Paddy, Bev, Barbara, Mark, and others: Thank you, Paddy, for your post of Sat March 6, 1999 re the potential familial connection of the three original Loyalist DAVIS families in Southern Ontario. Interesting, though, that our local list, NIAGARA-ONT-L, apparently has no interest in these DAVIS families. I can't remember if I brought up this subject with Carmine but I do know that on Jan 26, 1999 I raised this very question (for exactly the same reason) and got nada, then tried again on Feb 24 with a more toned down approach, with the same result. The combination of the information you supplied with the information I already have makes an extremely strong circumstantial case for Robert(b. c1735), Thaddeus(b. c1737) and William(b. Dec 23,1741) being brothers, and I'll get into that in a bit. But do we really care? Like you said, airy fairy stuff... I care, because I'm expecting to find a prior relationship, possibly a dozen generations old, between a certain group of DAVIS's, a certain group of HALL's, and a certain group of NEVILLS's who will all turn out to be my ancestors. Yes, as you pointed out, that is already the case. But I am talking about Colonial America, not Canada, something pre-existing let us say 1740. It is precisely my point that my NEVILLS, anyway, behaved almost predictably in the matter of intermixed marriages. I know my own mother's attitudes toward certain families, and we're not talking money here; we're talking politics and roots. This kind of thinking has been passed down in my family for AT LEAST 300 years. Schoharie/Albany, for our group of Nevills was a jumping off point, not a point of origin, and I am more and more convinced that the the same can be said for the sojourn in New Jersey. The James Nevel, agent for William Penn, discussion drew me away for a while. It, after all, would explain my branches apparent preoccupation with selectively marrying German or High Dutch, and Huegenot families. I haven't actually counted them but I would venture to say that only 20% of the Nevills marriages in my branch between 1775- 1850 were actually to ethnic groups other than these (and I include English / Scotch / Welsh in the 20%). In the grand scheme of things, however, 75 years is not a long time. There are several reasons why this could just as easily have been a temporary glitch, atypical behavior but appropriate for the time and circumstances. So I'm back to pondering the two most likely places, Virginia and Maryland. I had pretty much ruled out the latter because YOUR family was from there and because you seemed to be fairly convinced that our families, your's and mine were not proveably connected. After all, I reasoned, if you hadn't found anything there, was there a point to my trying? That leaves Virginia. An original idea. Heck, my father was telling people 45 years ago that his wife's family was originally from Virginia. He had had the opportunity many years ago to "interview" the gentleman (long deceased) whom Dad referred to as "the Nevills historian", Dr Judson Nevills. Jud is "famous" in our family for at least four "stories", as follows: 1/ that Thomas James (son of Abraham) was killed by lightning (I smile every time I see that on someone's Family Group sheet). 2/ that James and Eve's arduous trek to Canada, complete with Indian guide and pony, included a stop at an Indian village at a point about two days from Fort Niagara when their food supplies had been utterly exhausted. James, the story goes, was invited to compete in a footrace with several braves, which he won. His prize? A "johnnycake" [Note: probably made from corn] which sustained them for the rest of the trip. 3/ that Abraham's wife was named Deborah VanKeuren. [Dad, incidentally still stubbornly sticks to this belief and I stopped belabouring the question years ago.] My father vividly recalls the conversation he had with Judson word for word and it went like this: DAD: "And do you recall Deborah's maiden name?" JUDSON: "I believe she was a VanKeuren girl..." Dad deduced that her name was VanKeuren because that was the question he had asked. In some recent research I was doing of Nevills in Scoharie County NY (and of the most interesting website suggested by a listmember) I chanced to come across a little town just south of Poughkeepsie on the Hudson - Van Keurens. Now I wonder...was Judson talking about the surname or the town?? Her name, of course was Deborah Ostrander, and they were from that neck of the woods. 4/ that the Nevills progenitor of OUR line in America arrived early to mid 1600's and settled in Virginia. When I factor in the point of view of Abraham's son, William, that we should be looking for a William (of York) and/or a Sir Thomas Neville (Incidentally, does anybody out there happen to have Familytreemaker CD 202 who is willing to do a lookup on this last guy?) I STILL like my chances in Nansemond VA // Halifax or Orange Co. NC. You've really got me baffled now, Paddy. You're stating that your line also has links to the DAVIS surname. Are the Davis's you mentioned somehow connected to mine in Baltimore MD // Orange Co. NC? Sorry, I guess that was your question. Anyway, some observations on and additions to your original post: 1/ Robert DAVIS (b. c1735) may have been born near Baltimore MD, but he died in Little Rock, Orange County, NC., and it was his death, around 1781, that gave impetus to the decision made by his widow, Jane, and half of their children to move shortly thereafter to Upper Canada. 2/ Robert Davis had 5 other children besides 1764Thomas (the youngest, the one who ultimately had all those kids, probably all born in Canada, whom you mentioned including Pamela DAVIS). Thomas' siblings were: Edgewick m. James Derickson Ann m. Thomas Bowles John b. c1755 d. in 1827 s.p. This is the John Davis we read about in the early Niagara returns. His wife was Mary, probably a ROBBINS. His will was probated in Windham Twp. Robert Jr the oldest boy, asserted at c1755John's probate proceedings that he owed Mary money. He may not have ever been married. James the youngest, spent a few years, probably 12, with c1755John in Canada but returned to NC about 1795) 3/ William Davis is also said to have been born on the plantation near Baltimore MD. When he married a girl from Yorktown, VA, he and that girl, Hannah Phillips, also settled in Orange Co. NC where their seven children were born. William, Hannah, and family made the trek to Canada in 1792, about 10 years later than his "nephew", John, above (most likely because Hannah didn't want to leave). The matter was probably ultimately decided because of a promotion given to a close personal friend of both the Davis's and the Phillips, JG Simcoe, who's biography I won't look up, but, suffice to say, includes a posting of several years in the lower Virginia area as an officer of one of the British Regiments, the 5th of Foot, I think. Lt Col. John Graves Simcoe became the first Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada in 1792. Simcoe sent a gunboat to pick them up upon their arrival at the mouth of the Genesee River. Upon Hannah's death in 1794 William and family moved to Mount Albion, not far from another "nephew", 1764Thomas. 4/ I accept your information that 1764Thomas was married to Deborah Hall, daughter of James and Mary Hall. I didn't have that. I do know that c1737Thaddeus was also married to a Deborah Hall, this one born on 28 Oct., 1735. I'm willing to bet that James Hall had a sister, Deborah, (who married Thad) and she became the reason that James and Mary named one of their daughters "Deborah" (who later married 1764Thomas). When you put this beside the fact that between 1803 -1826 my Nevills's married into, purchased land from, named children after, and were buried near to those of c1737Thaddeus' lines of DAVIS and HALL, and, in 1834 married into 1764Thomas' line of DAVIS and HALL, yes, I'd say we're getting pretty close to establishing that these two, and, in fact all three Loyalist DAVIS's were in reality the same line. Incidentally,the reason I know 1741William Davis is because his descendants intermarried with my FATHER's ancestors - the CLINE's, the BROUSE's (BROWSE's),and ultimately the PETTIT's. I just this minute read your most recent post asking about the DAVIS's mentioned in Nathaniel Pettit's 1796 petition. I believe that the John, Robert, and Thomas DAVIS mentioned there are the same guys (c1755John, Robert Jr, and 1764Thomas) I've been overly verbose about above. So, yes, as nephews of c1737Thaddeus DAVIS Sr (my 5x great grandfather) they are all related to me. Paul Bingle Brampton, Ontario, CANADA E-mail: [email protected]