Christopher Ridings wrote: >Hi Carol, Anne. > >My children have through their mother an ancestral Margaret RIACH, b 7 >May 1727, Botrephiric, Banffshire. > > I think that is almost certainly a misreading for the parish whose name is generally rendered as "Botriphnie". Gavin Bell

Hi Carol, Anne. My children have through their mother an ancestral Margaret RIACH, b 7 May 1727, Botrephiric, Banffshire. Margaret married Patrick TAYLOR of Rathven, Keith. She was the daughter of Janet (n BREMNER) & William RIACH. Would this part of the same line? I have found a number from Banffshire migrating south after 1746 and during the Industrial Revolution. shalom Chris Christopher Ridings > Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:45:11 +0100 > From: Carol Sklinar <carol@wakefieldfhs.org.uk> > Subject: Re: [MORAY] Riach, Rubber and Cotton Planter > To: Anne Burgess <anne.burgess@btinternet.com>, moray@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4ADAE3A7.1020607@wakefieldfhs.org.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Thanks Anne, > > found him with a marriage to Isobel but also found a marriage of a > Robert Somerville R to one of 2 ladies in Sept of 1891 so can't pick > them up in the census - the age difference of Rbt S and Isabel leads > me > to believe Isobel the 2nd spouse. > > As you say a cert is the only way but as he has yet unknown > parentage I > think that will wait a little while. I've also looked on the > passenger > lists for him coming from West Africa as him work states Rubber and > Cotton planter representative, West Africa and no go there. > > I found him by chance while looking for Alexander Riach killed in > Kew - > there a a few Riach people in London in the 1911 but sadly does not > immediately tell a place of birth just a place of abode. Thankfully I > am not getting the info by pay per view which would cost a fortune > trying to find the right one - you know where they are born but 20 > or 30 > years later they could be living anywhere. > > Anyway, thanks Anne, will do a little more digging and let you know > what > I find. > > I am going to London in a few weeks to see my daughter - Christmas > shopping so may pop in on 30 Delancy Street, Campden to see what his > house was like............pity he won't be in to invite me in for a > cup > of tea !!!! > > Thanks again Anne > > Carol > > Anne Burgess wrote: >>> Does anyone know of one Summerville Riach born in 1870 and >>> born in Elgin. >>> The 1911 has him with his wife of 7 years, Lilian of Purston, >>> Yorkshire >>> and 2 boys both born in London and the eldes being home for >>> the school >>> holidays. >>> >> >> No sign of him in the IGI or in the 1881 census in northern >> Scotland. >> >> There is a marriage of a Robert Riach to Lilian Isobel A Parker >> in Brentford in the 3rd quarter of 1903. (GRO reference >> Brentford Sep 1903 Vol 3a Page 123), and a Lilian Isabel A >> Parker was born in Pontefract district, which includes Purston >> Jaglin, in the first quarter of 1884. (GRO reference Pontefract >> Mar 1884 Vol 9c Page 122) >> >> If you are really keen to know, you could get this marriage >> certificate and the birth certificate of one of the boys to >> confirm whether or not this is the same person. You would then >> know the name and occupation of Summerville's father, which >> might be helpful. >> >> HTH >> >> Anne > *************************************

Hi Chris, I have the family of William and Janet (Bremner) in my tree - but as yet don't know where or if there is a link to Robert Somerville Riach - I think there will be somewhere down the line but at the moment that is eluding me. So I have designated him a place in my to do file for when I sort out enough to buy pay per view from Scotlands People. I just by chance found him in the 1911 when looking for another Riach in London But in answer to your question the William, Janet and Margaret are mine Carol Christopher Ridings wrote: > Hi Carol, Anne. > > My children have through their mother an ancestral Margaret RIACH, b 7 > May 1727, Botrephiric, Banffshire. > Margaret married Patrick TAYLOR of Rathven, Keith. > She was the daughter of Janet (n BREMNER) & William RIACH. > Would this part of the same line? > I have found a number from Banffshire migrating south after 1746 and > during the Industrial Revolution. > > shalom > Chris > > Christopher Ridings > > >> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:45:11 +0100 >> From: Carol Sklinar <carol@wakefieldfhs.org.uk> >> Subject: Re: [MORAY] Riach, Rubber and Cotton Planter >> To: Anne Burgess <anne.burgess@btinternet.com>, moray@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <4ADAE3A7.1020607@wakefieldfhs.org.uk> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Thanks Anne, >> >> found him with a marriage to Isobel but also found a marriage of a >> Robert Somerville R to one of 2 ladies in Sept of 1891 so can't pick >> them up in the census - the age difference of Rbt S and Isabel leads >> me >> to believe Isobel the 2nd spouse. >> >> As you say a cert is the only way but as he has yet unknown >> parentage I >> think that will wait a little while. I've also looked on the >> passenger >> lists for him coming from West Africa as him work states Rubber and >> Cotton planter representative, West Africa and no go there. >> >> I found him by chance while looking for Alexander Riach killed in >> Kew - >> there a a few Riach people in London in the 1911 but sadly does not >> immediately tell a place of birth just a place of abode. Thankfully I >> am not getting the info by pay per view which would cost a fortune >> trying to find the right one - you know where they are born but 20 >> or 30 >> years later they could be living anywhere. >> >> Anyway, thanks Anne, will do a little more digging and let you know >> what >> I find. >> >> I am going to London in a few weeks to see my daughter - Christmas >> shopping so may pop in on 30 Delancy Street, Campden to see what his >> house was like............pity he won't be in to invite me in for a >> cup >> of tea !!!! >> >> Thanks again Anne >> >> Carol >> >> Anne Burgess wrote: >> >>>> Does anyone know of one Summerville Riach born in 1870 and >>>> born in Elgin. >>>> The 1911 has him with his wife of 7 years, Lilian of Purston, >>>> Yorkshire >>>> and 2 boys both born in London and the eldes being home for >>>> the school >>>> holidays. >>>> >>>> >>> No sign of him in the IGI or in the 1881 census in northern >>> Scotland. >>> >>> There is a marriage of a Robert Riach to Lilian Isobel A Parker >>> in Brentford in the 3rd quarter of 1903. (GRO reference >>> Brentford Sep 1903 Vol 3a Page 123), and a Lilian Isabel A >>> Parker was born in Pontefract district, which includes Purston >>> Jaglin, in the first quarter of 1884. (GRO reference Pontefract >>> Mar 1884 Vol 9c Page 122) >>> >>> If you are really keen to know, you could get this marriage >>> certificate and the birth certificate of one of the boys to >>> confirm whether or not this is the same person. You would then >>> know the name and occupation of Summerville's father, which >>> might be helpful. >>> >>> HTH >>> >>> Anne >>> >

Thanks Anne, found him with a marriage to Isobel but also found a marriage of a Robert Somerville R to one of 2 ladies in Sept of 1891 so can't pick them up in the census - the age difference of Rbt S and Isabel leads me to believe Isobel the 2nd spouse. As you say a cert is the only way but as he has yet unknown parentage I think that will wait a little while. I've also looked on the passenger lists for him coming from West Africa as him work states Rubber and Cotton planter representative, West Africa and no go there. I found him by chance while looking for Alexander Riach killed in Kew - there a a few Riach people in London in the 1911 but sadly does not immediately tell a place of birth just a place of abode. Thankfully I am not getting the info by pay per view which would cost a fortune trying to find the right one - you know where they are born but 20 or 30 years later they could be living anywhere. Anyway, thanks Anne, will do a little more digging and let you know what I find. I am going to London in a few weeks to see my daughter - Christmas shopping so may pop in on 30 Delancy Street, Campden to see what his house was like............pity he won't be in to invite me in for a cup of tea !!!! Thanks again Anne Carol Anne Burgess wrote: >> Does anyone know of one Summerville Riach born in 1870 and >> born in Elgin. >> The 1911 has him with his wife of 7 years, Lilian of Purston, >> Yorkshire >> and 2 boys both born in London and the eldes being home for >> the school >> holidays. >> > > No sign of him in the IGI or in the 1881 census in northern > Scotland. > > There is a marriage of a Robert Riach to Lilian Isobel A Parker > in Brentford in the 3rd quarter of 1903. (GRO reference > Brentford Sep 1903 Vol 3a Page 123), and a Lilian Isabel A > Parker was born in Pontefract district, which includes Purston > Jaglin, in the first quarter of 1884. (GRO reference Pontefract > Mar 1884 Vol 9c Page 122) > > If you are really keen to know, you could get this marriage > certificate and the birth certificate of one of the boys to > confirm whether or not this is the same person. You would then > know the name and occupation of Summerville's father, which > might be helpful. > > HTH > > Anne > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.20/2443 - Release Date: 10/17/09 13:08:00 > >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: mcoe137 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/131.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I believe that was my father. His name was Murdoch Coe and his mother was Blanche Murdoch. Murdoch was born in 1914 in Chicago, Illinois which is where Thomas and John settled. Thomas went on to create Reid and Murdoch, a mercantile firm, which later became Consolidated Foods and now, Monarch Foods. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

> Does anyone know of one Summerville Riach born in 1870 and > born in Elgin. > The 1911 has him with his wife of 7 years, Lilian of Purston, > Yorkshire > and 2 boys both born in London and the eldes being home for > the school > holidays. No sign of him in the IGI or in the 1881 census in northern Scotland. There is a marriage of a Robert Riach to Lilian Isobel A Parker in Brentford in the 3rd quarter of 1903. (GRO reference Brentford Sep 1903 Vol 3a Page 123), and a Lilian Isabel A Parker was born in Pontefract district, which includes Purston Jaglin, in the first quarter of 1884. (GRO reference Pontefract Mar 1884 Vol 9c Page 122) If you are really keen to know, you could get this marriage certificate and the birth certificate of one of the boys to confirm whether or not this is the same person. You would then know the name and occupation of Summerville's father, which might be helpful. HTH Anne

Does anyone know of one Summerville Riach born in 1870 and born in Elgin. The 1911 has him with his wife of 7 years, Lilian of Purston, Yorkshire and 2 boys both born in London and the eldes being home for the school holidays. Any help appreciated Carol

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: RuthMcIntosh49 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2377.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: If you go on to the Moray Burial Ground Research Group site at mbgrg.org and type in MACADAM A Margaret MacAdam ( Cook) is buried in Elgin Cathedral Hope this helps Ruth Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Hi All, Thought you might have an interest in the following information as it pertains to ancient Morayshire and some with names of Calder and Rose in those far off times: The following summarized article was compiled by Bill Caddell – bcadell@charter.net from many sources which are acknowledged in the full article which may be found at http://www.scotland-inverness.co.uk At the dawning of civilization in the country of Scotland…………..and during the 11th and 12th centuries, Morayshire included Nairnshire and covered an area extending around the Moray Firth from Ross to Buchan and southwest to Atholl and Lochaber. Moray was a very ancient Pictish Kingdom, one of the seven Celtic earldoms, which was originally separated from the Kingdom of Scotland. Moray was ruled by its own line of Celtic Earls. In 1130, according to the Gaelic Chronicles, “a battle was fought between the men of Scotland and the men of Moray; and in it four thousand men of Moray fell, including their King Angus (Earl of Moray), the great grandson of King Macbeth by Lulach’s daughter.” Their lands were thus forfeited to the Crown. The current Nairnshire and Morayshire are situated just east of Inverness in the Highlands of Scotland. The Moray men lived under direct rule of the King. They held land on condition of giving the King military aid when needed. They were, in fact, a company of the King’s men who owed no loyalty to a feudal superior. They were responsible for garrisoning the Royal castles. Their lands were called “Castle lands.” At the time, the Kingdom of Scotland was ruled by:— King Duncan (1033 – 1039) King Macbeth (1039 – 1057) King Malcolm III (1057 – 1093) King Donald Ban (1093 – 1098) King Edgar (1098 – 1107) King Alexander (1107 - 1124) King David (1124 – 1153) who created Angus’ younger brother as the Earl of Ross. To possibly eliminate further trouble, many of the prominent leaders of Morayshire were” transplanted’ being replaced by loyal Anglo-Normans. In 1153 AD the Celts of Moray again rose up against the Scottish Crown. By 1156 their uprising was quelled and further dependable newcomers settled in Moray. In 1163 King Malcolm IV defeated the men of Moray and Moray was soon absorbed by the kingdom of Scotland. Malcolm drove out the troublemakers (of the men of Moray). Many of those driven out took refuge in the south and west, while others moved northwards into what is now Caithness and Sutherland, still then under Norse rule. The last of the Celtic kings of Scotland was Alexander III (r. 1249 – 1285). Scotland, between 1236 and 1310, was in a state of turmoil and in constant warring with England. The Normans were already part Celtic and readily fitted in with the Scottish Celts. The use of surnames or descriptive names appears to have commenced in France about the year 1000. Such names were introduced into Scotland through the Normans during the next 50 years, and then only occasionally used until they became commonly used in the mid-twelfth century. According to William Stewart in a general council Forfar, Scotland in 1061 AD during the reign of King Malcolm Ceannmor (Canmore), he directed his chief subjects to adopt the use of surnames from their territorial possession after the custom of other nations. It is also known that during the early period after 1066, many Norman Knights acquired vast estates in Scotland through intermarriage with Celtic heiresses. The population of Scotland was very sparse. The majority were Celts, mainly north of the Forth and Clyde and in the southwest. There were Norsemen (Vikings) in Caithness, Sutherland and the Western Isles, Anglo-Saxons in Lothian; and along the east coast in the port cities (actually colonies of foreign merchants) of Inverness, Elgin, Aberdeen, Perth, Montrose, Dundee, Edinburgh and Berwick. The country was wilder, having vast forests of the native Scottish pine in abundance which were dark and impenetrable, where wolves and wild boars roamed and wide wastes of moor and bog, mountain and water covered much of the land. Transport was mostly by pack horse along tracks which were sometimes impassable in winter. The Feudal system was introduced into the Celtic kingdom of Scotland by David I on assuming his throne in 1124. Foe the next 600 years, the Feudal system was in constant conflict with the Clan system that had been developing in the Highlands. Under the Feudal system all land belonged to the King. He governed by leasing large provinces to his leading noblemen in return for their loyalty and, in time of war, armed knights to defend the Crown. These lands were further subdivided to smaller estates leased to knights and gentlemen for the same security and loyalty. These estates were further leased to others with husbandmen and serfs to tend the land and serve their masters and in times of war with shield and spear. The great Celtic landowners, who had previously held their land by tribal custom, had their possessions and privileges confirmed by charters from the Crown. There was orderly transitions – no landlords were deposed and land grants were from estates where native families had died out as well as other estates confiscated by the Crown. The central government was provided through agents of the King – chamberlain, justiciar, and sheriffs. The sheriffs, some 30 in number, were the Kings Royal agents in the local districts into which the kingdom was divided. They were the sinews of the administration, presiding over courts for free men to use, collecting and accounting for royal revenues, and supervising the Royal castles in their sheriffdoms. They were appointed by the King and usually were earls and barons who were already prominent landowners in their areas. In 1295, Donald Calder – 1st recorded Thane of Cawdor, was one at the inquest on the extent for valuation of Lands of Kilravock and Easter Geddes, in the parish of Nairn, the property of his neighbour, Hugh Rose of Kilravock, on the feast of Saint Lawrence. During the late 15th century the family estate (of Calder) was one of the most valuable and extensive in the north of Scotland. In about 1437 under the rule of King James II, the younger male family members (of Calder ) appear to have sought public service in the south of Scotland. Thane William Calder – 7th Thane of Cawdor,… who died in 1503, ….had frequent strife with his neighbour, the Baron of Kilravock, aften at deadly feud. A crisis arose when Thane William seized Kilravock’s eldest son, putting him ward in the Cawdor castle dungeon. Kilravock appealed to the Earl of Huntly, the King’s Lieutenant. A Royal warrant was issued to command Thane William to set young Kilravock at liberty. During the 1490’s, Thane William had several other ‘close scrapes’ with the law. ……….However, the most critical occurred on 26th April 1494, when he …..and others……..were tried and found guilty in the circuit court at Aberdeen for certain acts of alleged criminal actions. They were sentenced to be beheaded. However, on 25 October 1494, King James IV again pardoned him……….. A son of Thane William Calder – 7th of Cawdor was Alexander of Clunas, youngest, who m. Elizabeth Rose on 6 May 1515 at Auldearn. His descendants became tenants of the Hilltown of Raite. John Calder – 8th Thane of Cawdor m. Isabella Rose, daughter of Baron Hugh Rose Jr. of Kilravock by an indenture made on 10 May 1494. John obtained a charter on 2 Nov 1494 for the Cawdor Thanedom. According to Kilravock Castle records, John Calder died in December 1494. a.. A daughter, Jonet was born and soon died. b.. Several months after Thane John’s death, Muriel was born and become sole heir to the Calder estate. Muriel Calder – 9th Thane (Thaness) of Cawdor: According to a Charter in 1573, Muriel, then 79 years old, was born in 1494. When her father John Calder (last of the Calder Thanes) died, the thanedom passed to his infant, Muriel. According to Lord Cawdor (1993), Muriel, the daughter of John and Isobel Rose (of Kilravock Castle) Cadler, inherited the estate and an opulent fortune. Kilravock projected to marry her to his grandson and took her mother and her into his family. Archibald Campbell, 2nd earl of Argyll heard of Kilravock’s plan and contrived to bring her into the family of Argyll. He soon found an opportunity of effecting the union. The younger Kilravock in 1492 joined Duncan, Laird MacIntosh in spoiling the lands of Alexander Urquhart of Cromarty and was criminally prosecuted by Cromarty. Argyll who was Justice General in Scotland got Kilravock assoilzied and discharged with a fine of 800 merks. To obtain this favor Kilravock agreed to deliver Muriel to Argyll. Argyll and Hugh Rose of Kilravock, Muriel’s uncle, were appointed tutors dative and ward of her marriage by King James IV by Royal grant on 16 January 1495. Muriel was kept in the House of Kilravock, and Argyll gave a bond of maintenance and friendship to Kilravock on 1 February 1499. Best regards George F. Rose

Hi Howard, Thanks for your message - I was beginning to think no-one cared any more about those early times of interest to us. To be clear, I meant the Roses of MORAY vis-a-vis the Kilravocks' of NAIRN about which so much has been recorded. [I am tracking a Rose male ancestor in and around Urquahart, Morayshire at present and am experiencing difficulty locating any Rose families in that area. If the line holds true, then the Moray Rose family I have linked back to through English census records seem most likely to be one 'of Kilravock'] You are correct in your description of Geddes as a location. In so far as its connection to the Kilravocks I will send you an attachment separately of my notes to date (with sources). They aren't secret and you may find them of interest. Also, there is the following: .......The family of de Ros, or Rose, is of Norman origin, and was settled in Nairnshire, and held lands in Geddes in A.D. 1180. (1) Hugo de Rose, of Geddes, is one of the witnesses to the foundation Charter of Beauly Priory, Inverness-shire, which was founded by Sir John Bisset, of Lovat, in A.D. 1220. The son of this Baron..Hugo de Ros, of Geddes, living in 1280.... Source: Genealogy of the Family of Rose of Holme Rose. (2) ...the Roses were in this area, being one of the original clans. In 1219, during the reign of Alexander II, Hugh Rose of Geddes signed his name as witness to the foundation charter of the Priory of Beauly. It was a son of this Hugh, bearing the same name, who acquired Kilravock by way of marriage with the granddaughter of Sir John Bisset. Source: Highland Heritage by Grace Campbell. Chapter II. (3) Hugh Rose of Geddes. To give ane accompt of the particualr tyme when the first person of the familie settled here is uncertaine, for that reason we have given once or twice; soe that I need not repeat it. I have heard it reported of the Right Honorable Sir George Mackenzie of Tarbat, now Lord-Register, that in the foundation of the priorie of Bewlie, there is insert as witnesses, Urquhart of Cromartie, and Hugh Rose of Geddes; which, if so, Kilravocks predecessors have been near a whole centurie of years in this countrie before their getting of Kilravock; for by search of historie and records, I conceave that priorie was built by Bisset of Lovet, either in the latter end of the reigne of King William, or the beginning of Alexander secund, betwixt the years 1200 and 1220. And if he were witnes under that title and designation at that tyme, (tho it be more than ordinarie antiquitie) yet he might have so much older standing in the countrie. pp.26-27 Source: A Genealogical Deductions of the Family of Rose of Kilravock. (4) It is recorded that in 1219, Hugh Rose of Geddes was witness to the foundation charter of Beauly Priory and this proves that the clan had settled in the area of Nairn in the 12th century. Hugh's son acquired the lands of Kilravock on the Moray Firth through marriage, and this remains in the Rose family to this very day. I'm sure the truth of the matter is set out somewhere above Howard but it seems likely now that we shall not discover more. Best regards George ----- Original Message ----- From: <moray-request@rootsweb.com> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:00 AM Subject: MORAY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 168 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: ROSE (Howard Geddes) > 2. ROSE (Sue White) > 3. Re: [MORAY ] ROSE (brian.reavy@tesco.net) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:35:53 +0100 > From: "Howard Geddes" <hw_02-lst-mor@hwg59lists.waitrose.com> > Subject: Re: [MORAY] ROSE > To: <moray@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <6A13C58F7ACB408890DFB721A2AE6BE0@howard> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi George, > I always keep an eye out for ROSE. But as far as I can tell the only > connection (albeit a significant connection) between the surnames ROSE and > GEDDES is that the DE ROS family settled the location called Geddes. > > William the Lion gave three of his chums from Northumbria lands along the > Moray firth in abt 1174. DE ROS was given the lands of Geddes > (Nairnshire), > DE BYSET was given Kilravock (next door); DE BOSCO got Redcastle (on the > Black Isle). > > Trying to sort the facts from the fiction hasn't been easy, but it seems > John BYSET moved to Redcastle; he founded Beauly Priory in 1231 and a > witness there was Hugh DE ROS of Geddes - the first actually-documented > occurence of my surname. > > Hugh DE ROS (I think grandson of the above) acquired Kilravock in 1290 > through marriage to Marie, d/o Elizabeth DE BISSET & Andrew DE BOSCO. > MACINTOSHs acquired Geddes around that time (some parts maybe as early as > 1240), and I am of the opinion that Geddes eventually became split into > three portions: Easter Geddes and Meikle Geddes which are still named thus > today; and Wester Geddes being the land upon which Cawdor Castle was built > later on. > > I don't suppose the local population got much say in any matters at the > time, and probably many left. I suspect that my surname is a geonym > identfying people that used to live there but didn't any more, whereas > yours > comes from the French Norman DE ROS. > > In this context, I'm not aware of any familial connection between ROSE and > GEDDES. > > It was the above John BYSET (or his son) who founded the church at > Rathven, > Banffshire in abt 1224, so there's quite a neat connection between these > lands of Geddes in Nairnshire and my family who centuries later were and > are > in Rathven, Deskford and Fordyce. > > I'm a bit surprised that you say that there's little known about the > ROSEs - > I had understood that the ROSEs of Kilravock had the longest known > confirmed > genealogy of all Scotland! > > Howard Geddes > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:20:59 +1300 > From: "Sue White" <famwhite@xtra.co.nz> > Subject: [MORAY] ROSE > To: <MORAY@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <B2948294F73945AC8D2FA21F0AB33FD3@home> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you both Howard and George. > > I have very little ROSE info so will need to do some work on the names you > both have given me to see if I can find where I fit in. > > Seems I have a lot of work ahead of me. > > Thanks again. > > Sue White > Auckland. NZ > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:04:23 +0100 > From: <brian.reavy@tesco.net> > Subject: Re: [MORAY] [MORAY ] ROSE > To: moray@rootsweb.com > Cc: George Rose <gfr@logic.bm> > Message-ID: > <20091013130423.7SEG6.495659.root@web10-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi George, > > I'm sorry to take the thread off on a bit of a tangent but the transcript > of the baptism of my ggggrandfather John Yule and his twin brother Lewis > mentions the Rose family and has intrigued me for quite some time. The > text of the baptism record is: > > ?Nairn August 29th 1769. James Yule in town and Anne Petrekin his wife > ?had twins baptized. The eldest named John. Witnessed John McIntosh > wheelerwright, John Rose wright, John Rhind wheelerwright, John Petrekin > in Moy, Anne McIntosh and Jane Shepherd (wife of Alexander Rose) all in > town. The youngest called Lewis after Lewis Rose of Culmeny and Lewis > Grant of Grange-green Esquires. Witnessed Elizabeth Petrekin in Culmeny > Elspet Rose in Nairn. The children were born the 27th." > > I would like to know why Lewis was named after Lewis Grant and Lewis Yule. > Is this just "cap-doffing" to the local gentry or does it imply some other > relationship? Also I assume Anne Petrekin, John petrekin in Moy and > Elizabeth Petrekin in Culmeny are all related; if so what was Elizabeth's > role in Culmeny? Finally might the Elspet Rose in Nairn be related to > Lewis Rose if she is the witness to the son named after him? > > Any light that can shed would be gratefully received. > > Brian > ---- George Rose <gfr@logic.bm> wrote: >> Hi Sue & Howard, >> I too have an ongoing interest in the Roses of Moray - not much seems to >> be known about them in general but I believe my lot to be a cadet line of >> the Kilravocks' (adjacent shire in Inverness) before they migrated into >> England in the 1840's. >> >> I am a private reseacher and DNA tested as a descendant of a Kilravock >> cadet line. >> I have a lot of general information and many cadet lineages from the >> Barons' - quite willing to share should you have a further interest. >> >> Sue, the Roses of Urquhart (otherwise recorded, we believe, in the 1861 >> English census as OUHORT) are of interest to me. If you have anything >> further on this/these Urquhart families I would appreciate learning of >> them. >> (I also believe there are a number of geographical references to >> different Urquharts' in more than one shire in Scotland). >> I have a pencilled note in my records of an Ann Rose as the child of >> Patrick Rose the son of >> (John Rose of Wester Alves & Lochiehills b. abt 1666 in Wester Alves d. >> 13.04.1724. + 03.03.1698 Margaret Grant, only dau. of Parrick Grant of >> Whytree and of the Ballindalloch family. This John Rose was the son of >> Patrick Rose of Logie ' of whom Rose of Lochiehills in descended' 'in >> Lochiehills' b.1633-34, d.31.03.1727 = (1650?) Margaret or Isabel Tulloch >> dau. of Robert Tuclloch of Bogtown.) >> There is more lineage leading back to Hugh Rose 8th of Kilravock. >> >> Another son of the above John Rose of Lochiehills was named John who >> married Anne Cumming dau. of William Cumming of Craigmill and he took >> part in the '45 rebellion and d. in Virginia, 1762. >> This John Rose had issue including the well know William Rose of Gask >> b.11.08.1740 = Mary "The Fair Rose of Montcoffer" Robinson. eldest dau. >> of William Robinson. They had much issue. William Rose of Cask, >> Aberdeenshire, d. 1807. >> >> Howard, with you being a Geddes you will already know of a likely strong >> connection with the Roses of Kilravock. If you think it worthwhile I'd >> be glad to correspond about the deep ancestry of this family and can be >> contacted at gfr@ibl.bm >> Regards >> George F. Rose >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the MORAY list administrator, send an email to > MORAY-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the MORAY mailing list, send an email to > MORAY@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of MORAY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 168 > ************************************* >

Thank you both Howard and George. I have very little ROSE info so will need to do some work on the names you both have given me to see if I can find where I fit in. Seems I have a lot of work ahead of me. Thanks again. Sue White Auckland. NZ

Hi George, I'm sorry to take the thread off on a bit of a tangent but the transcript of the baptism of my ggggrandfather John Yule and his twin brother Lewis mentions the Rose family and has intrigued me for quite some time. The text of the baptism record is: “Nairn August 29th 1769. James Yule in town and Anne Petrekin his wife ¬had twins baptized. The eldest named John. Witnessed John McIntosh wheelerwright, John Rose wright, John Rhind wheelerwright, John Petrekin in Moy, Anne McIntosh and Jane Shepherd (wife of Alexander Rose) all in town. The youngest called Lewis after Lewis Rose of Culmeny and Lewis Grant of Grange-green Esquires. Witnessed Elizabeth Petrekin in Culmeny Elspet Rose in Nairn. The children were born the 27th." I would like to know why Lewis was named after Lewis Grant and Lewis Yule. Is this just "cap-doffing" to the local gentry or does it imply some other relationship? Also I assume Anne Petrekin, John petrekin in Moy and Elizabeth Petrekin in Culmeny are all related; if so what was Elizabeth's role in Culmeny? Finally might the Elspet Rose in Nairn be related to Lewis Rose if she is the witness to the son named after him? Any light that can shed would be gratefully received. Brian ---- George Rose <gfr@logic.bm> wrote: > Hi Sue & Howard, > I too have an ongoing interest in the Roses of Moray - not much seems to be known about them in general but I believe my lot to be a cadet line of the Kilravocks' (adjacent shire in Inverness) before they migrated into England in the 1840's. > > I am a private reseacher and DNA tested as a descendant of a Kilravock cadet line. > I have a lot of general information and many cadet lineages from the Barons' - quite willing to share should you have a further interest. > > Sue, the Roses of Urquhart (otherwise recorded, we believe, in the 1861 English census as OUHORT) are of interest to me. If you have anything further on this/these Urquhart families I would appreciate learning of them. > (I also believe there are a number of geographical references to different Urquharts' in more than one shire in Scotland). > I have a pencilled note in my records of an Ann Rose as the child of Patrick Rose the son of > (John Rose of Wester Alves & Lochiehills b. abt 1666 in Wester Alves d. 13.04.1724. + 03.03.1698 Margaret Grant, only dau. of Parrick Grant of Whytree and of the Ballindalloch family. This John Rose was the son of > Patrick Rose of Logie ' of whom Rose of Lochiehills in descended' 'in Lochiehills' b.1633-34, d.31.03.1727 = (1650?) Margaret or Isabel Tulloch dau. of Robert Tuclloch of Bogtown.) > There is more lineage leading back to Hugh Rose 8th of Kilravock. > > Another son of the above John Rose of Lochiehills was named John who married Anne Cumming dau. of William Cumming of Craigmill and he took part in the '45 rebellion and d. in Virginia, 1762. > This John Rose had issue including the well know William Rose of Gask > b.11.08.1740 = Mary "The Fair Rose of Montcoffer" Robinson. eldest dau. of William Robinson. They had much issue. William Rose of Cask, Aberdeenshire, d. 1807. > > Howard, with you being a Geddes you will already know of a likely strong connection with the Roses of Kilravock. If you think it worthwhile I'd be glad to correspond about the deep ancestry of this family and can be contacted at gfr@ibl.bm > Regards > George F. Rose > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi George, I always keep an eye out for ROSE. But as far as I can tell the only connection (albeit a significant connection) between the surnames ROSE and GEDDES is that the DE ROS family settled the location called Geddes. William the Lion gave three of his chums from Northumbria lands along the Moray firth in abt 1174. DE ROS was given the lands of Geddes (Nairnshire), DE BYSET was given Kilravock (next door); DE BOSCO got Redcastle (on the Black Isle). Trying to sort the facts from the fiction hasn't been easy, but it seems John BYSET moved to Redcastle; he founded Beauly Priory in 1231 and a witness there was Hugh DE ROS of Geddes - the first actually-documented occurence of my surname. Hugh DE ROS (I think grandson of the above) acquired Kilravock in 1290 through marriage to Marie, d/o Elizabeth DE BISSET & Andrew DE BOSCO. MACINTOSHs acquired Geddes around that time (some parts maybe as early as 1240), and I am of the opinion that Geddes eventually became split into three portions: Easter Geddes and Meikle Geddes which are still named thus today; and Wester Geddes being the land upon which Cawdor Castle was built later on. I don't suppose the local population got much say in any matters at the time, and probably many left. I suspect that my surname is a geonym identfying people that used to live there but didn't any more, whereas yours comes from the French Norman DE ROS. In this context, I'm not aware of any familial connection between ROSE and GEDDES. It was the above John BYSET (or his son) who founded the church at Rathven, Banffshire in abt 1224, so there's quite a neat connection between these lands of Geddes in Nairnshire and my family who centuries later were and are in Rathven, Deskford and Fordyce. I'm a bit surprised that you say that there's little known about the ROSEs - I had understood that the ROSEs of Kilravock had the longest known confirmed genealogy of all Scotland! Howard Geddes

Hi Sue & Howard, I too have an ongoing interest in the Roses of Moray - not much seems to be known about them in general but I believe my lot to be a cadet line of the Kilravocks' (adjacent shire in Inverness) before they migrated into England in the 1840's. I am a private reseacher and DNA tested as a descendant of a Kilravock cadet line. I have a lot of general information and many cadet lineages from the Barons' - quite willing to share should you have a further interest. Sue, the Roses of Urquhart (otherwise recorded, we believe, in the 1861 English census as OUHORT) are of interest to me. If you have anything further on this/these Urquhart families I would appreciate learning of them. (I also believe there are a number of geographical references to different Urquharts' in more than one shire in Scotland). I have a pencilled note in my records of an Ann Rose as the child of Patrick Rose the son of (John Rose of Wester Alves & Lochiehills b. abt 1666 in Wester Alves d. 13.04.1724. + 03.03.1698 Margaret Grant, only dau. of Parrick Grant of Whytree and of the Ballindalloch family. This John Rose was the son of Patrick Rose of Logie ' of whom Rose of Lochiehills in descended' 'in Lochiehills' b.1633-34, d.31.03.1727 = (1650?) Margaret or Isabel Tulloch dau. of Robert Tuclloch of Bogtown.) There is more lineage leading back to Hugh Rose 8th of Kilravock. Another son of the above John Rose of Lochiehills was named John who married Anne Cumming dau. of William Cumming of Craigmill and he took part in the '45 rebellion and d. in Virginia, 1762. This John Rose had issue including the well know William Rose of Gask b.11.08.1740 = Mary "The Fair Rose of Montcoffer" Robinson. eldest dau. of William Robinson. They had much issue. William Rose of Cask, Aberdeenshire, d. 1807. Howard, with you being a Geddes you will already know of a likely strong connection with the Roses of Kilravock. If you think it worthwhile I'd be glad to correspond about the deep ancestry of this family and can be contacted at gfr@ibl.bm Regards George F. Rose

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GillNE46 Surnames: Cook, McAdam Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2377/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Interested in more information on George Ross Cook (died 1857 Lossiemouth) who may have been married a Margaret Macadam. I think he may be buried at Elgin Cathedral. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Sue, >From the OPR, Ann ROSE was born illegitmate and baptised 29 Mar 1814, with her mother's name being Margaret RHIND (rather than Margaret REID). The father looks to be Mr P ROSE (with an outside chance of being W. P. ROSE). I'm wondering if the father turned up in 1841 in Banff as Patrick ROSE Sheriff Clerk of County, age 60? This is him, from a list of Sheriff-Clerks in Cramond's Banff Churchyard MIs: "1801 William Rose of Ballivat and his fourth son Patrick. William Rose died c. 1807, and Patrick on 2nd July, 1844, and both were buried in Alvah Churchyard." This Patrick ROSE married Maria Theresa WEMYSS on 9 Dec 1815 in Banff. There will be plenty of information about this family I am sure, and the ROSEs in general have a genealogy going back centuries (and I should think this Patrick ROSE is one of them). As for Margaret RHIND, one of that name married James REID 31 Jan 1817 Fordyce and had family. Just a few thoughts, to either help or hinder. Howard Geddes

I also have a ROSE. My interest is in Ann Rose who married John Collie 28 October 1832 in Gamrie, Banffshire. Ann was born 1815 in Portsoy, Banffshire and her parents were P (possibly Peter or Patrick) and Margaret Reid.

hI GEORGE. I have a Rose family married into my WISEMAN family in the Lossiemouth area of Morayshire. However I won't be much help I don't think. My Alexander WISEMAN bn 1805 Drainie, s/o James Wiseman (1765/1852) and Jane Winchester (1765/1840) , Alexander married a Jane ROSE in 1840 . Jane Rose was the daughter of George ROSE and Elizabeth ANDERSON bn/bpt 11 Aug 1817 Urquhart, Jane and Alexander had 12 chn. Alexander was a Fish Curer and Merchant in Lossiemouth near the sea I suppose. Don't know anything about any of them moving out of that area. May be my generation of the ROSES was earlier than the ones you are seeking. Perhaps tracking them down through the census may help if you haven't already tried. Don't have anything else to offer I'm afraid. Good luck, Pearl Montrose.

There are only three Thomas Barron's in the OPR born between 1760 and 1795 in the whole of Morayshire and Nairnshire (The Altyre estate also included parts of Ardclach parish), and of these Goldie's suggestion of the Thomas Barron born 1786 is the only realistic one. Unfortunately though I can find no record on the OPR of him having a brother John. Perhaps Bill can give us more information about these Barrons to help our search. For instance, Bill, do you have the age at death of James Penrose in 1819, or any dates or ages for his nephews Thomas and John? Alastair MacDonald

The Moray Council records website at http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp has quite a few records for people who died in Lachute. Just do a People Search with only Lachute in Place of Death. The list includes William & Ann Barron from my previous posting and several of their children. Click on the magnifying glass for each name to see the details. You can obtain copies of the original records for a slight fee. Just click on the Advice/Help button for Contact information. -- Jo-Ann