I have the original and the word is very clear. There is no question about what it says. Margaret is recorded with a John Shand family in Mortlach, Banffshire. John SHAND, head, widowed, age 60, blacksmith, b Aberlour, Banffshire Charles SHAND, son, unmarried, age 16, scholar, b Mortlach, Banffshire Margaret SHAND, servant, unmarried, age 29, house servant, b Shearerstown, Morayshire -- Jo-Ann -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Anne Burgess" <anne.burgess@btinternet.com> > > Is this from FreeCEN or have you seen the original? >

> Neglected Entry dated 3 April, 1890 > Entry 554, Birth. John MILNE, Architect in Elgin, son of > James MILNE, > Blacksmith and Catherine WILSON or MILNE, his wife both now > deceased was > born on the 5th day of November, 1843 at Number 39 North > College Street > in the Parish and County of Elgin. The really intriguing thing is why this information should have been added to the Canongate RNE when John Milne was 46 years of age, and 35 years after the start of civil registration. Why so late, and why such a long way from home? Incidentally in 1881 he was described as an architect, unmarried, living with his sister Eliza, 55 and mother Catherine, 79, at 274 High Street, Forres. All three were born in Elgin. Anne

> I have a Margaret SHAND, age 29, unmarried, in the 1851 census > who is shown > as born in Shearerstown, Morayshire. Does anyone have any > idea where that > was? None at all. (I have heard of Shandstown, which is in Boharm). Is this from FreeCEN or have you seen the original? I note with interest that a Margaret Shand, aged 15, born Moray, was a servant at Arndilly in Boharm in the 1841 census. Anne

Might he have been applying for some pension or other fund to assist his living expenses and found he was not registered ? I can only think he was somehow needing legal documentation that he was born in Elgin [or somewhere] and found he wasn't originally registered in the county of his birth. If he wrote to Edinburgh with evidence of his birthplace, perhaps they registered him there [Edinburgh] ? Is that the parish where Edinburgh sits ? Its Midlothian County, but I am not that familiar with the local parishes and what they contain. GENUKI has information and a link for a map. Canongate is near the city center but its a large city and could be way past the facilities I'm thinking of. The film this came off of is Canongate Old Parish Records. It included a section called Neglected Entries and had a book specifically dedicated for those entries. MegG ------------------------

If you're interested in John Milne, here is info. from Libindx LIBINDX ONLINE GENEALOGICAL SEARCH If your roots are in Moray and you have some basic facts to build on, you can employ the resources of The Moray Council’s Local Heritage Centre to help trace your family tree. The Local Heritage Centre at Grant Lodge holds a comprehensive collection of unique records. These can make the difference between success and failure in your search. Biography Details Reference No.: NM006850 Surname: MILNE Forename(s): JOHN Maiden Name: Occupation: ARCHITECT & BURGH SURVEYOR & ASSESSOR & SANITARY INSPECTOR Date of Birth: 05 NOV 1843 Place of Birth: ELGIN Father's Name: Mother's Name: Biography: WORKED IN ELGIN & FORRES & LIVERPOOL Marriage Details Spouse's Name: Date of Marriage: Place of Marriage: Married by: Marriage Narrative: Death Details Date of Death: 10 JUL 1912 Age: 68 Headstone Ref: Ec517 Place of Death: 12 ABBEY STREET ELGIN Parish Register: Death Narrative: Newspaper Articles Newspaper Description Date Page/Column FG contract for designing new Free Church at Dallas 01/06/1870 2/3 FG opening of business at 2 Milnes Wynd, Forres 08/02/1871 1/1 FG opening of business 08/02/1871 2/4 MNE move of business to 219 High Street, Elgin 06/02/1886 1/1 COURANT death 12/07/1912 1/1 COURANT obituary 12/07/1912 5/3 FN death 13/07/1912 1/1 FN death 13/07/1912 1/1 FN obituary 13/07/1912 4/1 FN obituary 13/07/1912 4/1 FG obituary 17/07/1912 3/6 FG death 17/07/1912 2/6 Miscellaneous Articles Date Description Miscellaneous 1878 report on repairs to ecclesiastical buildings in Forres - DBA HFo77/878/1 Photographs & Illustrations 1912 "Northern Scot Christmas number" p40 - L 079 ---- Meg Greenwood <scotquester@bartnet.net> wrote: > These OPRs were amazing to read in that there was so much detail in > them. Here is an entry in the Canongate Neglected Entries book . It > mentions an Elgin man. Meg Greenwood / Oklahoma USA > -------------------------- > > Neglected Entry dated 3 April, 1890 > Entry 554, Birth. John MILNE, Architect in Elgin, son of James MILNE, > Blacksmith and Catherine WILSON or MILNE, his wife both now deceased was > born on the 5th day of November, 1843 at Number 39 North College Street > in the Parish and County of Elgin. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

To Pentlands, please repeat your message as the main body was not included. John Milne enlimjr7@sympatico.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pentlands" <fmckinnear@sky.com> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:27 AM Subject: [MORAY] [Fwd: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Canongate OPRs, Ross, Petrie, Milne and Wilson mentioned] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

These OPRs were amazing to read in that there was so much detail in them. Here is an entry in the Canongate Neglected Entries book . It mentions an Elgin man. Meg Greenwood / Oklahoma USA -------------------------- Neglected Entry dated 3 April, 1890 Entry 554, Birth. John MILNE, Architect in Elgin, son of James MILNE, Blacksmith and Catherine WILSON or MILNE, his wife both now deceased was born on the 5th day of November, 1843 at Number 39 North College Street in the Parish and County of Elgin.

I have a Margaret SHAND, age 29, unmarried, in the 1851 census who is shown as born in Shearerstown, Morayshire. Does anyone have any idea where that was? -- Jo-Ann Croft

Hi Mark, I think I may have solved your mystery. I have the same Williamson line in my family and the tree is: John Williamson m Christian Hossack One of their children - William Williamson m Helen Hay One of their children is Alexander Williamson m Isabela Mitchell (I don't have any record of their descendants). I am the a descendant of another child of John Williamson's and Christian Hossack - namely Alexander Williamson m Elspet Sandison. One of their children Jane Williamson married a James Taylor. Love to chat more and explore and share with you. The Willaimsons and Taylors appear to have shared the Blackdam Farm. I am a Taylor. Regards, Douglas Taylor Australia > From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:42:30 +0000 > Subject: [MORAY] Quandry about Alexander WILLIAMSON of Blackdam, Urquhart > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: mervally99 > Surnames: WILLIAMSON, HAY > Classification: queries > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2379/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > Hello All, > > I am looking for some guidance from all you learned people about what I consider to be a probable error when giving the parents names on a death certificate. > > The situation gets a little complicated so please bear with me. > > I have an Alexander WILLIAMSON on my side of the family, born c.1834 in Speymouth. He was married to Isabella Mitchell. When he died in 1891 in Dr. Grays in Elgin, his widow gave his parents names as Alexander WILLIAMSON, Tailor, and Helen HAY, both deceased. > On my wifes side of the family she has William WILLIAMSON married to one Helen HAY. Both of them were born in Urquhart, William about 1786 and Helen about 1792. They had 10 children that I know of, the last being Alexander born 12th March 1833 in Urquhart. > > Now I can find no evidence of any Alexander WILLIAMSON marrying Helen HAY but do have William WILLIAMSON marrying Helen HAY on the 23rd of January 1812 in Urquhart. > As far as deaths go there are 2 Helen WILLIAMSON's, maiden name HAY, dying between 1855 and 1891, one my wife's married to William, the other aged only 37, so too young to be a candidate. > > I do feel that a mistake was made on Alexanders death certificate and that his father should be William not Alexander. The birth dates for the two Alexanders are close to a match, the fact that one birth place is Speymouth and the other Urquhart is not a problem for me as I have seen numerous census where the two seem interchangeable. > > My inclination is to make the connection between the two, making them the same person with a note showing the apparently fictional Alexander on the death certificate. > > What are the views of the list? Unfortunately there are too many Alexander and William WILLIAMSON's to check all the census for possible candidates, my wallet could not take the pressure, so do any of you have any suggestions? > > Many thanks, > > Mark Whitton. > > Important Note: > The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Looking for a place to rent, share or buy? Find your next place with ninemsn Property http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/

Hi George I tried to send an attachment to your e-mail address as the list doesn't accept them. I have contacted you separately. The information was from the IGI. There is a Jean/Jane born to William Rose and Jean Young and it is an extracted entry. Perhaps they were cousins. I have found that was common in the Highlands. You could try looking for their deaths. Sheila. George Rose wrote: > Hi Sheila, > > Thanks for letting me know about Jannet Rose (1833) at Urquhart to William Rose and Margt. Young. I have added her to my family tree. > I did not have a record of her and would be grateful to know your source so that I can perhaps gain a little more information which my be available. > Jannet does not show up in later census records as being with the family in England. > > Interestingly, on the same family, I have details about a Jean (Jane) Rose having been born/bapt in 1831 at Urquhart, Moray to William Rose and JeanYoung. > On the face of it, it appears that two different William Roses exist here - one married to Margaret Young and the other to Jean Young. > Only Jean (Jane) Rose shows up as a dau. with the family of William / Margaret Rose in the 1841 census in England. I suspect clerical errors here but the mystery remains and is inconclusive at present. > > I am still looking for birth/bapt. of details Samuel Rose who appears in the 1841 census (in England) as a member of the same family of William and Margaret. He shows as born in Scotland and aged 8 years making his birth years circa. 1833. > > Regards > George > >

George, I agree with Goldie but must add that saying 'thank you' means a lot, and is appreciated. Goldie, lucky you! Do you have room in your suitcase for a not so little one? Have a lovely time on holiday. Sheila. A Scot on the wrong side of the border. goldie and Lido Doratti wrote: > No thanks required for me, I do so little to help. I am going to > unsubscribe tomorrow....off to Aloha land and palm trees...Goldie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Rose" <gfr@logic.bm> > To: <moray@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:00 AM > Subject: [MORAY] Irregular Mariages / Roses of Kilravock > > > >> On the subject of 'Irregular Marriages' I need to thank the following for >> sharing their impressive knowledge on the subject. >> Learned material indeed and thanks go to: Anne, Gavin, George, Goldie, >> Karen, Nelson and Sheila. >> >> If any of you are concerned with research into the Roses of Kilravock >> Castle (Nairnshire) or their cadet lines / associates (some in Morayshire) >> please contact me through this site or at gfr@ibl.bm >> >> George F. Rose >> Bermuda >> >>

yep..got the room and a spare room there........too bad you're so far away........and Thanks!! Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pentlands" <fmckinnear@sky.com> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [MORAY] Irregular Mariages / Roses of Kilravock > George, I agree with Goldie but must add that saying 'thank you' means a > lot, and is appreciated. > > Goldie, lucky you! Do you have room in your suitcase for a not so little > one? > > Have a lovely time on holiday. > > Sheila. > A Scot on the wrong side of the border. > > > > goldie and Lido Doratti wrote: >> No thanks required for me, I do so little to help. I am going to >> unsubscribe tomorrow....off to Aloha land and palm trees...Goldie >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "George Rose" <gfr@logic.bm> >> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:00 AM >> Subject: [MORAY] Irregular Mariages / Roses of Kilravock >> >> >> >>> On the subject of 'Irregular Marriages' I need to thank the following >>> for >>> sharing their impressive knowledge on the subject. >>> Learned material indeed and thanks go to: Anne, Gavin, George, Goldie, >>> Karen, Nelson and Sheila. >>> >>> If any of you are concerned with research into the Roses of Kilravock >>> Castle (Nairnshire) or their cadet lines / associates (some in >>> Morayshire) >>> please contact me through this site or at gfr@ibl.bm >>> >>> George F. Rose >>> Bermuda >>> >>> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Sheila, Thanks for letting me know about Jannet Rose (1833) at Urquhart to William Rose and Margt. Young. I have added her to my family tree. I did not have a record of her and would be grateful to know your source so that I can perhaps gain a little more information which my be available. Jannet does not show up in later census records as being with the family in England. Interestingly, on the same family, I have details about a Jean (Jane) Rose having been born/bapt in 1831 at Urquhart, Moray to William Rose and JeanYoung. On the face of it, it appears that two different William Roses exist here - one married to Margaret Young and the other to Jean Young. Only Jean (Jane) Rose shows up as a dau. with the family of William / Margaret Rose in the 1841 census in England. I suspect clerical errors here but the mystery remains and is inconclusive at present. I am still looking for birth/bapt. of details Samuel Rose who appears in the 1841 census (in England) as a member of the same family of William and Margaret. He shows as born in Scotland and aged 8 years making his birth years circa. 1833. Regards George

On the subject of 'Irregular Marriages' I need to thank the following for sharing their impressive knowledge on the subject. Learned material indeed and thanks go to: Anne, Gavin, George, Goldie, Karen, Nelson and Sheila. If any of you are concerned with research into the Roses of Kilravock Castle (Nairnshire) or their cadet lines / associates (some in Morayshire) please contact me through this site or at gfr@ibl.bm George F. Rose Bermuda

No thanks required for me, I do so little to help. I am going to unsubscribe tomorrow....off to Aloha land and palm trees...Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rose" <gfr@logic.bm> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:00 AM Subject: [MORAY] Irregular Mariages / Roses of Kilravock > On the subject of 'Irregular Marriages' I need to thank the following for > sharing their impressive knowledge on the subject. > Learned material indeed and thanks go to: Anne, Gavin, George, Goldie, > Karen, Nelson and Sheila. > > If any of you are concerned with research into the Roses of Kilravock > Castle (Nairnshire) or their cadet lines / associates (some in Morayshire) > please contact me through this site or at gfr@ibl.bm > > George F. Rose > Bermuda > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: LAandJA Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2379.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I have found this a lot with families that seem to have the same name used. A lot of times, they go by their middle name, because sometimes their father was named the same. My grandfather was baptised Albert John ARTER. But, in Canada, he is only known by John Albert ARTER. If I didn't know this, I would never have found him on the Census in England. So, this could possibly be the explaination. Nicknames are also used, but I mostly see the middle name used. Judy Anderson ms STABLES South Surrey, B.C. Canada lorneanderson@shaw.ca Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Hi Goldie Your mention of Brander in your Shearer line reminded me of some other retrospective registrations which I have come across. Donald Shearer in Cairnhead, Glass and Isabel Brander had three children registered in 1807 but they were born in 1790 (Alexr), 1794 (John) and 1798 (George). The witnesses in 1790 were George Forbes and Alex Gairtly whilst in 1794 and 1798 the witnesses were John Wall and George Robson. Are these your Shearers' Goldie? If so do you know why the registrations were made 17 years after the first birth. One explanation could be that young Alexr at the age of 17 wanted to be come a full communicant member of the Kirk and found out that he did not appear on the parish baptismal register but there may be other explanations By the way, is the John Shearer b 1794 the same John who married Isabel McDonald and lived at Gincomyres in Cairnie? My apologies for this appearing on the Moray list, by rights it should be on the Aberdeen list but it followed up the Irregular marriages thread and I believe the northern part of Cairnie did fall in Banffshire at one time. Regards George -- George Brander Torre de la Horadada España

John Shearer b 16 Apr 1791 Cairnie, m Isobel McDonald b 11 Aug 1797 from Mortlach, banns in Cairnie and Mortlach. They had 3 children, John b 1820 Mill of Botary Cairnie, m Janet Innes 1861 Ontario Canada; Isabella 1822 also Mill of Botary m James Dawson 1846 (stayed in Scotland) and Elisabeth b 1824 m James McWilliam 1851 also came to Canada. This family with the exception of Isabella all came to Canada in 1851. Janet Innes is a sister to my Grandfather Adam Innes and is buried in Fraser View Cemy, New Westminster BC. This is my connection. No idea why they arrpear so late, but like you, having done so many films of OPR's, it seems to be a fairly common thing. I suspect for some reason, the parents decided to look for themselves and found the baptism missing, but I'm only guessing. I found one Innes who wasn't even born in the parish registered in Huntly so I can tell you if someone was to go looking for him, they'd never find him. But it was written up with an explanation with the father giving oath the info was true. I know it's frustrating, but we just have to accept it. I have some Innes who have "Adam Innes and his lawful spouse..." but there's no mention of who she is or of a marriage. She was EGO, from Cairnie as well. If you have more info on this Gairtly fellow I'd be interested.......email direct. Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Brander" <george.brander@gmail.com> To: <Moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:13 AM Subject: [MORAY] SHEARER- BRANDER Retrospective Registrations Hi Goldie Your mention of Brander in your Shearer line reminded me of some other retrospective registrations which I have come across. Donald Shearer in Cairnhead, Glass and Isabel Brander had three children registered in 1807 but they were born in 1790 (Alexr), 1794 (John) and 1798 (George). The witnesses in 1790 were George Forbes and Alex Gairtly whilst in 1794 and 1798 the witnesses were John Wall and George Robson. Are these your Shearers' Goldie? If so do you know why the registrations were made 17 years after the first birth. One explanation could be that young Alexr at the age of 17 wanted to be come a full communicant member of the Kirk and found out that he did not appear on the parish baptismal register but there may be other explanations By the way, is the John Shearer b 1794 the same John who married Isabel McDonald and lived at Gincomyres in Cairnie? My apologies for this appearing on the Moray list, by rights it should be on the Aberdeen list but it followed up the Irregular marriages thread and I believe the northern part of Cairnie did fall in Banffshire at one time. Regards George -- George Brander Torre de la Horadada España ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Karendonald57 Surnames: WILLIAMSON HAY Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/2379.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: 1.It could be a mistake on the Death Register of course. 2.She could have married the brother or cousin of her first husband if he died. 3.There is a the following on http://libindx.moray.gov.uk ( which is free to search and a good possible as she is from Urquhart). It doesn't state who her husband is ,but the poor register will probably give more details. Ask the kind people at LIBINDX for a look up and they will also send you a copy for a small amount.Info on the website. Biography Details Reference No.:NM218040 Surname:WILLIAMSON Forename(s):HELEN Maiden Name:HAY Occupation:FIELD LABOURER Date of Birth:. 1799 Place of Birth: Father's Name: Mother's Name: Biography: Marriage Details Spouse's Name: Date of Marriage: Place of Marriage: Married by: Marriage Narrative: Death Details Date of Death:post 1880 Age: Headstone Ref: Place of Death: Parish Register: Death Narrative: Newspaper Articles Newspaper Description Date Page/Column Miscellaneous Articles Date Description Miscellaneous 1873-1881 entry in register of poor for parish of Urquhart - MF D Ur1 [GRC archives - ZPUr A5/1 p87] 4.Alexander WILLIAMSON marriage to Helen HAY may not be recorded. Regards Karen The Good You Do Comes Back To You. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Somewhere in my books of notes I have taken from films of OPR's, I took note of 2 marriages in which the couples were called to the Kirk Session Meetings and questioned on their marriages. They had not been married by the local Minister, and they confessed to being married by a 'Papist' Minister in Mortlach, I think. I just can't put my hands on the info, but I thought it odd at the time. Brander is in my Shearer tree, from Huntly, and my GGG grandmother was from Cairnie; also I have roots in Gartly parish. My personal opinion of some of the Kirk Session minutes is that many of them were 'a law unto themselves'...meaning they took it upon themselves to pass judgment on the Kirk members. While I realize this was their purpose, they set themselves above being judged. The Good Book tells us not to judge others, but some of them did and very harshly, and unfairly. But in the end, it is what it is, and we still have to be thankful they were God Abiding folks which has carried on down the lines. And also be thankful the old records are still around. For this I do give Thanks...I agree with what George has written ....Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Brander" <george.brander@gmail.com> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [MORAY] Irregular marriages. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message