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  1. 04/07/2017 08:57:51
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. BARBARA GORDON-LANTTO
    3. Actually it was some professional test recently ( double-blinded).The conclusion was that all Cherokee do it; ( ie; pronounce the r that is not there.)Caused by some unknown inborn qwirk. It remains a mystery. I have many credentials etc. and I am a curious Reader with ..a hungry thirst for knowledge. Cherokee is not the people's original name My linage goes back to her, what ever you call her.( 4th Great grandmother) My entire linage goes back to Ancient Israel Thanks for the lesson. Chief Red Bird SMITH is also interesting. I have never ask my Elder. But I may. Part of The Tuckahoe question has been answered and updated with DNA results, incase you are interested. The one thing that intrigue's me is that Thomas Jefferson grew up on the "TUCKAHOE PLANTATION" ON THE JAMES RIVER. He was Native American, probably Shawnee-Powhatan-Cherokee His sister married an NA. Still to this day, the Cherokee hide much, for good reason.... And sometimes I simply chat. BARB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Hawkins" <vhawkins1952@msn.com> To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > I am quite certain the Cherokee know how to pronunce their own words. > There is NO "r" sound in the Cherkee language. Even the word "Cherokee" is > represented by characters that look similar to GWY in the syllabry, or -- > G (tsa) W (la) Y (ghee) -- or "Tsa-la-ghee". I hope you are implying some > interpreter mispronounced her name and called her Wertuh rather than > Wut-teh or Wu-te-he, I suspect that's what happened,but who can know? I > am not farmiliar with people adding an imaginary "r" sound randomly. > Sorry, but I say Wa-shing-ton -- never tried to add an imaginary "r". I > didn't know that was a common practice, but I've never lived in Washington > D. C. Maybe that's an Eastern thing that never caught on elsewhere. I did > live in/near Tacoma, Washington, and I can tell you the people there know > how to pronounce the name of their own state correctly. best wishes vh > > From: barbgolant@msn.com > > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:39:08 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > > > There is a story about that "r" in the Cherokee pronouncement of words. > > Like > > I do the same thing with Washington. > > Try as I may I say Warshington. And I live in Warshington. > > But, that story is just a story. It does not count It does not mean > > anything. Right? > > Do you pronounce that "r" that is not there ? > > > > BARB > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vance Hawkins" <vhawkins1952@msn.com> > > To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 11:17 AM > > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > > > > > > I know Mr Walker suggested the same in his book. But he was trusting > > > Dr. > > > Tankersley's accounts online, and they are not proven to be true. He > > > has > > > been proven to be in error on many things. I haven't looked at his > > > website > > > in a long time, though -- maybe he has corrected some of the mistakes. > > > But > > > I don't think Aaron Brock was Cherokee. There was a Jesse Brock who > > > lived > > > close to my Waylands in SW Virginia in a well known and well > > > documented > > > Melungeon Community. They were called "the FRIENDLY Indians who > > > helped > > > build Fort Blackmore". It was said of them they lost their language as > > > well. The Cherokee have never lost their language, although its usage > > > is > > > waning. The Cherokee also were NOT friendly to the settlers in those > > > days. > > > The only Indians that fit that bill are the Catawba and their > > > associated > > > bands (Saponi, Saura, and others). I suspect there were mixed race > > > families in S Ky, maybe some were mixed-Cherokee and some > > > mixed-Catawba. > > > But they wre not a lost band of any tribe ! > > > -- just mixed-bloods who chose to assimilate at an early date hoping > > > that > > > by assimilating, it would help them provide a better life for their > > > children. I have a copy of just about everything that has ben written > > > about Sequoyah (still looking for a few things) -- never heard of > > > anything > > > connecting him with any Brocks. All but one researcher said Sequoyah's > > > mother was full blood Indian, and this includes several people who > > > knew > > > him personally. Out of maybe 5 or 10 sources, many of which knew > > > Sequoyah > > > personally, ONE researcher said he was a Watts (a researcher that > > > didn't > > > know him personally) now that erroneous version is spread all over the > > > internet, and people forget the others whose description is far more > > > reliable! Early accounts call his mother Wut-teh, I don't know who > > > inserted the "r", but someone did. No Cherokee word ends with a > > > consonant > > > sound per Sequoyah's syllabry. The Cherokee Nation website calls her > > > "Wu-te-he". I used to email Dr. Tankersley and we'd argue. ! > > > At that time he had Red Bird being killed in 1811 at the "Yahoo Falls > > > Massacre" on his website, but I found those documents that said that > > > particular Red Bird died in 1797 and forwarded them to him. He never > > > said > > > "thank you" -- never responded to me about it after that. But he did > > > change his website from saying he was killed at Yahoo Falls Massacre > > > in > > > 1811 (a fictional event that never happened, either) to the truth -- > > > that > > > he died in 1797 (I'm fairly certain it was 1797 -- but I am not 100 > > > percent certain). He also falsely said Sequoyah was less than 1/4th > > > Cherokee when people who met him said he looked full blood and if he > > > had > > > any White blood, it wasn't much. An article written in "The Cherokee > > > Phoenix" (written in Cherokee in Sequoyah's sylabry and English) and > > > it > > > only said Sequoyah's paternal grandfather (not father) was a white > > > man. > > > That article was written while he was still alive (?1824 I think? I'll > > > look it up), and he read it. There was a Red Bird (NEVER called > > > "Chief" -- > > > just an ordinary Indian) who was killed on a hunting trip in So! > > > uthern Kentucky in 1797 I think it was -- but it has been years since > > > I > > > looked into that so I might have forgotten the right year. But he has > > > not > > > been proven to have had anything to do with the Brock's either. I have > > > a > > > great deal of documentation about this. But history has many men > > > called > > > "Red Bird" amongst the Cherokee. In fact the Principle Chief of the > > > Cherokee (if he is still in office, I think he is) is Chadwick "Red > > > Bird" > > > Smith. A famous Cherokee named "Red Bird" was a Keetowah aka "Pin" > > > Indian -- Union sympathizer during the American Civil War. These Pins > > > were > > > traditionalists (mostly full bloods) and many early traditions and > > > dances > > > would have been forgotten had not these traditionailsts revived them. > > > "Red > > > Bird" was a leader of these Pin Indians. And there was that earlier > > > "Red > > > Bird" who signed that treaty Dr. Tankersley was claiming as his > > > ancestor. > > > But there is no evidence he has ever shown to connect the Brock's to > > > this > > > person. But he is clearly NOT the same Red ! > > > Bird killed in 1797! If he has any evidence, he should provide it. I > > > can believe "by faith" in Jesus, but for everything else, I want > > > evidence > > > of some kind. Notice I am careful to say he has provided no evidence > > > there > > > is a connection -- and not that there is no connection. It seems odd > > > that > > > I should have to tell a man with a PhD (Dr. Tankersley) that his > > > genealogical research lacks rigor, but it does. best wishes -- Vance > > > > > > > From: bjreece@bellsouth.net > > > > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:06:03 -0500 > > > > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > > > > > > > Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. > > > > There > > > > is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief > > > > Red > > > > Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any > > > > relative > > > > to > > > > the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please > > > > provide > > > > resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > > > > > > > Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I > > > > am > > > > suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half > > > > brother > > > > of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions > > > > of > > > > related names. > > > > > > > > or Barbgolant@msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    01/26/2013 11:20:01
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. Vance Hawkins
    3. I am quite certain the Cherokee know how to pronunce their own words. There is NO "r" sound in the Cherkee language. Even the word "Cherokee" is represented by characters that look similar to GWY in the syllabry, or -- G (tsa) W (la) Y (ghee) -- or "Tsa-la-ghee". I hope you are implying some interpreter mispronounced her name and called her Wertuh rather than Wut-teh or Wu-te-he, I suspect that's what happened,but who can know? I am not farmiliar with people adding an imaginary "r" sound randomly. Sorry, but I say Wa-shing-ton -- never tried to add an imaginary "r". I didn't know that was a common practice, but I've never lived in Washington D. C. Maybe that's an Eastern thing that never caught on elsewhere. I did live in/near Tacoma, Washington, and I can tell you the people there know how to pronounce the name of their own state correctly. best wishes vh > From: barbgolant@msn.com > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:39:08 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > There is a story about that "r" in the Cherokee pronouncement of words. Like > I do the same thing with Washington. > Try as I may I say Warshington. And I live in Warshington. > But, that story is just a story. It does not count It does not mean > anything. Right? > Do you pronounce that "r" that is not there ? > > BARB > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vance Hawkins" <vhawkins1952@msn.com> > To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > > > I know Mr Walker suggested the same in his book. But he was trusting Dr. > > Tankersley's accounts online, and they are not proven to be true. He has > > been proven to be in error on many things. I haven't looked at his website > > in a long time, though -- maybe he has corrected some of the mistakes. But > > I don't think Aaron Brock was Cherokee. There was a Jesse Brock who lived > > close to my Waylands in SW Virginia in a well known and well documented > > Melungeon Community. They were called "the FRIENDLY Indians who helped > > build Fort Blackmore". It was said of them they lost their language as > > well. The Cherokee have never lost their language, although its usage is > > waning. The Cherokee also were NOT friendly to the settlers in those days. > > The only Indians that fit that bill are the Catawba and their associated > > bands (Saponi, Saura, and others). I suspect there were mixed race > > families in S Ky, maybe some were mixed-Cherokee and some mixed-Catawba. > > But they wre not a lost band of any tribe ! > > -- just mixed-bloods who chose to assimilate at an early date hoping that > > by assimilating, it would help them provide a better life for their > > children. I have a copy of just about everything that has ben written > > about Sequoyah (still looking for a few things) -- never heard of anything > > connecting him with any Brocks. All but one researcher said Sequoyah's > > mother was full blood Indian, and this includes several people who knew > > him personally. Out of maybe 5 or 10 sources, many of which knew Sequoyah > > personally, ONE researcher said he was a Watts (a researcher that didn't > > know him personally) now that erroneous version is spread all over the > > internet, and people forget the others whose description is far more > > reliable! Early accounts call his mother Wut-teh, I don't know who > > inserted the "r", but someone did. No Cherokee word ends with a consonant > > sound per Sequoyah's syllabry. The Cherokee Nation website calls her > > "Wu-te-he". I used to email Dr. Tankersley and we'd argue. ! > > At that time he had Red Bird being killed in 1811 at the "Yahoo Falls > > Massacre" on his website, but I found those documents that said that > > particular Red Bird died in 1797 and forwarded them to him. He never said > > "thank you" -- never responded to me about it after that. But he did > > change his website from saying he was killed at Yahoo Falls Massacre in > > 1811 (a fictional event that never happened, either) to the truth -- that > > he died in 1797 (I'm fairly certain it was 1797 -- but I am not 100 > > percent certain). He also falsely said Sequoyah was less than 1/4th > > Cherokee when people who met him said he looked full blood and if he had > > any White blood, it wasn't much. An article written in "The Cherokee > > Phoenix" (written in Cherokee in Sequoyah's sylabry and English) and it > > only said Sequoyah's paternal grandfather (not father) was a white man. > > That article was written while he was still alive (?1824 I think? I'll > > look it up), and he read it. There was a Red Bird (NEVER called "Chief" -- > > just an ordinary Indian) who was killed on a hunting trip in So! > > uthern Kentucky in 1797 I think it was -- but it has been years since I > > looked into that so I might have forgotten the right year. But he has not > > been proven to have had anything to do with the Brock's either. I have a > > great deal of documentation about this. But history has many men called > > "Red Bird" amongst the Cherokee. In fact the Principle Chief of the > > Cherokee (if he is still in office, I think he is) is Chadwick "Red Bird" > > Smith. A famous Cherokee named "Red Bird" was a Keetowah aka "Pin" > > Indian -- Union sympathizer during the American Civil War. These Pins were > > traditionalists (mostly full bloods) and many early traditions and dances > > would have been forgotten had not these traditionailsts revived them. "Red > > Bird" was a leader of these Pin Indians. And there was that earlier "Red > > Bird" who signed that treaty Dr. Tankersley was claiming as his ancestor. > > But there is no evidence he has ever shown to connect the Brock's to this > > person. But he is clearly NOT the same Red ! > > Bird killed in 1797! If he has any evidence, he should provide it. I > > can believe "by faith" in Jesus, but for everything else, I want evidence > > of some kind. Notice I am careful to say he has provided no evidence there > > is a connection -- and not that there is no connection. It seems odd that > > I should have to tell a man with a PhD (Dr. Tankersley) that his > > genealogical research lacks rigor, but it does. best wishes -- Vance > > > From: bjreece@bellsouth.net > > > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:06:03 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > > > > > Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. > > > There > > > is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief Red > > > Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any relative > > > to > > > the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please provide > > > resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > > > > > Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am > > > suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half > > > brother > > > of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of > > > related names. > > > > > > or Barbgolant@msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    01/26/2013 08:00:08
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] brown
    2. Joyce Gaston Reece
    3. If this Roane County, Tennessee Court case is chaotic then how about you present a document that proves that it isn't factual which is what your email implied? This isn't from an 'American History Book'. It is a primary resource document concerning the Brown family and the Cherokee Indians as presented by the Roane Co., TN Heritage Commission at www.roanetnheritage.com It is a direct transcript from a court case in that county. It is up to each genealogical researcher to sort out the fact from the fiction in their personal family history. If we accept that 'Columbus discovered American' then we haven't done our job as researchers. If we accept ANY kind of incorrect information then we sure haven't done our job. Genealogy and history are subjects that are based in absolute facts and preponderance of evidence that points toward these facts. It is not genealogy nor is it history if it is based on theories assimilated from incorrect information given by people like Tankersley who began this entire Red Bird myth. I suppose you never read the one sentence that stated that the theory will likely NEVER be proven. When one understands this concept they can be genealogists. When one doesn't continually espouse myths and legends that have no basis in actual fact then, perhaps, they can begin to learn what it is to be a genealogist and historical researcher. Joyce Gaston Reece

    01/25/2013 08:47:42
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. Joyce Gaston Reece
    3. Bless your heart Vance. It's good to hear someone with knowledge such as your's speak on this subject. There is a few of us who have beaten our heads against a brick wall for years and years trying to either get these 'believers' to provide some documentation or to cease saying they have it or telling the tale. These people who continually spout this myth never learn that genealogy and mythology aren't the same thing. I do have basic information on Browns reservations and I do believe I sent that to you a few months ago when we last communicated. I do hope you know that I have 'preserved' a lot of the communications we had a few years ago....they're that good. Do you have the Memoir's of Catherine Brown? If not I can send those. Joyce Gaston Reece -----Original Message----- From: Vance Hawkins Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:17 PM To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's I know Mr Walker suggested the same in his book. But he was trusting Dr. Tankersley's accounts online, and they are not proven to be true. He has been proven to be in error on many things. I haven't looked at his website in a long time, though -- maybe he has corrected some of the mistakes. But I don't think Aaron Brock was Cherokee. There was a Jesse Brock who lived close to my Waylands in SW Virginia in a well known and well documented Melungeon Community. They were called "the FRIENDLY Indians who helped build Fort Blackmore". It was said of them they lost their language as well. The Cherokee have never lost their language, although its usage is waning. The Cherokee also were NOT friendly to the settlers in those days. The only Indians that fit that bill are the Catawba and their associated bands (Saponi, Saura, and others). I suspect there were mixed race families in S Ky, maybe some were mixed-Cherokee and some mixed-Catawba. But they wre not a lost band of any tribe ! -- just mixed-bloods who chose to assimilate at an early date hoping that by assimilating, it would help them provide a better life for their children. I have a copy of just about everything that has ben written about Sequoyah (still looking for a few things) -- never heard of anything connecting him with any Brocks. All but one researcher said Sequoyah's mother was full blood Indian, and this includes several people who knew him personally. Out of maybe 5 or 10 sources, many of which knew Sequoyah personally, ONE researcher said he was a Watts (a researcher that didn't know him personally) now that erroneous version is spread all over the internet, and people forget the others whose description is far more reliable! Early accounts call his mother Wut-teh, I don't know who inserted the "r", but someone did. No Cherokee word ends with a consonant sound per Sequoyah's syllabry. The Cherokee Nation website calls her "Wu-te-he". I used to email Dr. Tankersley and we'd argue. ! At that time he had Red Bird being killed in 1811 at the "Yahoo Falls Massacre" on his website, but I found those documents that said that particular Red Bird died in 1797 and forwarded them to him. He never said "thank you" -- never responded to me about it after that. But he did change his website from saying he was killed at Yahoo Falls Massacre in 1811 (a fictional event that never happened, either) to the truth -- that he died in 1797 (I'm fairly certain it was 1797 -- but I am not 100 percent certain). He also falsely said Sequoyah was less than 1/4th Cherokee when people who met him said he looked full blood and if he had any White blood, it wasn't much. An article written in "The Cherokee Phoenix" (written in Cherokee in Sequoyah's sylabry and English) and it only said Sequoyah's paternal grandfather (not father) was a white man. That article was written while he was still alive (?1824 I think? I'll look it up), and he read it. There was a Red Bird (NEVER called "Chief" -- just an ordinary Indian) who was killed on a hunting trip in So! uthern Kentucky in 1797 I think it was -- but it has been years since I looked into that so I might have forgotten the right year. But he has not been proven to have had anything to do with the Brock's either. I have a great deal of documentation about this. But history has many men called "Red Bird" amongst the Cherokee. In fact the Principle Chief of the Cherokee (if he is still in office, I think he is) is Chadwick "Red Bird" Smith. A famous Cherokee named "Red Bird" was a Keetowah aka "Pin" Indian -- Union sympathizer during the American Civil War. These Pins were traditionalists (mostly full bloods) and many early traditions and dances would have been forgotten had not these traditionailsts revived them. "Red Bird" was a leader of these Pin Indians. And there was that earlier "Red Bird" who signed that treaty Dr. Tankersley was claiming as his ancestor. But there is no evidence he has ever shown to connect the Brock's to this person. But he is clearly NOT the same Red ! Bird killed in 1797! If he has any evidence, he should provide it. I can believe "by faith" in Jesus, but for everything else, I want evidence of some kind. Notice I am careful to say he has provided no evidence there is a connection -- and not that there is no connection. It seems odd that I should have to tell a man with a PhD (Dr. Tankersley) that his genealogical research lacks rigor, but it does. best wishes -- Vance > From: bjreece@bellsouth.net > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:06:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. There > is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief Red > Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any relative > to > the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please provide > resources. > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am > suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half > brother > of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of > related names. > > or Barbgolant@msn.com > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    01/25/2013 07:28:49
    1. [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] brown
    2. Joyce Gaston Reece
    3. Broom MONTGOMERY, Hugh, agent of the Cherokee Nation &c. vs. John BROWN - Circuit Court - 1832 ________________________________________ State of Tennessee, Roane County. In the Circuit Court March Term 1831. Hugh MONTGOMERY, agent for the Cherokee Nation, Successor of Joseph Mc MINN, Successor of Return J. MEIGS, deceased, late agent of the Cherokee Nation, by his attorney complains of John BROWN in custody &c. of a plea of covenant broken. For that whereas, the said John BROWN, heretofore, to wit, on the first day of July 1817, at the Cherokee Agency in said county, executed and delivered to the said Return J. MEIGS, as agent of the Cherokee Nation, his certain covenant in writing Sealed with his seal, and now here to the court shown, bearing date the day and year last aforesaid, wherein and whereby, he the said defendant, as agent of William KELLY, did agree and bind himself that the negroes taken by said William KELLY from the BROOM, a Cherokee chief in the fall of the year 1813, that is to say Easter and Elyas or Esabella, should be returned to the said Return J. MEIGS, by the name and description of Colo. R.J. MEIGS, agent for the Cherokee Nation on or before the first day of September 1817, or two other negroes of equal value, at the valuation of Thomas N. CLARK, or the valuation of said CLARK in money. And the said plaintiff, in fact says, that afterwards, to wit, on the __ day of January 1823, the said Return J. MEIGS, to whom said negroes by the tenor and effect of said covenant, were to be delivered & before the same were delivered departed this life, to wit, in the county aforesaid; and afterwards, to wit, on the __ day of __ in the year __- the said Joseph McMINN was appointed successor of the said Return J. MEIGS deceased, as agent of the Cherokee Nation, and afterwards, and before the said negroes were delivered according to the tenor and effect of said covenant, to wit, on the __ day of ___ in the year ___ said Joseph McMINN departed this life, and the plaintiff on the __ day of ___ in the year ___ was appointed by the President of the United States, agent of the Cherokee Nation as successor of the said Joseph McMINN, successor of said Return J. MEIGS, and before the said negroes in the said covenant specified, were delivered to the said agent according to the tenor and effect thereof Whereby an action has accrued to said plaintiff, as successor of said Return J. MEIGS, agent of the Cherokee nation to have and demand from the said defendant the said negroes in the said covenant specified according to the tenor and effect of said covenant. Yet the said defendant did not, on the first day of September 1817, according to the tenor of the covenant, deliver the said negroes therein specified, nor two others of equal value, at the valuation of said CLARK in money to the said Return J. MEIGS as agent of the Cherokee Nation, or at any day after the said first day of September 1817, and before the death of the said Return J. MEIGS, nor did he deliver said negroes nor two others, nor their valuation in money as aforesaid to the said Joseph McMINN sucessor of said MEIGS, while he continued to be agent, nor has he delivered the said negroes nor two others, nor their valuation in money as aforesaid to the said plaintiff, since he became agent, according to the tenor and effects of the said convenant, and although often requested so to do, has not as yet delivered the said negroes, nor two others, nor their valuation in money aforesaid, to the plaintiff as agent as aforesaid, but so (torn) hath hitherto wholly neglected and refused, to the damage of the plaintiff (torn) 1500 dollars. Therefore he sues, and has pledges to prosecute it. MEIGS (torn). Hugh MONTGOMERY agent of the Cherokee Nation vs. John BROWN. The defendant by his attorney comes into court and craves(?) oyer(?) of the covenant declared on in the plaintiff's declaration, and it is read to him in the words and figures following, to wit, "I as the agent of William KELLY from the Broom, a Cherokee chief in the fall of the year 1813, that is to say Easteer and Elyas or Esabella, shall be returned to Colo. R.J. MEIGS agent for the cherokee nation, on or before the first day of Sept. next, or two other negroes of equal value, at the valuation of Thos. N. CLARK, or the valuation of said CLARK in money - To be delivered by the said MEIGS to the individual who claimed them in the nation when taken, or his giving good & sufficient security, that the property detained or vallue(?) thereof be redelivered to the said KELLY on his order or his Establishing his right & claim to the property so taken & title. Given under my hand this 1st day of July 1817. John BROWN (Seal). Test. Andrew JACKSON." All of which being read and heard by said defendant he, by his attorney comes and defends the wrong and injury when &c. and says that the said plaintiffs declaration and the matters therein contained in manner and form as the same are therein stated and set forth, are not sufficient in law for the said Hugh MONTGOMERY to have or maintain his aforesaid action thereof against him, the said defendant, and that he the said defendant is not bound by the law of the land to answer the same and this he is ready to verify; wherefore for want of a sufficient declaration in this behalf, the said defendant prays judgment, and that said plaintiff may be banned from having or maintaining his aforesaid action thereof against him &c. T.L. WILLIAMS atto. Joyce Gaston Reece

    01/25/2013 06:21:16
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. Vance Hawkins
    3. I know Mr Walker suggested the same in his book. But he was trusting Dr. Tankersley's accounts online, and they are not proven to be true. He has been proven to be in error on many things. I haven't looked at his website in a long time, though -- maybe he has corrected some of the mistakes. But I don't think Aaron Brock was Cherokee. There was a Jesse Brock who lived close to my Waylands in SW Virginia in a well known and well documented Melungeon Community. They were called "the FRIENDLY Indians who helped build Fort Blackmore". It was said of them they lost their language as well. The Cherokee have never lost their language, although its usage is waning. The Cherokee also were NOT friendly to the settlers in those days. The only Indians that fit that bill are the Catawba and their associated bands (Saponi, Saura, and others). I suspect there were mixed race families in S Ky, maybe some were mixed-Cherokee and some mixed-Catawba. But they wre not a lost band of any tribe -- just mixed-bloods who chose to assimilate at an early date hoping that by assimilating, it would help them provide a better life for their children. I have a copy of just about everything that has ben written about Sequoyah (still looking for a few things) -- never heard of anything connecting him with any Brocks. All but one researcher said Sequoyah's mother was full blood Indian, and this includes several people who knew him personally. Out of maybe 5 or 10 sources, many of which knew Sequoyah personally, ONE researcher said he was a Watts (a researcher that didn't know him personally) now that erroneous version is spread all over the internet, and people forget the others whose description is far more reliable! Early accounts call his mother Wut-teh, I don't know who inserted the "r", but someone did. No Cherokee word ends with a consonant sound per Sequoyah's syllabry. The Cherokee Nation website calls her "Wu-te-he". I used to email Dr. Tankersley and we'd argue. At that time he had Red Bird being killed in 1811 at the "Yahoo Falls Massacre" on his website, but I found those documents that said that particular Red Bird died in 1797 and forwarded them to him. He never said "thank you" -- never responded to me about it after that. But he did change his website from saying he was killed at Yahoo Falls Massacre in 1811 (a fictional event that never happened, either) to the truth -- that he died in 1797 (I'm fairly certain it was 1797 -- but I am not 100 percent certain). He also falsely said Sequoyah was less than 1/4th Cherokee when people who met him said he looked full blood and if he had any White blood, it wasn't much. An article written in "The Cherokee Phoenix" (written in Cherokee in Sequoyah's sylabry and English) and it only said Sequoyah's paternal grandfather (not father) was a white man. That article was written while he was still alive (?1824 I think? I'll look it up), and he read it. There was a Red Bird (NEVER called "Chief" -- just an ordinary Indian) who was killed on a hunting trip in Southern Kentucky in 1797 I think it was -- but it has been years since I looked into that so I might have forgotten the right year. But he has not been proven to have had anything to do with the Brock's either. I have a great deal of documentation about this. But history has many men called "Red Bird" amongst the Cherokee. In fact the Principle Chief of the Cherokee (if he is still in office, I think he is) is Chadwick "Red Bird" Smith. A famous Cherokee named "Red Bird" was a Keetowah aka "Pin" Indian -- Union sympathizer during the American Civil War. These Pins were traditionalists (mostly full bloods) and many early traditions and dances would have been forgotten had not these traditionailsts revived them. "Red Bird" was a leader of these Pin Indians. And there was that earlier "Red Bird" who signed that treaty Dr. Tankersley was claiming as his ancestor. But there is no evidence he has ever shown to connect the Brock's to this person. But he is clearly NOT the same Red Bird killed in 1797! If he has any evidence, he should provide it. I can believe "by faith" in Jesus, but for everything else, I want evidence of some kind. Notice I am careful to say he has provided no evidence there is a connection -- and not that there is no connection. It seems odd that I should have to tell a man with a PhD (Dr. Tankersley) that his genealogical research lacks rigor, but it does. best wishes -- Vance > From: bjreece@bellsouth.net > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:06:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. There > is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief Red > Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any relative to > the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please provide > resources. > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am > suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half brother > of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of > related names. > > or Barbgolant@msn.com > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    01/25/2013 06:17:45
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. Joyce Gaston Reece
    3. Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. There is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief Red Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any relative to the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please provide resources. Joyce Gaston Reece Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half brother of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of related names. or Barbgolant@msn.com

    01/25/2013 06:06:03
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. BARBARA GORDON-LANTTO
    3. There is a story about that "r" in the Cherokee pronouncement of words. Like I do the same thing with Washington. Try as I may I say Warshington. And I live in Warshington. But, that story is just a story. It does not count It does not mean anything. Right? Do you pronounce that "r" that is not there ? BARB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Hawkins" <vhawkins1952@msn.com> To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > I know Mr Walker suggested the same in his book. But he was trusting Dr. > Tankersley's accounts online, and they are not proven to be true. He has > been proven to be in error on many things. I haven't looked at his website > in a long time, though -- maybe he has corrected some of the mistakes. But > I don't think Aaron Brock was Cherokee. There was a Jesse Brock who lived > close to my Waylands in SW Virginia in a well known and well documented > Melungeon Community. They were called "the FRIENDLY Indians who helped > build Fort Blackmore". It was said of them they lost their language as > well. The Cherokee have never lost their language, although its usage is > waning. The Cherokee also were NOT friendly to the settlers in those days. > The only Indians that fit that bill are the Catawba and their associated > bands (Saponi, Saura, and others). I suspect there were mixed race > families in S Ky, maybe some were mixed-Cherokee and some mixed-Catawba. > But they wre not a lost band of any tribe ! > -- just mixed-bloods who chose to assimilate at an early date hoping that > by assimilating, it would help them provide a better life for their > children. I have a copy of just about everything that has ben written > about Sequoyah (still looking for a few things) -- never heard of anything > connecting him with any Brocks. All but one researcher said Sequoyah's > mother was full blood Indian, and this includes several people who knew > him personally. Out of maybe 5 or 10 sources, many of which knew Sequoyah > personally, ONE researcher said he was a Watts (a researcher that didn't > know him personally) now that erroneous version is spread all over the > internet, and people forget the others whose description is far more > reliable! Early accounts call his mother Wut-teh, I don't know who > inserted the "r", but someone did. No Cherokee word ends with a consonant > sound per Sequoyah's syllabry. The Cherokee Nation website calls her > "Wu-te-he". I used to email Dr. Tankersley and we'd argue. ! > At that time he had Red Bird being killed in 1811 at the "Yahoo Falls > Massacre" on his website, but I found those documents that said that > particular Red Bird died in 1797 and forwarded them to him. He never said > "thank you" -- never responded to me about it after that. But he did > change his website from saying he was killed at Yahoo Falls Massacre in > 1811 (a fictional event that never happened, either) to the truth -- that > he died in 1797 (I'm fairly certain it was 1797 -- but I am not 100 > percent certain). He also falsely said Sequoyah was less than 1/4th > Cherokee when people who met him said he looked full blood and if he had > any White blood, it wasn't much. An article written in "The Cherokee > Phoenix" (written in Cherokee in Sequoyah's sylabry and English) and it > only said Sequoyah's paternal grandfather (not father) was a white man. > That article was written while he was still alive (?1824 I think? I'll > look it up), and he read it. There was a Red Bird (NEVER called "Chief" -- > just an ordinary Indian) who was killed on a hunting trip in So! > uthern Kentucky in 1797 I think it was -- but it has been years since I > looked into that so I might have forgotten the right year. But he has not > been proven to have had anything to do with the Brock's either. I have a > great deal of documentation about this. But history has many men called > "Red Bird" amongst the Cherokee. In fact the Principle Chief of the > Cherokee (if he is still in office, I think he is) is Chadwick "Red Bird" > Smith. A famous Cherokee named "Red Bird" was a Keetowah aka "Pin" > Indian -- Union sympathizer during the American Civil War. These Pins were > traditionalists (mostly full bloods) and many early traditions and dances > would have been forgotten had not these traditionailsts revived them. "Red > Bird" was a leader of these Pin Indians. And there was that earlier "Red > Bird" who signed that treaty Dr. Tankersley was claiming as his ancestor. > But there is no evidence he has ever shown to connect the Brock's to this > person. But he is clearly NOT the same Red ! > Bird killed in 1797! If he has any evidence, he should provide it. I > can believe "by faith" in Jesus, but for everything else, I want evidence > of some kind. Notice I am careful to say he has provided no evidence there > is a connection -- and not that there is no connection. It seems odd that > I should have to tell a man with a PhD (Dr. Tankersley) that his > genealogical research lacks rigor, but it does. best wishes -- Vance > > From: bjreece@bellsouth.net > > To: na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com > > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:06:03 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > > > > Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. > > There > > is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief Red > > Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any relative > > to > > the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please provide > > resources. > > > > > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > > > Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am > > suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half > > brother > > of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of > > related names. > > > > or Barbgolant@msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    01/25/2013 05:39:08
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] brown
    2. BARBARA GORDON-LANTTO
    3. What chaos. And according to our American History books: America was discovered. Two black Slaves could be returned by any two black slaves? Those People ( slaves) probably were already "in the Cherokee family" What is that old song? "Hang down your head John Brown"? BARB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce Gaston Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> Cc: <na-cherokee-nc@rootsweb.com>; <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:21 AM Subject: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] brown > Broom > MONTGOMERY, Hugh, agent of the Cherokee Nation &c. vs. John BROWN - > Circuit > Court - 1832 > ________________________________________ > State of Tennessee, Roane County. In the Circuit Court March Term 1831. > Hugh > MONTGOMERY, agent for the Cherokee Nation, Successor of Joseph Mc MINN, > Successor of Return J. MEIGS, deceased, late agent of the Cherokee Nation, > by his attorney complains of John BROWN in custody &c. of a plea of > covenant > broken. For that whereas, the said John BROWN, heretofore, to wit, on the > first day of July 1817, at the Cherokee Agency in said county, executed > and > delivered to the said Return J. MEIGS, as agent of the Cherokee Nation, > his > certain covenant in writing Sealed with his seal, and now here to the > court > shown, bearing date the day and year last aforesaid, wherein and whereby, > he > the said defendant, as agent of William KELLY, did agree and bind himself > that the negroes taken by said William KELLY from the BROOM, a Cherokee > chief in the fall of the year 1813, that is to say Easter and Elyas or > Esabella, should be returned to the said Return J. MEIGS, by the name and > description of Colo. R.J. MEIGS, agent for the Cherokee Nation on or > before > the first day of September 1817, or two other negroes of equal value, at > the > valuation of Thomas N. CLARK, or the valuation of said CLARK in money. And > the said plaintiff, in fact says, that afterwards, to wit, on the __ day > of > January 1823, the said Return J. MEIGS, to whom said negroes by the tenor > and effect of said covenant, were to be delivered & before the same were > delivered departed this life, to wit, in the county aforesaid; and > afterwards, to wit, on the __ day of __ in the year __- the said Joseph > McMINN was appointed successor of the said Return J. MEIGS deceased, as > agent of the Cherokee Nation, and afterwards, and before the said negroes > were delivered according to the tenor and effect of said covenant, to wit, > on the __ day of ___ in the year ___ said Joseph McMINN departed this > life, > and the plaintiff on the __ day of ___ in the year ___ was appointed by > the > President of the United States, agent of the Cherokee Nation as successor > of > the said Joseph McMINN, successor of said Return J. MEIGS, and before the > said negroes in the said covenant specified, were delivered to the said > agent according to the tenor and effect thereof Whereby an action has > accrued to said plaintiff, as successor of said Return J. MEIGS, agent of > the Cherokee nation to have and demand from the said defendant the said > negroes in the said covenant specified according to the tenor and effect > of > said covenant. Yet the said defendant did not, on the first day of > September > 1817, according to the tenor of the covenant, deliver the said negroes > therein specified, nor two others of equal value, at the valuation of said > CLARK in money to the said Return J. MEIGS as agent of the Cherokee > Nation, > or at any day after the said first day of September 1817, and before the > death of the said Return J. MEIGS, nor did he deliver said negroes nor two > others, nor their valuation in money as aforesaid to the said Joseph > McMINN > sucessor of said MEIGS, while he continued to be agent, nor has he > delivered > the said negroes nor two others, nor their valuation in money as aforesaid > to the said plaintiff, since he became agent, according to the tenor and > effects of the said convenant, and although often requested so to do, has > not as yet delivered the said negroes, nor two others, nor their valuation > in money aforesaid, to the plaintiff as agent as aforesaid, but so (torn) > hath hitherto wholly neglected and refused, to the damage of the plaintiff > (torn) 1500 dollars. Therefore he sues, and has pledges to prosecute it. > MEIGS (torn). > > Hugh MONTGOMERY agent of the Cherokee Nation vs. John BROWN. The defendant > by his attorney comes into court and craves(?) oyer(?) of the covenant > declared on in the plaintiff's declaration, and it is read to him in the > words and figures following, to wit, "I as the agent of William KELLY from > the Broom, a Cherokee chief in the fall of the year 1813, that is to say > Easteer and Elyas or Esabella, shall be returned to Colo. R.J. MEIGS agent > for the cherokee nation, on or before the first day of Sept. next, or two > other negroes of equal value, at the valuation of Thos. N. CLARK, or the > valuation of said CLARK in money - To be delivered by the said MEIGS to > the > individual who claimed them in the nation when taken, or his giving good & > sufficient security, that the property detained or vallue(?) thereof be > redelivered to the said KELLY on his order or his Establishing his right & > claim to the property so taken & title. Given under my hand this 1st day > of > July 1817. John BROWN (Seal). Test. Andrew JACKSON." All of which being > read > and heard by said defendant he, by his attorney comes and defends the > wrong > and injury when &c. and says that the said plaintiffs declaration and the > matters therein contained in manner and form as the same are therein > stated > and set forth, are not sufficient in law for the said Hugh MONTGOMERY to > have or maintain his aforesaid action thereof against him, the said > defendant, and that he the said defendant is not bound by the law of the > land to answer the same and this he is ready to verify; wherefore for want > of a sufficient declaration in this behalf, the said defendant prays > judgment, and that said plaintiff may be banned from having or maintaining > his aforesaid action thereof against him &c. T.L. WILLIAMS atto. > > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    01/25/2013 05:22:01
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. BARBARA GORDON-LANTTO
    3. Joyce, You and I also discussed:The same Situation. If it is not written in English , it never happened? Your dedication to the FEDS is unbelivable; Sort of the blind leading the blind. Barb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce Gaston Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's > Vance is well beyond believing that. We spoke about it years ago. There > is absolutely nothing that documents that Aaron Brock was ever Chief Red > Bird nor is there anything that documents that Sequoyah was any relative > to > the Brocks. If you have documentation that proves this please provide > resources. > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am > suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half > brother > of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of > related names. > > or Barbgolant@msn.com > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    01/25/2013 03:18:22
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. Joyce Gaston Reece
    3. Hi, Vance, You're doing some amazing work here. One piece of advice would be to check into a subscription to fold3 if you haven't already. They have some of the basic info on the Reservations. Return J. Meigs list is within the agency records there. We still have the ongoing project of working on these reservations. You can take one of two paths to learn about the Brown reservations. Mountain Press, I believe, still has available the book that James Douthit did from the Allen records. This is transcriptions and drawings of the reservations as found in the John Ross Papers. Survey records of Robert Armstrong. Penelope Johnson Allen purchased the Ross Papers from an estate sale. These papers contain the original Reservation information. They were donated to the Bicentennial library when she passed. They, fortunately, are also on microfilm. The index and the film is available at Tennessee State Library and Archives. There are 7 rolls of the Penelope Johnson Allen Collection that I REALLY wish we could get digitized. Getting the info from microfilm without a film printer would be almost impossible....even with a film printer it would still be a beast. I've often wondered if I could begin a fund to collect enough from interested parties to get the film digitized....I know I sure can't afford it *G*. Nor do I have that much time. We could digitize the data without infringing on a copyright but we couldn't publish it or anything. They have that locked down tight. We have the film at Monroe Co. ARchives. There is a person on another mail list...cherokeegene-request@rootsweb.com who is working on these same Browns. I am not sure about how knowledgeable she is but you might join that list and find out. Joyce Gaston Reece -----Original Message----- From: Vance Hawkins Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 9:27 AM To: NA-RESERVATION-ROLL@rootsweb.com Subject: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's Hello. My father was Alpha Hawkins (b. Tillman Co, Ok 1915-d. Jackson Co, Ok1992. Army Artillery in WW@ was in Hawaii, 25th Div. 1941, USA cadre 1942-44, 1944-45 3rd Army France, Belgium, Holland, 1945 Germany, England). His mother was Lona Richey (b. Denton Co, Tx 1883, to Pickens District (near present day Duncan, Stephens Co., Ok, Chickasaw Nation, Indian Territory 1889, was in Tillman Co, Ok by statehood (1907), where she lived the remainder of her life except for a stint in Kiowa Co (Snyder) in the 1940s, - d. 1963 Tillman Co., Ok). Loney's mother was Josephine Brown, b. Lawrence Co, Arkansas 1854. Married 1872 at which time they moved to the Ok/Ar border near Fort Smith, Ar in either Cherokee or Choctaw Nation (my ancestor said he didn't know which side of the rivewr they lived on), to Denton Co., Tx by 1880, to Chickasaw Nation 1889, IT/Ok d. 1932 Tillman Co, Ok. Her parents were David Brown ( b. Lawrence Co, Al, abt 1822, m. Shelby Co., Tn 1841, back to Lawrence Co, Al, to Lawrence Co, Ark 1848 per tax records; d. 1 May 1865, possibly in Lawrence Co., Ark -- he seems to have just disapeared from history. Last foound in any records as being parolled from POW camp after the battle of Corinth, Ms. Was in "Black River Rifles", Arkansas 8th Conf. His estate was probated and it said he died 1 May 1865) and Harriet Gist/Guess (b. E Tn. or N Al, posibly Lawrence Co, abt 1817 or 1818, to Shelby Co, Tn after 1830 before 1840, m. 1841, unk until 1848 when rtey appear in Lawrence County, Arkansas. She moved to Choctaw/Cherokee Nation abt 1872, d. Denton Co., Tx 1886.). There are TWO (that we have found so far) records that mentions her family as descending from an unknown brother of Sequoyah. Neither record is definitive proof going back to a primary source, but both are independent of each other. It is through David Brown that we have an interest in the Reservation Rolls. The following Brown's are listed as applying for land per the Reservation Rolls: Alexander, James, John, John Sr., John Jr., Polly, and William. John was said to have been 1/8th Cherokee and the other two were said to be father and son, but perhaps they just had the same name and one was substantially older than the other. The same website where these names are found sasys -- This is only an index of applicants, the people listed here did not in most instances receive the reservation they requested David's parents were John Brown and Mary Black (m. 1820 Lawrence Co, Al). John was b. location unknown btw 1780-1790 per 1840 census. Per 1830 census there was a John Brown b. btw 1760-1770. In both cases, there is a neighbor 2 doors down with identical stories. That is, there is a William Brown in 1840 census b. btw 1780-1790, with the 1830 census saying here was an older William Brown b. btw 1760-1770. Mary was b. abt 1801 in North Carolina per 1850-1860 census records in Lawrence County, Arkansas. She and the family moved to where David was sometme betwene 1850-1860 per census records. We have two other independent records of where our Gist ancestors knew people who knew John Brown of Brown's ferry near Chattanooga, Tn. Again, a distant connection but they are independent of each other. He is the John Brown said to have been 1/8th Cherokee. Northern Lawrence County, Ala borders the Tennessee River and there was also a Brown's Ferry located there on the Lawrence/Limestone County border. From "Doublehead, Last Chickamauga Cherokee Chief", also by Ricky Butch Walker, p 73, we have the following; Histotrical records indicate that Doublehead lived at his Chickamauga Indian town at Brown’s Ferry from the 1770s through December 1801. According to "History of Alabama by Albert James Picket (1851), "Dec. 1801: Emigrants flocked to the Mississippi Territory . . . constructing flat boats at Knoxville, they floated down the river to the head of the Muscle Shoals, where they disembarked at the house of Double-Head, a (p 74) Cherokee Chief." . . .>From Doublehead’s town, the Emigrants followed the Brown’s Ferry Road to Gourd’s Settlement (Courtland, Alabama) where it intersected with Gaine’s Trace. From "Land of the Lake, History of Campbell Co, Tn" by Ridenohour we have p. 34 -- Captain Cloud was active in the flatboat trade down the [Tennessee] river and was associated with the small group of men who played an important part in the settlement of the Mississippi River Valley. p 97 -- [speaking of the war of 1812] -- several Campbell County men under the direction of Captain Jason Cloud and the Haley’s built the retaining wall at Suck Creek on the Tennessee River to enable the flatboats to transport provisions to General Andrew Jackson's Army. The following excerpts are from "Footsteps of the Cherokee: A Guide to the Eastern Homelands of the Cherokee Nation", by Vicki Rozema, John F. Blair Publisher, Winston-Salem, North Carolina, 2nd edition, © copyright 2007 by Vicki Rozema. On page 66 is the following: Around 1800, John Brown, a mixed-blood Cherokee who became prominent in the area, ran a ferry across the Tennessee River at Williams Island. He was known as the best guide for navigating the treacherous waters at The Narrows and the Suck along the Tennessee River. This is important because earlier in the book, Ridenhour ALSO says (p 7-8 and is referring to the timeframe abt 1785)One 340 acre tract of land calls for a location on both sides Beaver dam Creek "including William Sharp’s improvement at Reed’s corner along a conditional line between William Sharp and John Brady on a cross fence down a small branch, thence along the fence twenty-nine poles striking the creek at a bent so up said creek to Miller’s line where John Guest (Gist) now lives." This John Gist was the son of an Indian trader and a Cherokee woman. He was kinsman of Sikwayi, or Sequoya, whose English name was George Gist, the inventor of the Cherokee alphabet of syllables. Years later Aaron Guest of Kentucky acknowledge the receipt of his part of "the estate of my father Aaron Guest, Deceased, where Jason Cloud and John Guest (Gist) were executors." Notice the time frame above was about 1785 when the land was first being surveyed. Also per both DNA tests and genealogical records, these are MY Gist's! Aaron Gist died Oct. 1801. Jason Cloud knew MY Gist's, and acording to Rozema and Walker's writings, Jason Cloud would have known the Brown's of both of the Brown's Ferry's, as well. Doublehead was an uncle or great uncle of Sequoyah, by the way. I took an autosomal DNA test in 2005 and it came back mostly Caucasian, but we do have a little sub-Sahara African and a little American Indian DNA as well. I would like to know more about the three John Brown's as well as William. Also all the other Brown's. Are they related? Were they assigned reservations? I wrote NARA in Fort Worth, I called them on the phone, and they REFUSED to send me copies of their records! And they confirmed they had these records! I offered to pay them and they still refused! I am very frustrated. Thank you for your time. I have no idea if any other messages have been posted or not but I didn't find any. Best wishes Vance Hawkins ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    01/25/2013 03:17:43
    1. Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. BARBARA GORDON-LANTTO
    3. Mr. Vance Your enclosed letter is fantastic. You may be a relative of mine. I am suggesting that you check out Aaron Brock, aka Chief Red Bird , half brother of Sequoya, son of WERTUH There definitely are simular suggestions of related names. In the 1800's many Cherokee were "dying because of what is currently referrred to as "Indian Wars". Sequoya had died in Mexico. The Cherokee had ask permission of the FEDS to move to move to Mexico. The government turned them down. And the Cherokee went to Mexico any way. Today they are the Cherokee of Mexico. http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/ Please do not hesitate to contact me. BARB Granddaughter of ROBERT LEE GORDON earthfeather99@yahoo.com or Barbgolant@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce Gaston Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <na-reservation-roll@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 7:17 AM Subject: Re: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's Hi, Vance, You're doing some amazing work here. One piece of advice would be to check into a subscription to fold3 if you haven't already. They have some of the basic info on the Reservations. Return J. Meigs list is within the agency records there. We still have the ongoing project of working on these reservations. You can take one of two paths to learn about the Brown reservations. Mountain Press, I believe, still has available the book that James Douthit did from the Allen records. This is transcriptions and drawings of the reservations as found in the John Ross Papers. Survey records of Robert Armstrong. Penelope Johnson Allen purchased the Ross Papers from an estate sale. These papers contain the original Reservation information. They were donated to the Bicentennial library when she passed. They, fortunately, are also on microfilm. The index and the film is available at Tennessee State Library and Archives. There are 7 rolls of the Penelope Johnson Allen Collection that I REALLY wish we could get digitized. Getting the info from microfilm without a film printer would be almost impossible....even with a film printer it would still be a beast. I've often wondered if I could begin a fund to collect enough from interested parties to get the film digitized....I know I sure can't afford it *G*. Nor do I have that much time. We could digitize the data without infringing on a copyright but we couldn't publish it or anything. They have that locked down tight. We have the film at Monroe Co. ARchives. There is a person on another mail list...cherokeegene-request@rootsweb.com who is working on these same Browns. I am not sure about how knowledgeable she is but you might join that list and find out. Joyce Gaston Reece -----Original Message----- From: Vance Hawkins Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 9:27 AM To: NA-RESERVATION-ROLL@rootsweb.com Subject: [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's Hello. My father was Alpha Hawkins (b. Tillman Co, Ok 1915-d. Jackson Co, Ok1992. Army Artillery in WW@ was in Hawaii, 25th Div. 1941, USA cadre 1942-44, 1944-45 3rd Army France, Belgium, Holland, 1945 Germany, England). His mother was Lona Richey (b. Denton Co, Tx 1883, to Pickens District (near present day Duncan, Stephens Co., Ok, Chickasaw Nation, Indian Territory 1889, was in Tillman Co, Ok by statehood (1907), where she lived the remainder of her life except for a stint in Kiowa Co (Snyder) in the 1940s, - d. 1963 Tillman Co., Ok). Loney's mother was Josephine Brown, b. Lawrence Co, Arkansas 1854. Married 1872 at which time they moved to the Ok/Ar border near Fort Smith, Ar in either Cherokee or Choctaw Nation (my ancestor said he didn't know which side of the rivewr they lived on), to Denton Co., Tx by 1880, to Chickasaw Nation 1889, IT/Ok d. 1932 Tillman Co, Ok. Her parents were David Brown ( b. Lawrence Co, Al, abt 1822, m. Shelby Co., Tn 1841, back to Lawrence Co, Al, to Lawrence Co, Ark 1848 per tax records; d. 1 May 1865, possibly in Lawrence Co., Ark -- he seems to have just disapeared from history. Last foound in any records as being parolled from POW camp after the battle of Corinth, Ms. Was in "Black River Rifles", Arkansas 8th Conf. His estate was probated and it said he died 1 May 1865) and Harriet Gist/Guess (b. E Tn. or N Al, posibly Lawrence Co, abt 1817 or 1818, to Shelby Co, Tn after 1830 before 1840, m. 1841, unk until 1848 when rtey appear in Lawrence County, Arkansas. She moved to Choctaw/Cherokee Nation abt 1872, d. Denton Co., Tx 1886.). There are TWO (that we have found so far) records that mentions her family as descending from an unknown brother of Sequoyah. Neither record is definitive proof going back to a primary source, but both are independent of each other. It is through David Brown that we have an interest in the Reservation Rolls. The following Brown's are listed as applying for land per the Reservation Rolls: Alexander, James, John, John Sr., John Jr., Polly, and William. John was said to have been 1/8th Cherokee and the other two were said to be father and son, but perhaps they just had the same name and one was substantially older than the other. The same website where these names are found sasys -- This is only an index of applicants, the people listed here did not in most instances receive the reservation they requested David's parents were John Brown and Mary Black (m. 1820 Lawrence Co, Al). John was b. location unknown btw 1780-1790 per 1840 census. Per 1830 census there was a John Brown b. btw 1760-1770. In both cases, there is a neighbor 2 doors down with identical stories. That is, there is a William Brown in 1840 census b. btw 1780-1790, with the 1830 census saying here was an older William Brown b. btw 1760-1770. Mary was b. abt 1801 in North Carolina per 1850-1860 census records in Lawrence County, Arkansas. She and the family moved to where David was sometme betwene 1850-1860 per census records. We have two other independent records of where our Gist ancestors knew people who knew John Brown of Brown's ferry near Chattanooga, Tn. Again, a distant connection but they are independent of each other. He is the John Brown said to have been 1/8th Cherokee. Northern Lawrence County, Ala borders the Tennessee River and there was also a Brown's Ferry located there on the Lawrence/Limestone County border. From "Doublehead, Last Chickamauga Cherokee Chief", also by Ricky Butch Walker, p 73, we have the following; Histotrical records indicate that Doublehead lived at his Chickamauga Indian town at Brown’s Ferry from the 1770s through December 1801. According to "History of Alabama by Albert James Picket (1851), "Dec. 1801: Emigrants flocked to the Mississippi Territory . . . constructing flat boats at Knoxville, they floated down the river to the head of the Muscle Shoals, where they disembarked at the house of Double-Head, a (p 74) Cherokee Chief." . . .>From Doublehead’s town, the Emigrants followed the Brown’s Ferry Road to Gourd’s Settlement (Courtland, Alabama) where it intersected with Gaine’s Trace. From "Land of the Lake, History of Campbell Co, Tn" by Ridenohour we have p. 34 -- Captain Cloud was active in the flatboat trade down the [Tennessee] river and was associated with the small group of men who played an important part in the settlement of the Mississippi River Valley. p 97 -- [speaking of the war of 1812] -- several Campbell County men under the direction of Captain Jason Cloud and the Haley’s built the retaining wall at Suck Creek on the Tennessee River to enable the flatboats to transport provisions to General Andrew Jackson's Army. The following excerpts are from "Footsteps of the Cherokee: A Guide to the Eastern Homelands of the Cherokee Nation", by Vicki Rozema, John F. Blair Publisher, Winston-Salem, North Carolina, 2nd edition, © copyright 2007 by Vicki Rozema. On page 66 is the following: Around 1800, John Brown, a mixed-blood Cherokee who became prominent in the area, ran a ferry across the Tennessee River at Williams Island. He was known as the best guide for navigating the treacherous waters at The Narrows and the Suck along the Tennessee River. This is important because earlier in the book, Ridenhour ALSO says (p 7-8 and is referring to the timeframe abt 1785)One 340 acre tract of land calls for a location on both sides Beaver dam Creek "including William Sharp’s improvement at Reed’s corner along a conditional line between William Sharp and John Brady on a cross fence down a small branch, thence along the fence twenty-nine poles striking the creek at a bent so up said creek to Miller’s line where John Guest (Gist) now lives." This John Gist was the son of an Indian trader and a Cherokee woman. He was kinsman of Sikwayi, or Sequoya, whose English name was George Gist, the inventor of the Cherokee alphabet of syllables. Years later Aaron Guest of Kentucky acknowledge the receipt of his part of "the estate of my father Aaron Guest, Deceased, where Jason Cloud and John Guest (Gist) were executors." Notice the time frame above was about 1785 when the land was first being surveyed. Also per both DNA tests and genealogical records, these are MY Gist's! Aaron Gist died Oct. 1801. Jason Cloud knew MY Gist's, and acording to Rozema and Walker's writings, Jason Cloud would have known the Brown's of both of the Brown's Ferry's, as well. Doublehead was an uncle or great uncle of Sequoyah, by the way. I took an autosomal DNA test in 2005 and it came back mostly Caucasian, but we do have a little sub-Sahara African and a little American Indian DNA as well. I would like to know more about the three John Brown's as well as William. Also all the other Brown's. Are they related? Were they assigned reservations? I wrote NARA in Fort Worth, I called them on the phone, and they REFUSED to send me copies of their records! And they confirmed they had these records! I offered to pay them and they still refused! I am very frustrated. Thank you for your time. I have no idea if any other messages have been posted or not but I didn't find any. Best wishes Vance Hawkins ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NA-RESERVATION-ROLL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    01/25/2013 02:53:26
    1. [NA-RESERVATION-ROLL] Brown's
    2. Vance Hawkins
    3. Hello. My father was Alpha Hawkins (b. Tillman Co, Ok 1915-d. Jackson Co, Ok1992. Army Artillery in WW@ was in Hawaii, 25th Div. 1941, USA cadre 1942-44, 1944-45 3rd Army France, Belgium, Holland, 1945 Germany, England). His mother was Lona Richey (b. Denton Co, Tx 1883, to Pickens District (near present day Duncan, Stephens Co., Ok, Chickasaw Nation, Indian Territory 1889, was in Tillman Co, Ok by statehood (1907), where she lived the remainder of her life except for a stint in Kiowa Co (Snyder) in the 1940s, - d. 1963 Tillman Co., Ok). Loney's mother was Josephine Brown, b. Lawrence Co, Arkansas 1854. Married 1872 at which time they moved to the Ok/Ar border near Fort Smith, Ar in either Cherokee or Choctaw Nation (my ancestor said he didn't know which side of the rivewr they lived on), to Denton Co., Tx by 1880, to Chickasaw Nation 1889, IT/Ok d. 1932 Tillman Co, Ok. Her parents were David Brown ( b. Lawrence Co, Al, abt 1822, m. Shelby Co., Tn 1841, back to Lawrence Co, Al, to Lawrence Co, Ark 1848 per tax records; d. 1 May 1865, possibly in Lawrence Co., Ark -- he seems to have just disapeared from history. Last foound in any records as being parolled from POW camp after the battle of Corinth, Ms. Was in "Black River Rifles", Arkansas 8th Conf. His estate was probated and it said he died 1 May 1865) and Harriet Gist/Guess (b. E Tn. or N Al, posibly Lawrence Co, abt 1817 or 1818, to Shelby Co, Tn after 1830 before 1840, m. 1841, unk until 1848 when rtey appear in Lawrence County, Arkansas. She moved to Choctaw/Cherokee Nation abt 1872, d. Denton Co., Tx 1886.). There are TWO (that we have found so far) records that mentions her family as descending from an unknown brother of Sequoyah. Neither record is definitive proof going back to a primary source, but both are independent of each other. It is through David Brown that we have an interest in the Reservation Rolls. The following Brown's are listed as applying for land per the Reservation Rolls: Alexander, James, John, John Sr., John Jr., Polly, and William. John was said to have been 1/8th Cherokee and the other two were said to be father and son, but perhaps they just had the same name and one was substantially older than the other. The same website where these names are found sasys -- This is only an index of applicants, the people listed here did not in most instances receive the reservation they requested David's parents were John Brown and Mary Black (m. 1820 Lawrence Co, Al). John was b. location unknown btw 1780-1790 per 1840 census. Per 1830 census there was a John Brown b. btw 1760-1770. In both cases, there is a neighbor 2 doors down with identical stories. That is, there is a William Brown in 1840 census b. btw 1780-1790, with the 1830 census saying here was an older William Brown b. btw 1760-1770. Mary was b. abt 1801 in North Carolina per 1850-1860 census records in Lawrence County, Arkansas. She and the family moved to where David was sometme betwene 1850-1860 per census records. We have two other independent records of where our Gist ancestors knew people who knew John Brown of Brown's ferry near Chattanooga, Tn. Again, a distant connection but they are independent of each other. He is the John Brown said to have been 1/8th Cherokee. Northern Lawrence County, Ala borders the Tennessee River and there was also a Brown's Ferry located there on the Lawrence/Limestone County border. From "Doublehead, Last Chickamauga Cherokee Chief", also by Ricky Butch Walker, p 73, we have the following; Histotrical records indicate that Doublehead lived at his Chickamauga Indian town at Brown’s Ferry from the 1770s through December 1801. According to "History of Alabama by Albert James Picket (1851), "Dec. 1801: Emigrants flocked to the Mississippi Territory . . . constructing flat boats at Knoxville, they floated down the river to the head of the Muscle Shoals, where they disembarked at the house of Double-Head, a (p 74) Cherokee Chief." . . .From Doublehead’s town, the Emigrants followed the Brown’s Ferry Road to Gourd’s Settlement (Courtland, Alabama) where it intersected with Gaine’s Trace. From "Land of the Lake, History of Campbell Co, Tn" by Ridenohour we have p. 34 -- Captain Cloud was active in the flatboat trade down the [Tennessee] river and was associated with the small group of men who played an important part in the settlement of the Mississippi River Valley. p 97 -- [speaking of the war of 1812] -- several Campbell County men under the direction of Captain Jason Cloud and the Haley’s built the retaining wall at Suck Creek on the Tennessee River to enable the flatboats to transport provisions to General Andrew Jackson's Army. The following excerpts are from "Footsteps of the Cherokee: A Guide to the Eastern Homelands of the Cherokee Nation", by Vicki Rozema, John F. Blair Publisher, Winston-Salem, North Carolina, 2nd edition, © copyright 2007 by Vicki Rozema. On page 66 is the following: Around 1800, John Brown, a mixed-blood Cherokee who became prominent in the area, ran a ferry across the Tennessee River at Williams Island. He was known as the best guide for navigating the treacherous waters at The Narrows and the Suck along the Tennessee River. This is important because earlier in the book, Ridenhour ALSO says (p 7-8 and is referring to the timeframe abt 1785)One 340 acre tract of land calls for a location on both sides Beaver dam Creek "including William Sharp’s improvement at Reed’s corner along a conditional line between William Sharp and John Brady on a cross fence down a small branch, thence along the fence twenty-nine poles striking the creek at a bent so up said creek to Miller’s line where John Guest (Gist) now lives." This John Gist was the son of an Indian trader and a Cherokee woman. He was kinsman of Sikwayi, or Sequoya, whose English name was George Gist, the inventor of the Cherokee alphabet of syllables. Years later Aaron Guest of Kentucky acknowledge the receipt of his part of "the estate of my father Aaron Guest, Deceased, where Jason Cloud and John Guest (Gist) were executors." Notice the time frame above was about 1785 when the land was first being surveyed. Also per both DNA tests and genealogical records, these are MY Gist's! Aaron Gist died Oct. 1801. Jason Cloud knew MY Gist's, and acording to Rozema and Walker's writings, Jason Cloud would have known the Brown's of both of the Brown's Ferry's, as well. Doublehead was an uncle or great uncle of Sequoyah, by the way. I took an autosomal DNA test in 2005 and it came back mostly Caucasian, but we do have a little sub-Sahara African and a little American Indian DNA as well. I would like to know more about the three John Brown's as well as William. Also all the other Brown's. Are they related? Were they assigned reservations? I wrote NARA in Fort Worth, I called them on the phone, and they REFUSED to send me copies of their records! And they confirmed they had these records! I offered to pay them and they still refused! I am very frustrated. Thank you for your time. I have no idea if any other messages have been posted or not but I didn't find any. Best wishes Vance Hawkins

    01/25/2013 01:27:24