Christie, We know (??? rumor family says he had only 6 sisters , census proves this wrong) he had two older brothers and several younger and older sisters. YES JOHN was born near the Cumberland Dauphin line. I am not sure where says near Harrisburg in bible. But JOHN with his mill in Rye Township Fishing Creek Valley as an adult is also near Harrisburg. :>) HIs father's estate Valentine MOYER m to CAtherine JONES also is a mess, they can't find the records of data, but did find the records saying there was records more on him. County lost?? who knows.?? We do know Catherine was given the other property to live and raise kids on. But where is property where is data only the tidbit from court papers that leaves us dangling. Valentine's Father mentions Valentine in some papers or we would not be able to connect the two together. Then Valentine SR mentions Philip in papers also. Little links here and there. I hope before I leave again next week to get more data out to you all. Some of what is written in FRETZ papers does apply to my MOYERS directly. Don MOyers book also has a tidbit but the confusion on death and birth still applies in his records, as well. We have JOHN born 1809 from bible and tombstone seems Fretz has him born earlier. We do know bible is wrong on some data. NOW family is thinking the kids ggrands in 1870's wrote the data down as they remembered not as fact. IF I could find JOHN's sister who lived near him in ILLinios it might help they maybe had more accurate data. Enough tonite more tomorrow I hope. Susi