In a letter to William Rose (of Montcoffer) dated April 20th 1790, Lord Fife refers to a meeting in London with "Capt. Hay's brother" who was seeking a vacancy.  The Capt. Hay in question was Andrew Hay of Montblairy/Mountblairy who was born in 1762 to George Hay of Montblairy and Peggy Sinclair, whose marriage was recorded in Banff on 5th August 1760.  Andrew's well-documented military career was cut short by his death at Bayonne in 1814. My interest lies in identifying Andrew's nameless brother, but baptism records for this area are incomplete (Banff/Alvah/Forglen 1760 - 1780).  I've also been unable to trace a will for George Hay who died in Edinburgh in 1771.  Have any other researchers come across children born to George Hay & Peggy Sinclair? Alison Smith

I am looking for a Peter Keel/Kiel b 05 Jul 1823 in Mortlach son of James Keel & Elspet Ross I found a Peter Keil aged 23 on the 1851 census at Kirkton St Mortlach with his wife and son , wife is Jana born Edinburgh aged 50 and son Peter aged 1. I can't find a marriage for Peter and Jana or a birth for the son and can't find them after the 1851 Census Any help much appreciated

Further to the apposite postings by Anne and Gavin about irregular marriages I myself doubt whether the incidence of such marriages was very high in the localities where I have done most of my research that is in the the northern parts of Aberdeenshire and in neighbouring Banffshire particularly where the parents offered their children up for baptism. In my opinion having looked at hundreds of OPRs mainly for Cairney, Glass, Huntly and neighbouring parishes I think that missing marriage records are more to do with records lost and records not being registered due to various circumstances such as not belonging to the established church or the established church being without a minister or session clerk owing to the church politics and doctrinal differences of the day. Or a Session Clerk who writes on tiny scraps of paper instead of in abook like the some of the 1750s entries for Cairney. How many were lost? >From the point of view of family history and church records it is worth noting that prior to the1834 Marriage (Scotland) Act ministers who were not part of the established Church of Scotland (that is dissenting or secessionist ministers) could *not* perform "regular marriages" . After 1834 they were allowed to perform marriages provided the banns had been read out in the established parish church. This changed in 1855. A rough definition of secessionists or seceders is those who broke away from the established church but are still presbyterian in how they organise the breakaway church and broadly "calvanistic" in doctrine. Dissenters on the other hand were in churches which were not presbyterian in church government and would cover Episcopalian, Baptists, Congregationalists and Methodists often referred to as Wesleyan. The Methodists did not make much headway in this part of Scotland because they were not Calvinistic in the doctrine of atonement but Arminian The history of the church in Scotland is a history of breakaways and schisms. In the 1730s the Seceesion Church was formed and then it split with the Anti-Burghers church as a break away. In the 1750s the Relief Church is formed ( it kept its own records). The first Secessionist congregation in our area was formed at Cabrach in 1761 with the church building being erected in 1772 This was followed by a church in Keith with George Cowie being ordained in 1771 as the minister of the combined secessionist congregations of Cabrach, Keith, Grange and Huntly.. During this period there also appeared small Congregationalist or Independent churches. All this has had an effect on the OPRs of this area and we have sometimes to look to Kirk Session records and other sources for information about our families here.The next busy period in Scottish church history is in the 1830s and the run up to the Disruption in 1843 when the Free Church was formed when a large part ( over 400 ministers) of the estabished church walked out. In 1847 the Seccesionist and Relief Churches came together in the United Presbyterian Church. In 1990 the United Presbyterian Church and The Free Church of Scotland came together as the United Free Church of Scotland. Of course at each union there were those who did not agree with the merger and saw themselves as the true remnant of the church. The last big union was in 1929 when the United Presbyterian Church came back into the fold of the Church of Scotland which by this time although deemed the "national" Church in Scotland was no longer the "established" church in the way it had been after the reformation with its links to the state, All these movements within the church has had its effects on the records which we can access today. For instance I have parish records of the birth and baptisms of four children to George Brander and Ann Durno in Huntly from 1841 to 1854 which state that they were named and baptised before the F C congregation ie Free Church. But they did not appear in the Parish Register until 1854 having been entered retrospectively. Fortunate for Brander researchers but how many more births of that period were not entered in the parish register. George Brander in Huntly had a certain social standing in the community which may have led him to approach the Parish church to have his children entered on the register but how many did not bother. In the records of Ordiquhill there is a note attached to the session book from James Brander the blacksmith where he lists the names of his five children their birthdates and where they were born from 1834 to 1844. He writes* "Sir you will have the goodness to correct this yourself as it is not in may power to come over"* He then adds a terse side note *"put this in the sesion book"* Another example of retrospective entries! From the tone of the note i do not think relations betwen James Brander and the Session Clerk were all that good. I also have records of numerous births and baptisms at Glass between 1759 and registration in 1855, most of which mention the name of the "wife" but there are no corresponding Marriage records for Glass between 1796 and 1838! But I am sure that most of these births were from regular marriages. regards George On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Gavin Bell <g.bell@which.net> wrote: > Anne Burgess wrote: > > > > >>Many people belonged to other Christian groups other than the > >>main churches > >>Anglican, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic. > > > > Not true in Scotland, by and large. There were historically very > > few people who did not belong to one or another of these groups. > > > > > Great minds obviously think alike - but your messages are still coming > up with the wrong date (this one says 6th February). This means that > (on my machine at least) your messages do not appear at the top of my > Inbox, and have to be rummaged for, so there is a danger of wasting your > substance on the desert air. > > > Gavin > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- George Brander Torre de la Horadada España

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Forfarian Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2379.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I think that I would go along with them being one and the same, with an error in the death certificate. Have you found them in all the various censuses? I assume that the 17-year-old Alexander Williamson in the 1851 census at Upper Urquhart is your one? Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

1. It could be a mistake on the Death Register of course. 2.She could have married a brother or cousin if her first husband died. 3.There is a the following on http://libindx.moray.gov.uk ( which is free to searchg and possible as she is from Urquhart). It doesn't state her husband but the poor register will probably give more details. Ask the kind people at LIBINDX for a look up and they will also send you a copy for a small amount.Info on the website. Biography Details Reference No.:  NM218040 Surname:  WILLIAMSON Forename(s):  HELEN Maiden Name:  HAY Occupation:  FIELD LABOURER Date of Birth:  c. 1799 Place of Birth:   Father's Name:   Mother's Name:   Biography:   Marriage Details Spouse's Name:   Date of Marriage:   Place of Marriage:   Married by:   Marriage Narrative:   Death Details Date of Death:  post 1880 Age:   Headstone Ref:   Place of Death:   Parish Register:   Death Narrative:   Newspaper Articles Newspaper Description  Date  Page/Column Miscellaneous Articles Date Description Miscellaneous 1873-1881 entry in register of poor for parish of Urquhart - MF D Ur1 [GRC archives - ZPUr A5/1 p87] 4.Alexander WILLIAMSON marriage to Helen HAY may not be recorded. Regards Karen The Good You Do Comes Back To You. --- On Mon, 15/2/10, gc-gateway@rootsweb.com <gc-gateway@rootsweb.com> wrote: From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com <gc-gateway@rootsweb.com> Subject: [MORAY] Quandry about Alexander WILLIAMSON of Blackdam, Urquhart To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 13:42 This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: mervally99 Surnames: WILLIAMSON, HAY Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2379/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hello All, I am looking for some guidance from all you learned people about what I consider to be a probable error when giving the parents names on a death certificate. The situation gets a little complicated so please bear with me. I have an Alexander WILLIAMSON on my side of the family, born c.1834 in Speymouth. He was married to Isabella Mitchell. When he died in 1891 in Dr. Grays in Elgin, his widow gave his parents names as Alexander WILLIAMSON, Tailor, and Helen HAY, both deceased. On my wifes side of the family she has William WILLIAMSON married to one Helen HAY. Both of them were born in Urquhart, William about 1786 and Helen about 1792. They had 10 children that I know of, the last being Alexander born 12th March 1833 in Urquhart. Now I can find no evidence of any Alexander WILLIAMSON marrying Helen HAY but do have William WILLIAMSON marrying Helen HAY on the 23rd of January 1812 in Urquhart. As far as deaths go there are 2 Helen WILLIAMSON's, maiden name HAY, dying between 1855 and 1891, one my wife's married to William, the other aged only 37, so too young to be a candidate. I do feel that a mistake was made on Alexanders death certificate and that his father should be William not Alexander. The birth dates for the two Alexanders are close to a match, the fact that one birth place is Speymouth and the other Urquhart is not a problem for me as I have seen numerous census where the two seem interchangeable. My inclination is to make the connection between the two, making them the same person with a note showing the apparently fictional Alexander on the death certificate. What are the views of the list? Unfortunately there are too many Alexander and William WILLIAMSON's to check all the census for possible candidates, my wallet could not take the pressure, so do any of you have any suggestions? Many thanks, Mark Whitton. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pentlands wrote: Looking again at George's original query: >> Which leads me to ask if you could perhaps help me in locating the >> marriage of my G.G.Gf William Rose (1804) to Margaret Young (1810) >> in about 1834. I have not been able to locate their marriage record >> and it may be because it was 'irregular' in nature as you describe. >> >> >> Together they had at least 4 children, as follows, born in >> Scotland. Ann Rose (1835) Urquhart, Moray Elizabeth Rose (1837) >> Urquhart, Moray Mary Rose (1838) Urquhart, Moray; and my G.Gf >> William Rose (1840) Urquhart, Moray. >> >> At each of their baptisms the above children are described as being >> the lawful children of William Rose and Margaret Young 'his spouse' >> / 'his wife'. ... it strikes me that, if the children were described as "lawful", then it is highly unlikely that their parents' marriage was "irregular", but that (for whatever reason - and there are plenty of possible explanations) their marriage simply did not get recorded in the Registers. Gavin Bell

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: mervally99 Surnames: WILLIAMSON, HAY Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2379/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hello All, I am looking for some guidance from all you learned people about what I consider to be a probable error when giving the parents names on a death certificate. The situation gets a little complicated so please bear with me. I have an Alexander WILLIAMSON on my side of the family, born c.1834 in Speymouth. He was married to Isabella Mitchell. When he died in 1891 in Dr. Grays in Elgin, his widow gave his parents names as Alexander WILLIAMSON, Tailor, and Helen HAY, both deceased. On my wifes side of the family she has William WILLIAMSON married to one Helen HAY. Both of them were born in Urquhart, William about 1786 and Helen about 1792. They had 10 children that I know of, the last being Alexander born 12th March 1833 in Urquhart. Now I can find no evidence of any Alexander WILLIAMSON marrying Helen HAY but do have William WILLIAMSON marrying Helen HAY on the 23rd of January 1812 in Urquhart. As far as deaths go there are 2 Helen WILLIAMSON's, maiden name HAY, dying between 1855 and 1891, one my wife's married to William, the other aged only 37, so too young to be a candidate. I do feel that a mistake was made on Alexanders death certificate and that his father should be William not Alexander. The birth dates for the two Alexanders are close to a match, the fact that one birth place is Speymouth and the other Urquhart is not a problem for me as I have seen numerous census where the two seem interchangeable. My inclination is to make the connection between the two, making them the same person with a note showing the apparently fictional Alexander on the death certificate. What are the views of the list? Unfortunately there are too many Alexander and William WILLIAMSON's to check all the census for possible candidates, my wallet could not take the pressure, so do any of you have any suggestions? Many thanks, Mark Whitton. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Something is fishy here.........The wife is 50 and the son is age 1? But yes, that's what it says. I'd be going to Scotland's People and see what I could find..........Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "liz foulis" <e.foulis@sky.com> To: <MORAY@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [MORAY] Peter Keil >I am looking for a Peter Keel/Kiel b 05 Jul 1823 in Mortlach son of James > Keel & Elspet Ross I found a Peter Keil aged 23 on the 1851 census at > Kirkton St Mortlach with his wife and son , wife is Jana born > Edinburgh > aged 50 and son Peter aged 1. I can't find a marriage for Peter and Jana > or > a birth for the son and can't find them after the 1851 Census > > Any help much appreciated > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello George. I cannot offer any real help regarding your Wm Rose and Margart Young. I see that they also had a daughter born on 4.9.1833 and Christened on the 16th, named Jannet (sic). You didn't list her although you may already know of her. Nelson and Gavin are very knowledgeable on the subject, so I hope you gain some help from their postings. Sheila. George Rose wrote: > Hello Sheila, > > Thank you for sharing your information with us about 'Irregular Marriages' in Scotland. Most interesting indeed. > > Which leads me to ask if you could perhaps help me in locating the marriage of my G.G.Gf William Rose (1804) to Margaret Young (1810) in about 1834. > I have not been able to locate their marriage record and it may be because it was 'irregular' in nature as you describe. > > Together they had at least 4 children, as follows, born in Scotland. > Ann Rose (1835) Urquhart, Moray > Elizabeth Rose (1837) Urquhart, Moray > Mary Rose (1838) Urquhart, Moray; and my G.Gf > William Rose (1840) Urquhart, Moray. > > At each of their baptisms the above children are described as being the lawful children of William Rose and Margaret Young 'his spouse' / 'his wife'. > > It appears that William (1804) and his family migrated south from the Meft area of Urquhart into Yorkshire, England shortly after son William's birth in (1840). > > Two more children were born in Yorkshire - Margaret Rose (1841) and James Rose (1843) - before they moved again in about 1844 into Warwickshire where more daughter were born. > > I believe Margaret Young / Rose was b.25.09.1810, c.30.09.1810 Urquhart, > (Ouhort) Moray. > In the 1881 census she is found in London aged 70, widowed, and gives herself as having been born in Urquhart, Scotland. She is in company with her granddaughter Theresa (1857) who was born in Teddington, (Tiddington) Alveston, Warwickshire. > > I believe G.G.Gf William Rose was b.18.07.1804, c.20.07.1804 Ardclach, Nairn. > > There is much more of interest to share with other Listers in respect of this family and line and I am more than willing to do so. I am a private researcher. > If you can assist me in respect of any of this family and in particular the marriage of William Rose and Margaret Young, I should be most grateful. > > Best reagrds > George F. Rose > in the Bermuda Islands > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Anne Burgess wrote: > >>Many people belonged to other Christian groups other than the >>main churches >>Anglican, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic. > > Not true in Scotland, by and large. There were historically very > few people who did not belong to one or another of these groups. > Great minds obviously think alike - but your messages are still coming up with the wrong date (this one says 6th February). This means that (on my machine at least) your messages do not appear at the top of my Inbox, and have to be rummaged for, so there is a danger of wasting your substance on the desert air. Gavin

Nelson Denton wrote: > Many people belonged to other Christian groups other than the main churches > Anglican, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic. Not in Scotland, they didn't. There were local concentrations of Roman Catholic and Episcopal congregations ("Anglican" is a later label), but in Scotland, the majority of people belonged to churches which would be best described as "Presbyterian", even if they were separate from the Kirk of Scotland. There were, from early in the 18th century, successive waves of secession from the Kirk of Scotland - and then secessions from the secessions - but the differences between all these splinter groups were often more apparent than real, and most of these churches had beliefs and organisational structures very similar to those of the Kirk of Scotland. > These Dissenters, Non-Conformists, Quakers, Dunkers, Anabaptists, > Mennonites, Amish, Puritans, Brethren You are confusing categories here. "Dissenters" and "Non-Conformists" mean pretty well the same thing, and are simply labels for those who did not belong to the Estabished Church - they say nothing about the beliefs or organisations of those who dissented or failed to conform. And while "Quakers, Anabaptists, Mennonites etc" are the names of specific groups with recognisable beliefs, their incidence, in Scotland, varies between "rare" and "unkown". > etc often held views that every man > should tell the truth at all times and that God Knows All. So therefore such > things as taking oaths, signing legal documents and perfoming fancy > ceremonies like church weddings was unneccessary. They were were often very > outspoken of their hatred towards the mainsteam churches and would never > even enter one. All that sounds like a rather broad generalisation, in view of the wide differences in belief which existed between various of the sects you mention. And reading the rest of your post, it strikes me that, while the circumstances you describe may well have occurred in North America, they really did not apply in Scotland. > So many of these people although they attended "Church" > faithfully didn't go to those who recorded marriages etc. Civil or simple > private home marriages were the only alternative for these people. Mixed > marriages (Catholic-Protestant-Jewish-etc) or divorced couples were of > course shunned by the Church Again, wide of the mark for Scotland, where (a) there were very few Jews, other than in the major cities, and not many there and (b) no realistic possibility of divorce for anyone other than the very wealthy. And while the Kirk of Scotland might thunder against "Papists" or Non-Conformists, it did not go in for "shunning" non-members - you will find numerous cases, in the Registers of the kirk of Scotland, where the marriages of these same "Papists" or "Dissenters" are recorded. > and had little choice but to go for a civil/common-law marriage There was no such thing as a "civil marriage" in Scotland until 1940, and as Scotland has always retained its own distinctive legal system, based on Roman Law, rather than the "Common Law" which forms the basis of the English and North American legal systems, there was no such thing as a "common-law marriage" either. There were forms of marriage described as "irregular", but while these were frowned upon by the Kirk of Scotland, they were perfectly valid under the Law of Scotland. Gavin Bell

George Rose wrote: > Thank you for sharing your information with us about 'Irregular > Marriages' in Scotland. Most interesting indeed. > > Which leads me to ask if you could perhaps help me in locating the > marriage of my G.G.Gf William Rose (1804) to Margaret Young (1810) in > about 1834. I have not been able to locate their marriage record and > it may be because it was 'irregular' in nature as you describe. It might be. But it is also possible that the marriage was quite "regular" - ie carried out by the Minister after the Proclamations had been read on three separate Sabbaths - but that they never had the fact recorded in the Register. There was normally a payment to the Session Clerk for recording a marriage or a baptism, and not everyone bothered. Gavin Bell

Many people belonged to other Christian groups other than the main churches Anglican, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic. These Dissenters, Non-Conformists, Quakers, Dunkers, Anabaptists, Mennonites, Amish, Puritans, Brethren etc often held views that every man should tell the truth at all times and that God Knows All. So therefore such things as taking oaths, signing legal documents and perfoming fancy ceremonies like church weddings was unneccessary. They were were often very outspoken of their hatred towards the mainsteam churches and would never even enter one. So many of these people although they attended "Church" faithfully didn't go to those who recorded marriages etc. Civil or simple private home marriages were the only alternative for these people. Mixed marriages (Catholic-Protestant-Jewish-etc) or divorced couples were of course shunned by the Church and had little choice but to go for a civil /common-law marriage In the North American colonies it was often very difficult to get Any clergyman to vist your village for months on end so most people simply held public civil marriages where the Banns were read in public and the townsfolk simply acknowledged the couple as being "married" from that point on. In the military where a soldier's widow as given only a day or two to remarry the new couple would jump over a broom or pass under crossed swords to celebrate their marriage vows. The mainstream churches however were always very upset that these people could get married without paying and hounded and fined the people all the time. So don't think your ancestors were "Living in Sin" or were "Ungodly" they simply may have held very strong views that just didn't fit in with the majority. Nelson Denton No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2684 - Release Date: 02/12/10 14:35:00

Hello Sheila, Thank you for sharing your information with us about 'Irregular Marriages' in Scotland. Most interesting indeed. Which leads me to ask if you could perhaps help me in locating the marriage of my G.G.Gf William Rose (1804) to Margaret Young (1810) in about 1834. I have not been able to locate their marriage record and it may be because it was 'irregular' in nature as you describe. Together they had at least 4 children, as follows, born in Scotland. Ann Rose (1835) Urquhart, Moray Elizabeth Rose (1837) Urquhart, Moray Mary Rose (1838) Urquhart, Moray; and my G.Gf William Rose (1840) Urquhart, Moray. At each of their baptisms the above children are described as being the lawful children of William Rose and Margaret Young 'his spouse' / 'his wife'. It appears that William (1804) and his family migrated south from the Meft area of Urquhart into Yorkshire, England shortly after son William's birth in (1840). Two more children were born in Yorkshire - Margaret Rose (1841) and James Rose (1843) - before they moved again in about 1844 into Warwickshire where more daughter were born. I believe Margaret Young / Rose was b.25.09.1810, c.30.09.1810 Urquhart, (Ouhort) Moray. In the 1881 census she is found in London aged 70, widowed, and gives herself as having been born in Urquhart, Scotland. She is in company with her granddaughter Theresa (1857) who was born in Teddington, (Tiddington) Alveston, Warwickshire. I believe G.G.Gf William Rose was b.18.07.1804, c.20.07.1804 Ardclach, Nairn. There is much more of interest to share with other Listers in respect of this family and line and I am more than willing to do so. I am a private researcher. If you can assist me in respect of any of this family and in particular the marriage of William Rose and Margaret Young, I should be most grateful. Best reagrds George F. Rose in the Bermuda Islands

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: fionacmacdonald Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/1226.2.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Thanks Gordon - I will see if I can trace back further Regards Fiona Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Many thanks, Shiela, for passing on this information ... has helped to explain some 'marriage gaps' within my own research. Regards Pat in Western Australia -----Original Message----- From: moray-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:moray-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Pentlands Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2010 1:36 AM To: moray@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MORAY] Irregular marriages. Hello Alastair The practice was widespread. The following is quoted from the Scottish Record Office book on Scottish Ancestors so if you, or any other listers, have odd queries do get in touch and I shall see if the answer is in this book. 'Irregular Marriages Until 1940, irregular marriages, in the form of a declaration by the parties before witnesses, but not before an established clergyman, were perfectly legal. However, such marriages were frowned upon. The parties might be rebuked by their kirk session and they and their witnesses were liable to be fined. Thus evidence of such marriages may be found in kirk session minutes and in burgh and JP court records. They are further explained in the introduction to Calendar of Irregular Marriages in the South Leith Kirk Session Records 1697-1818 (Scottish Record Society). The Ewart Library in Dumfries is the best source of information about irregular marriages at Gretna Green. The SRO has copies of registers of similar marriages at Lamberton Toll, Berwickshire 1833-1849.' Many went on to marry at a later date due to the church chasing them up. They had to pay to be married by a clergyman and it was a substantial amount of money, so we can understand why many just lived together as man and wife. I could only find one record, typical when we search on the spur of the moment! The cost in 1793 was 1/2d. - one shilling two pence. Sheila. Alastair Macdonald wrote: > Hello Sheila, > > Many thanks for the explanation. Yes, I would like further information on such irregular marriages. Was the practice widespread, do you know? This could account for the many instances I have found, including my own g. grandfather, where there are lawful children born but where I have been unable to find a Marriage in the OPR. > Regards, Alastair > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonSmith552 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/1226.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Fiona, There might be a connection in another generation to the one which you quote. My list is as follows: John Smith - Staymaker and Auctioner married to Esther Williamson in 1805 Children: James b. 1783 Anne b. 1785 Alexander b. 1787 Margaret b. 1789 Jean b. 1792 John b. 1795 Katharine b. 1797 James who married to Margaret Fraser in Bishopmill in 1805. He became a Master Glover and Corn miller during the first half of the 1800's in Bishopmill. Katharine was married to James Grant in 1823. Perhaps if you can work your way back to this group. Cheers Gordon Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Just to point out that not all irregular marriages were due to monetary considerations. Sometimes there was a gap in parish ministers, sometimes there was a dispute regarding the direction the Church of Scotland was taking at the time, and, sometimes the proclamation elicted an objection. I have a couple in my tree who had three children before they were married in church. The groom's father kept objecting every time the banns were proclaimed. He felt that the woman was still married, even though her husband had left for "America" years before and no one had ever heard from him again. As soon as the father died, the couple got married in church. -- Jo-Ann Croft

Hello Alastair The practice was widespread. The following is quoted from the Scottish Record Office book on Scottish Ancestors so if you, or any other listers, have odd queries do get in touch and I shall see if the answer is in this book. 'Irregular Marriages Until 1940, irregular marriages, in the form of a declaration by the parties before witnesses, but not before an established clergyman, were perfectly legal. However, such marriages were frowned upon. The parties might be rebuked by their kirk session and they and their witnesses were liable to be fined. Thus evidence of such marriages may be found in kirk session minutes and in burgh and JP court records. They are further explained in the introduction to Calendar of Irregular Marriages in the South Leith Kirk Session Records 1697-1818 (Scottish Record Society). The Ewart Library in Dumfries is the best source of information about irregular marriages at Gretna Green. The SRO has copies of registers of similar marriages at Lamberton Toll, Berwickshire 1833-1849.' Many went on to marry at a later date due to the church chasing them up. They had to pay to be married by a clergyman and it was a substantial amount of money, so we can understand why many just lived together as man and wife. I could only find one record, typical when we search on the spur of the moment! The cost in 1793 was 1/2d. - one shilling two pence. Sheila. Alastair Macdonald wrote: > Hello Sheila, > > Many thanks for the explanation. Yes, I would like further information on such irregular marriages. Was the practice widespread, do you know? This could account for the many instances I have found, including my own g. grandfather, where there are lawful children born but where I have been unable to find a Marriage in the OPR. > Regards, Alastair > > >

Hello Sheila, Many thanks for the explanation. Yes, I would like further information on such irregular marriages. Was the practice widespread, do you know? This could account for the many instances I have found, including my own g. grandfather, where there are lawful children born but where I have been unable to find a Marriage in the OPR. Regards, Alastair