Patricia, Some of my Nevels have also been rather insular. Sounds like a good case for my group and yours being related <g>. I have a Nevels cousin who says he has noticed the trait of arrogance, too, every time his wife points it out to him. I don't know what the terms "Old Dutch" and "Black Dutch" mean -- a good question for the KY Explorer. I will forward the Nevils discussion directly to you since it has already been on the list. Jan