What seems to be confusing the issue of multiple marriage ceremonies versus banns, is the assumption that the ceremonies took place in church. Please keep in mind that a marriage normally took place at the bride's home, the home of one of her relatives, or in some cases, a local non-religious public meeting place. Also, a marriage "contract" was a very common occurence. Most of them stated the basics, i.e. what each party was bringing to the marriage. In the event of the death of the husband, there would be a legal record of what the wife was entitled to beyond her widow's portion. If she had brought items such as linens or livestock, she was entitled to their return or the equivalent. Such contracts were often mentioned in wills, but seldom survive on their own as they were private documents and not registered within the legal system. -- Jo-Ann Croft

In a message dated 26/12/2004 11:31:36 GMT Standard Time, jecroft@att.net writes: Also, a marriage "contract" was a very common occurence. Most of them stated the basics, i.e. what each party was bringing to the marriage. In the event of the death of the husband, there would be a legal record of what the wife was entitled to beyond her widow's portion. If she had brought items such as linens or livestock, she was entitled to their return or the equivalent. Hi I have seen 'marriage contracts' such as is described above but these were legal documents involving the property brought to a union bearing in mind that in times past the husband assumed control of his wife's goods and chattels. These, I would think, were quite distinct from those contracts mentioned in the OPRs where you could find the parties were domestic servants or farm labourers, for instance, and had little or no property of value. Ian A C Scott

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Shiach Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/BgC.2ACI/81.1 Message Board Post: I am also researching Shiach families. Can we share?H

And as I understand, there´s an obligation to send mail to the group. Here´s my answer earlier to Howard. When Alexander Innes made his testament in 1811, he left the sum of fifty Pounds Sterling to the daughters of his half sister Sara Tarras, who had passed away. Sara was married to Alexander Robinson, and their daughters were Margaretha, Bathia and Elisabeth. Sara Tarras husband might be the man who was the witness in your story. Alexander Innes is an old ancestor to my wife. His father was Robert Innes, town clerk of Banff. My wife and I has planned a trip to Banff, where we will arrive on the 3d of Jan that is within a few days. Can you give us some good clues where to find out more about the Innes family in Banff. Are there any local archives that we could visit? Thanks for interesting information and have a good Christmas! In swedish that is God Jul och Gott Nytt År! Regards Kaj Andersson

I'm interested in Murray's theory about marriage records appearing in two parishes. I was always under the impression that two marriages took place because one of the parties was Roman Catholic. To make the marriage legal, a marriage had to take place in the Church of Scotland. That explained one marriage. Then, the couple might get married a second time in a Catholic Church. I know that this happened in my own Davidson family. Would anybody care to comment? Murray, do you have exact dates and places of births for the children you mention? I have a large data base of Davidsons but yours don't appear on it, probably because I've researched mainly in Banffshore. I'd like to add them. Alex Davidson, Cromarty, Scotland. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray Lynn" <m.lynn@paradise.net.nz> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [MORAY] RE: Davidson/Grant > Some more Davidsons: > Alexander Davidson m. Marion Margaret Grant, 27 Nov 1840. In the IGI > records the marriage is listed twice on the same date in both Elgin, and > in Cromdale and Inverallan and Advie. I understand it was common for the > churches of both the bride and groom to record the marriage in this > way. The family lived in Elgin and so I assume Alexander was from Elgin > and Marion from the Cromdale area. > > They had at least 6 children: > Robert, b 1841 > John, 1843 > Margaret Marion, 1847 who emigrated to NZ (my ggm) > Marjory, 1849 > Grace, 1854 > Alexander, 1856 > > I know very little about the family and would appreciate any information > or leads. > > I initially had a false lead from a family member who thought that the > parents of Margaret, my ggm, were James Davidson and Anne Souter of > Elgin. Consequently I do have some information on this family should > anyone be interested. > > Murray > > Christchurch, New Zealand > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Avalonwilli@aol.com [mailto:Avalonwilli@aol.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 11:55 > >To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [MORAY] RE: Davidson > > > >I have Peter Davidson married Ann Morrison both born about 1800 , > >Rayne. Next is Alexander Davidson married Mary Carle > >February 23 , 1861 My connection comes down > >to > >the Andersons from Aberdeen > >William > > > >______________________________ > > > > > >==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > >If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > > >============================== > >View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > >marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > >http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >

Forgot to copy the List when replying to Kaj. Here it is now: Re your other e-mail about Mr Sandy, there is a bit of confusion about exactly who Mr Sandy actually was. There was more than one Alexander Robertson Merchant operating at the same time in the same area, and it's been impossible to completely and reliably separate their details. However, my best guess is that Mr Sandy married Helen Inglis but co-habited with Isobel Brown (they "notoriously cohabit in adultery, notwithstanding the judgement of the House of Peers declaring him to be the husband of Helen Inglis" - Fordyce Kirk Session), by whom he had three children in 1785, 1786, 1789. He died 1790 in Edinburgh: "Alexander Robertson, (Mr. Sandy) a well known merchant and smuggler in Portsoy was believed to have ended his days in the Debtor's Sanctuary in Holyrood." The child of 1785 was named George Robinson Robertson, and one of his witnesses was Mr George Robinson Provost of Banff. As you imply, the names Robinson and Robertson also got confused (in fact the IGI has George Robinson Robertson listed as George Robinson and when you read the OPR itself you can see how the mistake was made), but said George Robinson seems also to have been Merchant of Banff. I had enough 'fun' chasing around the merchant Robertsons, I didn't go looking for merchant Robinsons! The other Alexander Robertson in the picture comes over to me as a much more stable character: Alexander Robertson bpt 27 Aug 1716 Keith, married Isobel Ord (one of my relatives) 1756 Botriphinie, and died abt 1776. He was a feuar. It has been stated that he was Mr Sandy, but whilst I believe that it was his brother James Robertson who became merchant in Portsoy, I believe it was another Alexander Robertson (viz Mr Sandy) who became James Robertson's business partner. It's confusing enough as it is with just the Robertson name; introducing a Robinson variation blows my mind completely!! Regards Howard

A Merry Christmas to one and all and a guid New Year Tom Researching , MACPHERSON in Hopeman, KING in the Elgin Area, and OGILVIE in the ELGIN Area.

My great-grandmother-in-law was Williamina (n LESLIE) GAMMIE born in Bucksburn, Abd. Her father was Theodore LESLIE, and there were lots of Theodores in that branch of the LESLIEs, originally from Marnoch, Banffshire. Anyone interested in LESLIEs? Fortunately there appear to be no Theodorinas, but I understand the feminine of Theodore (gift of God) is Dorothy (from Dorothea) as well as Theodora (hence Dora). I found none of those names among the womenfolk. One is still more fortunate not to have male names like Concert, Turpin, or Keros. Happy Christmas Chris Ridings -----Original Message----- From: Gay King [mailto:gayking@aci.on.ca] Sent: Thursday, 23 December 2004 1:34 To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [MORAY] RE: Names Hi, I have an ancestor who was baptized Alexanderina but on her marriage cert. it was Alexandra. Probably no one spelled her baptismal name correctly. It IS a bit awkward. Gay -----Original Message----- From: Anne Burgess [mailto:anne.burgess@btinternet.com] Sent: December 22, 2004 5:48 AM To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MORAY] RE: Names > In the 1841 Census of Aberdeenshire [draft transcription] there was only > one record of Alexandra but 19 of Alexandrina and 4 of Alexanderina. I > don't know what the modern spread is in N.E. Scotland but Alexandra is > almost certainly the most popular of these variants in England. This probably arises from naming a child after a male relative regardless of the sex of the child. A daughter would get the male name with '-ina' tacked on the end. Alexanderina isn't too bad, and Jamesina, Williamina, Robertina, Georgeina, Thomasina and Davidina are passable too. But I don't much like Johnina, and I am grateful not to have been named Gordonina after my father. I always feel rather sorry for girls (or rather women, as the name has fallen out of fashion) named Murdochina, though! Anne ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== Please do not send virus warnings to this list. If you have concerns about a virus, contact the list admin at MORAY-D-request@rootsweb.com or join VIRUS-DISCUSSIONS-L@rootsweb.com subscribe in the subject line. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ______________________________

Dear list, Heartfelt thanks for your contributions to this list (I think you all know who you are). I have learned so much from all of you and continue to look forward to different subjects in the New Year. Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us all. Wishing all of you a safe and happy holiday and good health in the New Year. Sherry Researching: CALDER / LAMB / MACKINTOSH / SELLARS / WILLIAMSON

There was an old Ontario expression "pulling a Sandy".Have not heard it for years but I believe it's modern equivalent would be "playing dumb".Probably arose from the actions of some canny Scots pretending that they "didna ken". Cheers Harry Montgomery in very snowy Toronto.

Hi Howard, Do you know if this man was married and if so, the name of his wife(s)? "....an infamous Portsoy Merchant Alexander Robertson (abt 1720 - 1790) was known to one and all as Mr Sandy, especially by his creditors who were chasing around most of Scotland trying to get hold of him." I´m curoius because I´ve found one Alexander Robinson in a testament in Sweden, that might be the one you´re telling about above. Best regards, Kaj Andersson

And that's just Alexander. Wait until one starts of Alexandra......Alex, Sandra &c Happy Christmas and a fine Hogmany to everyone. Chris Ridings from very warm Ryde, NSW, Australia. -----Original Message----- From: C Port [mailto:cport@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 6:24 To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Names Thanks to everyone on the list who helped me with Alexander variants. It seems it was very common. Merry Christmas to all Tina ______________________________

Just to show that it all goes to show: Mary Alexandra Geddes (1847-1919) Alexandra Munro (b 1878 MacDuff) Grace Alexandra C..... (living) all cases father's name was Alexander. and Alexandrina Geddes (b 1880 Rathven) Alexandrina Raeburn (b 1869 Keith) All above local. Although descended from Banffies, not born local: An Alexandra, who was known as Sandra (obvious!). An Alexandrina, who was known as Queenie (obvious when you think of it!). One of mine was formally registered as Sandy Ross, but a few months afterwards altered to Alexander Ross thus: "In the first column of Entry No15 in the Register Book of Births for the year 1884 for 'Sandy' substitute 'Alexander'. The above alteration is made on the authority of a Certificate in the form of Schedule (D) under the hand of the Rev'd Ebenezer MacLean, Minister of the Free Church, Fordyce. At Fordyce, 20th June 1884 Jas. Grant, Registrar" - Register of Corrected Entries. Do I detect stern disapproval at such a flippant forename?! And less than a year later, in 1885, the second-cousin of Sandy Ross was named from the start as Alexander Ebenezer MacLean Geddes - clearly the minister was having none of this Sandy nonsense with his parents (my gt-gt-gdparents)! He was later nicknamed Siccer Sandy - h'mm not so sure whether that was to his face or behind his back, depending on which meaning of siccer (old meany, or super shoemaker) you take. I fear it was the former. Bah! Humbug, the old scrooge! (An injection of seasonal Christmas grumpiness for those in UK who saw Grumpy Old Women last night on the telly...) And finally an infamous Portsoy Merchant Alexander Robertson (abt 1720 - 1790) was known to one and all as Mr Sandy, especially by his creditors who were chasing around most of Scotland trying to get hold of him. Merry Christmas to all Listers Howard-don't-call-me-Howie Geddes

Hi, Loved your e-mail, Howard! To add to the Alexanderina, later Alexandra, story: my lady's nickname was 'Dolly'! Gay

I don't think I've ever come across an Alexandra at all in Moray/Banff - neither in my genealogy nor when I was at school. Slainte Mhath, Margaret in a steamy Brisbane, Qld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Ridings" <tutu@atu.com.au> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:08 AM Subject: [MORAY] RE: Names > And that's just Alexander. > Wait until one starts of Alexandra......Alex, Sandra &c > > Happy Christmas and a fine Hogmany to everyone. > > Chris Ridings from very warm Ryde, NSW, Australia. > > -----Original Message----- > From: C Port [mailto:cport@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 6:24 > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Names > > Thanks to everyone on the list who helped me with Alexander variants. It > seems it was very common. > > Merry Christmas to all > > Tina > > ______________________________ > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can always visit the archives of this list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. The archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a new or established lister. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

I'd like to know as well, as I have several families to hunt out. Cheers Heather Auck, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julia Mudd" <j.m.mudd@dundee.ac.uk> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:17 PM Subject: 1841 Census Records > Dear All > > Does anyone know how the transcriptions of the 1841 Morayshire Census, > for FreeCen, is coming along or does anyone have access to them? > > Best Wishes > > Julia > Dundee, Scotland > > ______________________________

Barbara wrote: > I am hoping someone can help me identify the parents of Margaret > DONALD. She was probably born between 1820 and 1823 in St Andrews > Moray. This is all the information I have on her... > Margaret DONALD was married to Alexander ABEL (gg grandfather) on 31 > Dec 1830 in Kintore Aberdeen. Really? If she was born in 1823, that would mean she was just 7 when she married! Are you sure you aren't confusing information on two (or more) different people called Margaret Donald (which, I would have to say, is a fairly common combination of names)? > ... Margaret had died before the 1881 census was taken. So what does it say on her death certificate? That should give both her age (which you can check against the Census data to be sure you have the correct Margaret) and the names of her parents. You should be able to find that at scotlandspeople.gov.uk Gavin Bell

> In the 1841 Census of Aberdeenshire [draft transcription] there was only > one record of Alexandra but 19 of Alexandrina and 4 of Alexanderina. I > don't know what the modern spread is in N.E. Scotland but Alexandra is > almost certainly the most popular of these variants in England. This probably arises from naming a child after a male relative regardless of the sex of the child. A daughter would get the male name with '-ina' tacked on the end. Alexanderina isn't too bad, and Jamesina, Williamina, Robertina, Georgeina, Thomasina and Davidina are passable too. But I don't much like Johnina, and I am grateful not to have been named Gordonina after my father. I always feel rather sorry for girls (or rather women, as the name has fallen out of fashion) named Murdochina, though! Anne

Interesting point, Margaret. In the 1841 Census of Aberdeenshire [draft transcription] there was only one record of Alexandra but 19 of Alexandrina and 4 of Alexanderina. I don't know what the modern spread is in N.E. Scotland but Alexandra is almost certainly the most popular of these variants in England. Ray Hennessy See http://www.whatsinaname.net/index.html for pet names & so on for Alexandra, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Otto" <otts@hotkey.net.au> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [MORAY] RE: Names >I don't think I've ever come across an Alexandra at all in >Moray/Banff - > neither in my genealogy nor when I was at school. > > Slainte Mhath, > > Margaret in a steamy Brisbane, Qld > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Ridings" <tutu@atu.com.au> > To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:08 AM > Subject: [MORAY] RE: Names > > >> And that's just Alexander. >> Wait until one starts of Alexandra......Alex, Sandra &c >> >> Happy Christmas and a fine Hogmany to everyone. >> >> Chris Ridings from very warm Ryde, NSW, Australia. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C Port [mailto:cport@bigpond.net.au] >> Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 6:24 >> To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Names >> >> Thanks to everyone on the list who helped me with Alexander variants. >> It >> seems it was very common. >> >> Merry Christmas to all >> >> Tina >> >> ______________________________ >> >> >> ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== >> Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can always visit the > archives of this list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. > The > archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a new or > established > lister. >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in >> the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > MORAY OPR's. The OPR's for the Moray area are now starting to be > transcribed and volunteers are needed. Would anyone interested in > transcribing the OPR's for our area please contact me via my usual > email address or visit the Moray Rootsweb pages and contact me via the > mailing list Admin. > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and > the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

As a postscript to what Jan and Anne have written about Rayne: Older records (OPRs, KS records, Poor Law, 19th-cent civil BDM, Census) generally define locations in terms of the Parish in which they lay. Unfortunately, these parishes do not appear on modern maps (including the Ordnance Survey). So if you go looking for them on Multimap or Streetmap, you may well not find them. As it happens, the parish of Rayne does contain places called Old Rayne, New Rayne, North Rayne and Kirkton of Rayne, so you may find these. But many parishes do not contain any village or single location with the same name as the parish. To stand any chance of locating these, your first port of call (as I may have suggested before!) should be the GENUKI Gazetteer. (www.genuki.org.uk/contents and scroll down - also available via many individual County and Parish pages). This has been compiled specifically to aid genealogical research, and is based on placenames from old maps, old printed gazetteers, and Census data. Gavin Bell