I've looked up my history of Scotland. It would appear that Banff stood between the earldoms of Moray and Buchan, and probably for some centuries, at least during the time of Macbeth, Banff was under the Moray jurisdiction until it emerged later as a burgh more or less in its own right with its own -shire appellation. Of course, if the information sought were compiled in Kent it would be easy not to know of a Banffshire and to assume it came under the older Morayshire. However, others might have a more accurate explanation but this is the best I can muster at the moment. Shalom Chris -----Original Message----- From: Anne Burgess [mailto:anne.burgess@btinternet.com] Sent: Sunday, 3 April 2005 7:13 To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MORAY] Banff > From what I know now, the town of Banff, Banffshire > was his birthplace, and I can only assume at this > point, that Morayshire 'may' have been where he lived > afterwards. I think that has to be the likeliest explanation. Do you know the names of his parents? I note that his baptism is not in the IGI, so I was unable to check for siblings born elsewhere. Anne ______________________________

> I've looked up my history of Scotland. > > It would appear that Banff stood between the earldoms of Moray and Buchan, > and probably for some centuries, at least during the time of Macbeth, > Banff > was under the Moray jurisdiction until it emerged later as a burgh more or > less in its own right with its own -shire appellation. > > Of course, if the information sought were compiled in Kent it would be > easy > not to know of a Banffshire and to assume it came under the older > Morayshire. > That's right, Chris, but you are talking about the 11th century and Sharon's Charles Middleton was born in the late 18th century. I doubt if anyone in Kent in the mid-19th century would have had any notion of the geographical divisions of Scotland 800 years previously. (After a 25-year career in the tourist industry in Scotland I'd actually be surprised if more than a tiny proportion of the present-day population of Kent has any clear idea of the present-day geographical divisions of Scotland.) The Province of Moray (Moravia) is certainly older than either the county of Banff or the County of Moray, but the emergence of the two latter was probably roughly contemporaneous, and in any case a long time before Charles Middleton. Lachlan Shaw writes in his 'History of the Province of Moray' (1775), "The Author of this undertaking .... perused descriptions of several Counties, but had not the good fortune to meet with any tolerable acount of the Province of Moray" ... "The plain country by the sea side, from Spey to Ness, is always called Moray, **and I see no reason for extending it eastward beyond the mouth of the Spey**." [My asterisks]. He goes on to describe the extent of Moravia well to the west of the boundaries of the present Moray, or of the historical county of Moray. Thus an eminent local historian, writing 14 years before the birth of Charles Middleton, is quite clear that ther is no justification for including Banff in the Province of Moray. He then goes on to say that although Sheriffs existed in the reign of David I (12th century), "We cannot infer ... that the counties were erected at that time as they now are." ... "I find not, at what time this county was erected, or how early it had Counts and Sheriffs." and cites a charter of 1263 as evidence that there was such an entity then. "Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, was hereditary sheriff of this county." Thomas Randolph was the nephew of Robert the Bruce, and helped his uncle regain control of Scotland in the early 14th century. The clear implication of all this is (a) that Shaw does not consider that Banff was ever within the Province of Moray and (b) that even if it was, the county system had replaced the concept of the Province long before the time of Charles Middleton. I also consulted William Watt's "Aberdeen and Banff" (1900). He says of the counties of Aberdeen and Banff together, "Unconquered ... by the Romans, it formed after their departure one of the seven provinces into which Pictland or Albion of the early middle ages was divided." In other words, he too does not see Banff as part of the Province of Moray. HTH Anne