Hi Howard, Thanks for your message - I was beginning to think no-one cared any more about those early times of interest to us. To be clear, I meant the Roses of MORAY vis-a-vis the Kilravocks' of NAIRN about which so much has been recorded. [I am tracking a Rose male ancestor in and around Urquahart, Morayshire at present and am experiencing difficulty locating any Rose families in that area. If the line holds true, then the Moray Rose family I have linked back to through English census records seem most likely to be one 'of Kilravock'] You are correct in your description of Geddes as a location. In so far as its connection to the Kilravocks I will send you an attachment separately of my notes to date (with sources). They aren't secret and you may find them of interest. Also, there is the following: .......The family of de Ros, or Rose, is of Norman origin, and was settled in Nairnshire, and held lands in Geddes in A.D. 1180. (1) Hugo de Rose, of Geddes, is one of the witnesses to the foundation Charter of Beauly Priory, Inverness-shire, which was founded by Sir John Bisset, of Lovat, in A.D. 1220. The son of this Baron..Hugo de Ros, of Geddes, living in 1280.... Source: Genealogy of the Family of Rose of Holme Rose. (2) ...the Roses were in this area, being one of the original clans. In 1219, during the reign of Alexander II, Hugh Rose of Geddes signed his name as witness to the foundation charter of the Priory of Beauly. It was a son of this Hugh, bearing the same name, who acquired Kilravock by way of marriage with the granddaughter of Sir John Bisset. Source: Highland Heritage by Grace Campbell. Chapter II. (3) Hugh Rose of Geddes. To give ane accompt of the particualr tyme when the first person of the familie settled here is uncertaine, for that reason we have given once or twice; soe that I need not repeat it. I have heard it reported of the Right Honorable Sir George Mackenzie of Tarbat, now Lord-Register, that in the foundation of the priorie of Bewlie, there is insert as witnesses, Urquhart of Cromartie, and Hugh Rose of Geddes; which, if so, Kilravocks predecessors have been near a whole centurie of years in this countrie before their getting of Kilravock; for by search of historie and records, I conceave that priorie was built by Bisset of Lovet, either in the latter end of the reigne of King William, or the beginning of Alexander secund, betwixt the years 1200 and 1220. And if he were witnes under that title and designation at that tyme, (tho it be more than ordinarie antiquitie) yet he might have so much older standing in the countrie. pp.26-27 Source: A Genealogical Deductions of the Family of Rose of Kilravock. (4) It is recorded that in 1219, Hugh Rose of Geddes was witness to the foundation charter of Beauly Priory and this proves that the clan had settled in the area of Nairn in the 12th century. Hugh's son acquired the lands of Kilravock on the Moray Firth through marriage, and this remains in the Rose family to this very day. I'm sure the truth of the matter is set out somewhere above Howard but it seems likely now that we shall not discover more. Best regards George ----- Original Message ----- From: <moray-request@rootsweb.com> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:00 AM Subject: MORAY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 168 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: ROSE (Howard Geddes) > 2. ROSE (Sue White) > 3. Re: [MORAY ] ROSE (brian.reavy@tesco.net) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:35:53 +0100 > From: "Howard Geddes" <hw_02-lst-mor@hwg59lists.waitrose.com> > Subject: Re: [MORAY] ROSE > To: <moray@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <6A13C58F7ACB408890DFB721A2AE6BE0@howard> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi George, > I always keep an eye out for ROSE. But as far as I can tell the only > connection (albeit a significant connection) between the surnames ROSE and > GEDDES is that the DE ROS family settled the location called Geddes. > > William the Lion gave three of his chums from Northumbria lands along the > Moray firth in abt 1174. DE ROS was given the lands of Geddes > (Nairnshire), > DE BYSET was given Kilravock (next door); DE BOSCO got Redcastle (on the > Black Isle). > > Trying to sort the facts from the fiction hasn't been easy, but it seems > John BYSET moved to Redcastle; he founded Beauly Priory in 1231 and a > witness there was Hugh DE ROS of Geddes - the first actually-documented > occurence of my surname. > > Hugh DE ROS (I think grandson of the above) acquired Kilravock in 1290 > through marriage to Marie, d/o Elizabeth DE BISSET & Andrew DE BOSCO. > MACINTOSHs acquired Geddes around that time (some parts maybe as early as > 1240), and I am of the opinion that Geddes eventually became split into > three portions: Easter Geddes and Meikle Geddes which are still named thus > today; and Wester Geddes being the land upon which Cawdor Castle was built > later on. > > I don't suppose the local population got much say in any matters at the > time, and probably many left. I suspect that my surname is a geonym > identfying people that used to live there but didn't any more, whereas > yours > comes from the French Norman DE ROS. > > In this context, I'm not aware of any familial connection between ROSE and > GEDDES. > > It was the above John BYSET (or his son) who founded the church at > Rathven, > Banffshire in abt 1224, so there's quite a neat connection between these > lands of Geddes in Nairnshire and my family who centuries later were and > are > in Rathven, Deskford and Fordyce. > > I'm a bit surprised that you say that there's little known about the > ROSEs - > I had understood that the ROSEs of Kilravock had the longest known > confirmed > genealogy of all Scotland! > > Howard Geddes > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:20:59 +1300 > From: "Sue White" <famwhite@xtra.co.nz> > Subject: [MORAY] ROSE > To: <MORAY@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <B2948294F73945AC8D2FA21F0AB33FD3@home> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you both Howard and George. > > I have very little ROSE info so will need to do some work on the names you > both have given me to see if I can find where I fit in. > > Seems I have a lot of work ahead of me. > > Thanks again. > > Sue White > Auckland. NZ > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:04:23 +0100 > From: <brian.reavy@tesco.net> > Subject: Re: [MORAY] [MORAY ] ROSE > To: moray@rootsweb.com > Cc: George Rose <gfr@logic.bm> > Message-ID: > <20091013130423.7SEG6.495659.root@web10-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi George, > > I'm sorry to take the thread off on a bit of a tangent but the transcript > of the baptism of my ggggrandfather John Yule and his twin brother Lewis > mentions the Rose family and has intrigued me for quite some time. The > text of the baptism record is: > > ?Nairn August 29th 1769. James Yule in town and Anne Petrekin his wife > ?had twins baptized. The eldest named John. Witnessed John McIntosh > wheelerwright, John Rose wright, John Rhind wheelerwright, John Petrekin > in Moy, Anne McIntosh and Jane Shepherd (wife of Alexander Rose) all in > town. The youngest called Lewis after Lewis Rose of Culmeny and Lewis > Grant of Grange-green Esquires. Witnessed Elizabeth Petrekin in Culmeny > Elspet Rose in Nairn. The children were born the 27th." > > I would like to know why Lewis was named after Lewis Grant and Lewis Yule. > Is this just "cap-doffing" to the local gentry or does it imply some other > relationship? Also I assume Anne Petrekin, John petrekin in Moy and > Elizabeth Petrekin in Culmeny are all related; if so what was Elizabeth's > role in Culmeny? Finally might the Elspet Rose in Nairn be related to > Lewis Rose if she is the witness to the son named after him? > > Any light that can shed would be gratefully received. > > Brian > ---- George Rose <gfr@logic.bm> wrote: >> Hi Sue & Howard, >> I too have an ongoing interest in the Roses of Moray - not much seems to >> be known about them in general but I believe my lot to be a cadet line of >> the Kilravocks' (adjacent shire in Inverness) before they migrated into >> England in the 1840's. >> >> I am a private reseacher and DNA tested as a descendant of a Kilravock >> cadet line. >> I have a lot of general information and many cadet lineages from the >> Barons' - quite willing to share should you have a further interest. >> >> Sue, the Roses of Urquhart (otherwise recorded, we believe, in the 1861 >> English census as OUHORT) are of interest to me. If you have anything >> further on this/these Urquhart families I would appreciate learning of >> them. >> (I also believe there are a number of geographical references to >> different Urquharts' in more than one shire in Scotland). >> I have a pencilled note in my records of an Ann Rose as the child of >> Patrick Rose the son of >> (John Rose of Wester Alves & Lochiehills b. abt 1666 in Wester Alves d. >> 13.04.1724. + 03.03.1698 Margaret Grant, only dau. of Parrick Grant of >> Whytree and of the Ballindalloch family. This John Rose was the son of >> Patrick Rose of Logie ' of whom Rose of Lochiehills in descended' 'in >> Lochiehills' b.1633-34, d.31.03.1727 = (1650?) Margaret or Isabel Tulloch >> dau. of Robert Tuclloch of Bogtown.) >> There is more lineage leading back to Hugh Rose 8th of Kilravock. >> >> Another son of the above John Rose of Lochiehills was named John who >> married Anne Cumming dau. of William Cumming of Craigmill and he took >> part in the '45 rebellion and d. in Virginia, 1762. >> This John Rose had issue including the well know William Rose of Gask >> b.11.08.1740 = Mary "The Fair Rose of Montcoffer" Robinson. eldest dau. >> of William Robinson. They had much issue. William Rose of Cask, >> Aberdeenshire, d. 1807. >> >> Howard, with you being a Geddes you will already know of a likely strong >> connection with the Roses of Kilravock. If you think it worthwhile I'd >> be glad to correspond about the deep ancestry of this family and can be >> contacted at gfr@ibl.bm >> Regards >> George F. Rose >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the MORAY list administrator, send an email to > MORAY-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the MORAY mailing list, send an email to > MORAY@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of MORAY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 168 > ************************************* >