Gosh,Maureen, that is wonderful information and detail...... Thank-you so much for your interest and effort. Catherine was the "forgotten" daughter,according to what l I have found out. No currently-living Urquhart relatives had heard of her.Even my late Father never mentioned his little sister(he would have been almost eleven years of age she died ) A brother of Catherine , wrote ,in his latter years :- "The third daughter Kathleen,the last in the family , died of pneumonia at an early age . Mither just did not have the time to see to her properly as Father still depended on her so much , spending much of her time out of doors. That was a tragedy I cannot forget as I was so often deputed to take care of the little one, " Your help has further advanced my on-going family history endeavours. Seasons Greetings Ray. > > From: "maureen dawson" <marymo48@hotmail.com> > Date: 2005/01/07 Fri AM 06:51:43 GMT+13:00 > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire > > > Catherine Urquhart died 31 Jan 1918 in Garrowood Grange , infant of Robert > and > Margaret Urquhart.buried Grange church yard. > > ----------------------------------------- > Notice of death in Banffshire Herald on 2 feb 1918 Local newspaper > > it reads. > > At Garrowood Grange on the 31st Jan 1918. Catherine Urquhart. Infant > Daughter of Robert and Margaret Urquhart. Funeral to be held today at 1pm > 2 feb 1918 at Grange Church Yard all friends welcome. > > ------------------------------- > > Lair of the grange church yard. Found this information at Elgin Library > Family History Section. > > She is buried in Lair No 19 there are 3 plots and she is in the first plot > and > the others are empty. > > There is no stone . > --------------------------------- > Reference No.: NM244953 > Surname: URQUHART > Forename(s): CATHERINE > Maiden Name: URQUHART > Occupation: > Date of Birth: > Place of Birth: > Father's Name: ROBERT URQUHART > Mother's Name: MARGARET > Biography: > > Marriage Details > > Spouses Name: > Date of Marriage: > Place of Marriage: > Married by: > Marriage Narrative: > > Death Details > > Date of Death: 31 JAN 1918 > Age: INFANT > Headstone Ref: > Place of Death: GRANGE > Parish Register: > Death Narrative: INTERRED AT GRANGE CHURCHYARD > > > > Newspaper Articles > > Newspaper Description Date Page/Column > BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 > BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 > > > > Miscellaneous Articles > > Date Description > ----------------- > > Hope this is ok, it is all I could find. > Regards. > Maureen Dawson. > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: raybot@xtra.co.nz > Date: 01/05/05 17:47:18 > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire > > My Grandparents , Robert and Margaret Urquhart , and Family , were living at > Garrowood , Grange , when their youngest child passed away ................. > ............. > > She was Catherine ( Kathleen ) Urquhart ,who died 31st January , 1918 ...... > .................................... > > Is there any chance of identifying the likely cemetery , also plot and > inscription details , I wonder ? > > Ray. > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > " Reply All " ........Please, please, please, when replying to a posted > message make sure that the reply is sent to the list and not just the sender > of the message. This is done by clicking " Reply All " Thank you ;-) > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Hi Ray [raybot] This confirms something I've been looking at. The reference books say Caitlin is the Irish form of Kathleen and Catherine is an anglicised version. Its good to know that Catherine was also known as Kathleen. I've added it to my database so the synonym may help others. You don't happen to know if there was any Irish connection, do you. I'd like to know. Ray Hennessy The Forenames website address is: www.whatsinaname.net ----- Original Message ----- From: <raybot@xtra.co.nz> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Re: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire > Gosh,Maureen, that is wonderful information and detail...... > Thank-you so much for your interest and effort. > > Catherine was the "forgotten" daughter,according to what l I have > found out. No currently-living Urquhart relatives had heard of > her.Even my late Father never mentioned his little sister(he would > have been almost eleven years of age she died ) > A brother of Catherine , wrote ,in his latter years :- > > "The third daughter Kathleen,the last in the family , died of > pneumonia at an early age . Mither just did not have the time to see > to her properly as Father still depended on her so much , spending > much of her time out of doors. > > That was a tragedy I cannot forget as I was so often deputed to take > care of the little one, " > > Your help has further advanced my on-going family history endeavours. > > Seasons Greetings > Ray. >> >> From: "maureen dawson" <marymo48@hotmail.com> >> Date: 2005/01/07 Fri AM 06:51:43 GMT+13:00 >> To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire >> >> >> Catherine Urquhart died 31 Jan 1918 in Garrowood Grange , infant of >> Robert >> and >> Margaret Urquhart.buried Grange church yard. >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Notice of death in Banffshire Herald on 2 feb 1918 Local newspaper >> >> it reads. >> >> At Garrowood Grange on the 31st Jan 1918. Catherine Urquhart. Infant >> Daughter of Robert and Margaret Urquhart. Funeral to be held today at >> 1pm >> 2 feb 1918 at Grange Church Yard all friends welcome. >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> Lair of the grange church yard. Found this information at Elgin >> Library >> Family History Section. >> >> She is buried in Lair No 19 there are 3 plots and she is in the first >> plot >> and >> the others are empty. >> >> There is no stone . >> --------------------------------- >> Reference No.: NM244953 >> Surname: URQUHART >> Forename(s): CATHERINE >> Maiden Name: URQUHART >> Occupation: >> Date of Birth: >> Place of Birth: >> Father's Name: ROBERT URQUHART >> Mother's Name: MARGARET >> Biography: >> >> Marriage Details >> >> Spouses Name: >> Date of Marriage: >> Place of Marriage: >> Married by: >> Marriage Narrative: >> >> Death Details >> >> Date of Death: 31 JAN 1918 >> Age: INFANT >> Headstone Ref: >> Place of Death: GRANGE >> Parish Register: >> Death Narrative: INTERRED AT GRANGE CHURCHYARD >> >> >> >> Newspaper Articles >> >> Newspaper Description Date Page/Column >> BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 >> BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 >> >> >> >> Miscellaneous Articles >> >> Date Description >> ----------------- >> >> Hope this is ok, it is all I could find. >> Regards. >> Maureen Dawson. >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: raybot@xtra.co.nz >> Date: 01/05/05 17:47:18 >> To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire >> >> My Grandparents , Robert and Margaret Urquhart , and Family , were >> living at >> Garrowood , Grange , when their youngest child passed away >> ................. >> ............. >> >> She was Catherine ( Kathleen ) Urquhart ,who died 31st January , 1918 >> ...... >> .................................... >> >> Is there any chance of identifying the likely cemetery , also plot >> and >> inscription details , I wonder ? >> >> Ray. >> >> >> ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== >> " Reply All " ........Please, please, please, when replying to a >> posted >> message make sure that the reply is sent to the list and not just the >> sender >> of the message. This is done by clicking " Reply All " Thank you ;-) >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in >> the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== >> If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or >> report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can >> be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in >> the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or > report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be > found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and > the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/BgC.2ACI/1254 Message Board Post: Travelling people - tinsmiths - tinkers - hawkers etc I am researching my own family tree, but I am finding this very difficult because my ancestors are all from a traditional travelling background. Mainly from the "golden triangle" North East of Scotland: Inverness - Aberdeen - Perth (although some came from Orkney, Shetland and the Lothian region also). Usual common names (and spelling variations), Stewart, Higgins, Robertson, Townsley, White, McDonald, Hutchison, McPhee, Newlands, Croll, McArthur, Jamieson, Williamson etc... I have a mountain of information to share - as I keep "hitting" the wrong names on the Scottish GRO Site. If they are not directly connected to me - are they connected to you? If interested, drop me a line, and we may be able to swap details.

Where were Catherine's parents buried, as there is no one else in the grave with her, and it is a 3 plot lair grave. Did they live in the Garrowood Hotel or in one of the houses there or croft. For some reason I just felt I had to go look for her. Silly isn't it. Happy New Year Maureen -------Original Message------- From: raybot@xtra.co.nz Date: 01/06/05 18:34:57 To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Re: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire Gosh,Maureen, that is wonderful information and detail...... Thank-you so much for your interest and effort. Catherine was the "forgotten" daughter,according to what l I have found out. No currently-living Urquhart relatives had heard of her.Even my late Father never mentioned his little sister(he would have been almost eleven years of age she died ) A brother of Catherine , wrote ,in his latter years :- "The third daughter Kathleen,the last in the family , died of pneumonia at an early age . Mither just did not have the time to see to her properly as Father still depended on her so much , spending much of her time out of doors. That was a tragedy I cannot forget as I was so often deputed to take care of the little one, " Your help has further advanced my on-going family history endeavours. Seasons Greetings Ray. > > From: "maureen dawson" <marymo48@hotmail.com> > Date: 2005/01/07 Fri AM 06:51:43 GMT+13:00 > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire > > > Catherine Urquhart died 31 Jan 1918 in Garrowood Grange , infant of Robert > and > Margaret Urquhart.buried Grange church yard. > > ----------------------------------------- > Notice of death in Banffshire Herald on 2 feb 1918 Local newspaper > > it reads. > > At Garrowood Grange on the 31st Jan 1918. Catherine Urquhart. Infant > Daughter of Robert and Margaret Urquhart. Funeral to be held today at 1pm > 2 feb 1918 at Grange Church Yard all friends welcome. > > ------------------------------- > > Lair of the grange church yard. Found this information at Elgin Library > Family History Section. > > She is buried in Lair No 19 there are 3 plots and she is in the first plot > and > the others are empty. > > There is no stone . > --------------------------------- > Reference No.: NM244953 > Surname: URQUHART > Forename(s): CATHERINE > Maiden Name: URQUHART > Occupation: > Date of Birth: > Place of Birth: > Father's Name: ROBERT URQUHART > Mother's Name: MARGARET > Biography: > > Marriage Details > > Spouses Name: > Date of Marriage: > Place of Marriage: > Married by: > Marriage Narrative: > > Death Details > > Date of Death: 31 JAN 1918 > Age: INFANT > Headstone Ref: > Place of Death: GRANGE > Parish Register: > Death Narrative: INTERRED AT GRANGE CHURCHYARD > > > > Newspaper Articles > > Newspaper Description Date Page/Column > BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 > BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 > > > > Miscellaneous Articles > > Date Description > ----------------- > > Hope this is ok, it is all I could find. > Regards. > Maureen Dawson. > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: raybot@xtra.co.nz > Date: 01/05/05 17:47:18 > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire > > My Grandparents , Robert and Margaret Urquhart , and Family , were living at > Garrowood , Grange , when their youngest child passed away ............... > ............. > > She was Catherine ( Kathleen ) Urquhart ,who died 31st January , 1918 .... > .................................... > > Is there any chance of identifying the likely cemetery , also plot and > inscription details , I wonder ? > > Ray. > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > " Reply All " ........Please, please, please, when replying to a posted > message make sure that the reply is sent to the list and not just the sender > of the message. This is done by clicking " Reply All " Thank you ;-) > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Hello List. Thank you to Ann and Gavin Bell for your words of wisdom on the marriage or not; illigit dau not registered etc. You folk really are the cat's whiskers on genealogy. Trying to find James Wiseman after the birth of his dau 1849, here is another thought(s). James was retired from the Army on Medical grounds. He was called out on guard duty in Gibraltar late one night and tripped and fell down near his bed. He was unable to walk, spent 3 months in Hospital with treatment having no effect, and bone disease set in on his right ankle, (prob cancer of some sorts). On leaving the Army the Dr. said amputation would be necessary before to long. That was in 1843, Ann was born in 1849. Because James was in the Army in 1838, he doesn't appear in the 1841 Cen. If James is the person I think he is, the son of Alexander WISEMAN and Ann Russell bn/bt 1809 at Lossiemouth.His Army papers said he was born 1812 Lossiemouth. On the death of his father Alexr in 1855 a list of children was given and one dau Anne and one son James were deceased prior to Alexr's death. But this is the 64,000 dollar question -- could he have died between 1850 and 1855 . Some family members are buried in Kinneddar Cemetery which include 2 James WISEMANS. How would one get Memorial Inscriptions for that one or other Cems. I have no idea of Jane Innes's birth year, or birth place although at the time when she met the church officers, she said she was presently of Lossiemouth. family gossip said that Ann once in NZ talked off her step-siblings which makes that right.. Ann came out to NZ alone as far as the passenger list was concerned. She married a James RHIND from Cummingston/Duffus area and it is thought the two families knew one another in prior generations. I have down loaded Birth, Marriages and Deaths for James Wiseman and Jane Innes from Scotlands people, but still can't match up any of the data to fit these two above. Is the 1861 Census on CD, if so any one like to take up the challenge of perusing same for James/Jane and Ann . Pearl M. New Zealand.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Anderson, Bews,St.Clair(Sinclair),Robb,Traill Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/BgC.2ACI/157.942.1.1.1.3.1.1 Message Board Post: Hello Charles, I have been looking for Robert(John) Anderson b. in Elgin circa 1800 and m. Jessie Robb in Elgin 3/1/1824 they had 1 child that I know of, Jessie b. circa 1834 at Elgin d. 29/2/1907 at Glasgow, m.William Traill Bews (my GGF) 8/2/1852 at Edinburgh. Robert Anderson was a Mason by trade in Elgin but I cannot find any info on Robert or Jessie Robb other than their marriage. The strange thing is he is listed on Jessie Robb's death certificate as John not Robert. regards, Paul

Catherine Urquhart died 31 Jan 1918 in Garrowood Grange , infant of Robert and Margaret Urquhart.buried Grange church yard. ----------------------------------------- Notice of death in Banffshire Herald on 2 feb 1918 Local newspaper it reads. At Garrowood Grange on the 31st Jan 1918. Catherine Urquhart. Infant Daughter of Robert and Margaret Urquhart. Funeral to be held today at 1pm 2 feb 1918 at Grange Church Yard all friends welcome. ------------------------------- Lair of the grange church yard. Found this information at Elgin Library Family History Section. She is buried in Lair No 19 there are 3 plots and she is in the first plot and the others are empty. There is no stone . --------------------------------- Reference No.: NM244953 Surname: URQUHART Forename(s): CATHERINE Maiden Name: URQUHART Occupation: Date of Birth: Place of Birth: Father's Name: ROBERT URQUHART Mother's Name: MARGARET Biography: Marriage Details Spouses Name: Date of Marriage: Place of Marriage: Married by: Marriage Narrative: Death Details Date of Death: 31 JAN 1918 Age: INFANT Headstone Ref: Place of Death: GRANGE Parish Register: Death Narrative: INTERRED AT GRANGE CHURCHYARD Newspaper Articles Newspaper Description Date Page/Column BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 BH death 02/02/1918 1/1 Miscellaneous Articles Date Description ----------------- Hope this is ok, it is all I could find. Regards. Maureen Dawson. -------Original Message------- From: raybot@xtra.co.nz Date: 01/05/05 17:47:18 To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MORAY] Grange , Banffshire My Grandparents , Robert and Margaret Urquhart , and Family , were living at Garrowood , Grange , when their youngest child passed away ................. ............. She was Catherine ( Kathleen ) Urquhart ,who died 31st January , 1918 ...... .................................... Is there any chance of identifying the likely cemetery , also plot and inscription details , I wonder ? Ray. ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== " Reply All " ........Please, please, please, when replying to a posted message make sure that the reply is sent to the list and not just the sender of the message. This is done by clicking " Reply All " Thank you ;-) ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Log on to: http://www.abdn.net/genuki/BAN/whatsnew.html for news of the latest updates to the GENUKI Banffshire pages. Gavin Bell

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/BgC.2ACI/1253 Message Board Post: Looking for info on ancestors. James McLeod b.3-2-1809 christened 3-7-1809 Elgin,Moray, Scotland.Parents James McLeod and Margaret Strachan. Imagrated to canada 1829. May have had bothers George and David.Married Sarah Fisher 7-16-1839 Canada. Thank you Linn McLeod Holt

My Grandparents , Robert and Margaret Urquhart , and Family , were living at Garrowood , Grange , when their youngest child passed away ................................ She was Catherine ( Kathleen ) Urquhart ,who died 31st January , 1918 ............................................ Is there any chance of identifying the likely cemetery , also plot and inscription details , I wonder ? Ray.

Ray, Can you add anything to the information below on the family of Wiliam TENNANT. 1. William Tennant (b.20 Mar 1813-Dyke,Moray,Scotland;d.3 Dec 1883-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) sp: Margaret Watt (b.30 Apr 1820-Boharm,Moray,Scotland;m.13 Dec 1838;d.1 May 1910-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 2. Jean Tennant (b.17 May 1840-Boharm,Moray,Scotland) sp: Alexander Rattrie (c.8 Oct 1827-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;m.28 Dec 1860) 3. William Rattrie (b.21 May 1861-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. James Rattrie (b.24 Feb 1863-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. Alexander Rattrie (b.11 Jan 1865-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;d.Bef 1873) 3. John Rattrie (b.15 Jan 1867-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. Margaret Rattrie (b.18 Jun 1869-Glenrinnes,Banff,Scotland) 3. Jane Ann Rattrie (b.3 May 1871-Glenrinnes,Banff,Scotland) 3. Alexander Rattrie (b.9 Mar 1873-Grange,Banff,Scotland) 2. James Tennant (b.13 Dec 1845-Grange,Banff,Scotland;d.3 Aug 1919-Dufftown,Banff,Scotland) 2. Amelia Tennant (b.2 Jun 1848-Grange,Banff,Scotland) sp: James Strathdee (b.12 Feb 1861-Mortlach,Banff,Scotland;m.10 Dec 1886) 2. Ann Tennant (b.20 Jun 1850-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;d.17 Dec 1920-Grange,Banff,Scotland) sp: John Reid (b.Abt 1844-Grange,Banff,Scotland;m.18 Dec 1869;d.4 Jan 1920-Grange,Banff,Scotland) 3. William Reid (b.24 Sep 1870-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. John Reid (b.2 Aug 1872-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. Margaret Ann Reid (b.Abt 1875-Ordiquhill,Banff,Scotland) 3. Isabella Emily Reid (b.19 Mar 1877-Rothiemay,Banff,Scotland;d.17 Jun 1896) 3. Mary Jane Reid (b.3 Mar 1882-Rothiemay,Banff,Scotland) sp: Alexander Stronach (b.Abt 1879;m.31 Jan 1905) 3. James McConnachie Reid (b.18 Aug 1884-Greenfold,Rothiemay,Banff,Scotland) sp: Mary Ann McHattie (m.27 Jul 1910) 3. Hellen Reid (b.Abt 1887-Rothiemay,Banff,Scotland) 3. George Reid (b.Abt 1891-Inverkeithny,Banff,Scotland) 2. William Tennant (b.18 Jun 1852-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;d.20 Feb 1934-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) sp: Elizabeth Murray (b.19 Sep 1849-Inveravon,Banff,Scotland;m.17 Jun 1884;d.24 May 1909-Aberdeen,Aberdeen,Scotland) 3. John Tennant (b.26 Nov 1881-Forgue,Aberdeen,Scotland;d.23 Mar 1973-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) sp: Elizabeth Green Shand (b.Abt 1884;m.8 Jun 1906;d.8 Apr 1966-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. Margaret Watt Tennant (b.27 Aug 1885-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;d.Sep 1979-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) sp: John Cameron (b.Abt 1886-Scotland;m.Not married) sp: Alexander Dawson (b.1885-Glenrinnes,Banff,Scotland;m.13 Dec 1912;d.1956-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. Alexander Murray Tennant (b.5 Sep 1889-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 2. John Tennant (b.8 Jun 1854-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;d.21 Jan 1899-Cranbrook,British Columbia,Canada) 2. Margaret Janet Tennant (b.25 Sep 1856-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland;d.18 Jun 1938-Elgin,Moray,Scotland) sp: Peter Batchen (b.Abt 1846-Boharm,Moray,Scotland;m.1876;d.1911-Birnie,Moray,Scotland) 3. Maggie Watt Batchen (b.Abt 1877-Aberlour,Banff,Scotland) 3. Elizabeth Emily Batchen (b.16 Oct 1879-Rothes,Moray,Scotland;d.1935-Elgin,Moray,Scotland) 3. Jane Ann Batchen (b.Abt 1888-Elgin,Moray,Scotland;d.1983-Elgin,Moray,Scotland) 3. Peter Batchen (b.4 Jul 1896-Knockando,Moray,Scotland) -- Jo-Ann Croft

Gavin, Thanks for the information, as you know I'm stuck with James and his parents and I'm now at the stage of trying anything, no matter how stupid it seems. Hoping that one day someone will answer one of my emails with James birth date etc. I live in hope. Thanks, Barbara -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg//BgC.2ACI/1252.1 Message Board Post: Further to my last message, I have now established that, at the time of the birth if Margaret and Peter in 1825, Alexander was shown as being a "subtenant in Little Darkland". Does this ring any bells with anyone? Thanks.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/BgC.2ACI/1140.1.2.1 Message Board Post: Hi Charles, I have not been able to find any firm information on my Margaret Anderson other than her marriage to Alexander Spence on 24/6/1820 and daughter Barbara born 28/1/1823 although I must confess that I have been concentrating my attention on the male line up to now. Thanks for your replies though.

Hello again Gay, I am doing a complete history of the people of Aberlour, on the database is every record available from 1704 to 2004 these include Births marriages deaths all census 1841 - 1901 all Mi's upto 2004 and all poor law records. I try to include everyones details onto my family tree so that if anyone else researching the same family gets in touch with me for help i can also put them in touch with their own cousins etc. so if you would like to be added to the tree please send any relevant information. Anyway the information i have on the family of William Stuart and Janet Richardson is as follows. Elspet Stuart born March 3, 1832 in Derrybeg married William McLean in Aberlour on July 17, 1880 Elspet died in Aberlour on July 28, 1922 no more information available at this time. Isabel Stuart born March 2, 1834 in Derrybeg died in Aberlour on November 30, 1904 she had one child that i know off namely Margaret Macadam born in Rhynie Aberdeenshire in 1856 no more information available at this time. Margaret Stuart born January 24, 1836 in Derrybeg married Alexander Reid in Aberlour on August 18, 1859 and had 4 children that i know Off namely Alexander born c. 1863 in Kildrummy Aberdeenshire. Margaret born c. 1867 in Rhynie, Aberdeenshire. Barbara born c. 1879 in Leslie, Aberdeenshire. and James born c. 1873 in Premnay Aberdeenshire. No more information available at this time. James Stuart born February 11, 1838 in Derrybeg married Jane McBeath in Llhanbryde on June 27, 1868 and died on June 3, 1930 in Aberlour.They had 3 children that i know about namely William born June 5, 1870 in Aberlour, James born May 4, 1872 in Aberlour and Robert John born October 7, 1881 i Easter Derrybeg and died in Forres, Moray in 1943. Janet Stuart born September 12, 1841 in Derrybeg married James McDonald in Aberlour on January 21, 1872 and died June 17, 1873 in Derrybeg. That is all the information i have on this family at the moment hope this is of some help to you in your research. Regards ray

hello List, I found the recent discussion on Illigitmate chn and irregular marriages very interesting as I have quite a problem with an 1849 'accident' in my family. Will try and be brief with the details. WISEMAN is my research name in Morayshire. for a long time I was looking for birth details of an Ann Wiseman ( I know she existed because she came out to NZ to marry another Morayshire -ite, of the Rhind Family.) We know she was born about 1849/50, he fathers name supposedly James Wiseman, Mother's name not mentioned on her Death Cert. Knowing the churches view on illigitmate chn in the era of 1850c I had a researcher read the Kirk Session minutes for 1849-50. The researcher found under 1 Sept 1850 a Jane Innes residing in Lossiemouth appeared before the church Meeting and confessed that she had been guilty of fornication and had given birth to a female child on 21 April 1849 the father of which she stated was James WISEMAN, late of the First Scots Royals. She also handed in a document purporting to be an acknowledgement on his part as follows. "I, James Wiseman late of the Regiment of Foot in Scots Royals considering that on the 21 April 1849, Jane Innes now or lately residing in Lossiemouth, Parish of Draine Co. Elgin, brought forth a female child begat by me on her in fornication and that I consider, according to the present law of Scotland, a contract of marriage is equal to the solemnisation of the same in the usual way. And we do by these presents to declare ourselves married people witness our handwriting or mark 13July 1849 " (Signed) James Wiseman, Jane Innes (her x mark). The Session considering that this is a case of trilapse in fornication on the part of said Jane Innes instruct their clerk to transmit extracts to the next meeting of presbytery that their advice may be obtained and the said Jane Innes summoned to attend said meeting of Presbytery to be held in Elgin on Wednesday 11 current. {I had the Elgin minutes searched but no record was found of further info on Jane Innes but I had found my Ann WISEMAN} Question 1. second paragraph, line 8 (According to present law of Scotland etc, does this mean they were living as man and wife but not churched as Ann's birth/bapt has never been recorded.) Question 2. Trilapse (not in my dictionary). Question 3. There is no record of Jane, James or Anne in Morayshire in the 1851 Census, could they have been asked to leave the County for their mis-demeanour. I obtained James Wisemans Army papers from Archives he was retired from the Army in 1843, medically unfit. Any suggestions -- how can I find James W. Jane I. and or Ann, can't climb over, and can't go through this brick wall. Ann by the way arrived in NZ in 1871, married the following year. Please -- any suggestions would be invaluable if you can point me where to go next. Pearl M. New Zealand.

I have been looking for my James Farquharson under the surname Farquharson but lately I'm wondering if his mother had him before marrying. His parents are on his marriage certificate as James Farquharson and Jane Grant. Could James have been illegitimate, then been given the name Farquharson when his mother married/ took up with James Farquharson?? I cant find a marriage for James and Jane or birth for James around 1840-42. Have tried all parts of Scotland, his marriage and death certificates have Mortlach, Banffshire as place of birth. If he was "adopted" would it have to be recorded somewhere and if so where? James is my brick wall, I have his family in NZ from 1882 when he married but before that nothing. I hope someone on this list may have information on James. I Will be posting to Banffshire site as well, I apologise if you get this message twice, but Moray has helped me before. Thanks, Barbara -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

Barbara wrote: > I have been looking for my James Farquharson under the surname > Farquharson but lately I'm wondering if his mother had him before > marrying. His parents are on his marriage certificate as James > Farquharson and Jane Grant. Could James have been illegitimate, then > been given the name Farquharson when his mother married/ took up with > James Farquharson?? It's possible - but it doesn't necessarily follow from the data you have. It was normal practice for a married woman to continue using her maiden surname. Sometimes she might call herself "Jane Grant or Farquharson", but the fact that she appears on her son's marriage certificate under her maiden name does not necessarily mean that she was unmarried. > I cant find a marriage for James and Jane or birth for James around > 1840-42. Have tried all parts of Scotland, his marriage and death > certificates have Mortlach, Banffshire as place of birth. Again, that does not necessarily mean they weren't married. Many marriages and baptisms simply did not get recorded. Have you any idea whare in Mortlach they might have lived? The "New Statistical Account" (dated 1836) states that there was a "mission chapel" in Glenrinnes. In theory, any marriage or baptism occurring there should have been recorded in the Mortlach registers, but I wouldn't assume that always happened. The other thing that the writer of the "Account" reports is that, at that date, there was a Catholic chapel with a congregation of around 170. Catholics were supposed to register their baptisms and marriages with the Kirk, but again, that often did not happen > If he was "adopted" would it have to be recorded somewhere No. I would be inclined to have a look (or get someone to have a look on your behalf) in the Kirk Session records. These are very variable, but if your man was illegitimate, then the errant parents may have been hauled over the coals. Gavin Bell

Pearl wrote: > ... > Jane Innes residing in Lossiemouth appeared before the church Meeting > and confessed that she had been guilty of fornication and had given > birth to a female child on 21 April 1849 the father of which she > stated was James WISEMAN, late of the First Scots Royals. She also > handed in a document purporting to be an acknowledgement on his part > as follows. "I, James Wiseman late of the Regiment of Foot in Scots > Royals considering that on the 21 April 1849, Jane Innes now or lately > residing in Lossiemouth, Parish of Draine Co. Elgin, brought forth a > female child begat by me on her in fornication and that I consider, > according to the present law of Scotland, a contract of marriage is > equal to the solemnisation of the same in the usual way. And we do by > these presents to declare ourselves married people witness our > handwriting or mark 13July 1849 " (Signed) James Wiseman, Jane Innes > (her x mark). > The Session considering that this is a case of trilapse in fornication > on the part of said Jane Innes instruct their clerk to transmit > extracts to the next meeting of presbytery that their advice may be > obtained and the said Jane Innes summoned to attend said meeting of > Presbytery to be held in Elgin on Wednesday 11 current. {I had the > Elgin minutes searched but no record was found of further info on Jane > Innes but I had found my Ann WISEMAN} What an intersting one! Illustrates the value of checking the Kirk Session records. > Question 1. second paragraph, line 8 (According to present law of > Scotland etc, does this mean they were living as man and wife but not > churched as Ann's birth/bapt has never been recorded.) Not necessarily. I think the guilty couple had got things half right, but were confused between the different forms of Irregular Marriage. There were three of these: 1 "Promise 'subsequente copula'" (= a promise, followed by copulation). If a man promised marriage, and on that basis the woman let him have his wicked way with her, then Scots Law (although not the Kirk!) would deem them married. It is possible that this might have applied in this instance. 2 "Marriage by Declaration". Simply stating (preferably, but oddly not necessarily) before witnesses that you were married to each other likewise constituted a marriage valid in the eyes of the Law (but again, not recognised by the Kirk). The couple's affidavit would, I think, qualify under this form of marriage. 3 "Marriage by Habit and Repute". Of the 3, this is the one form which could not apply to your errant ancestors. It could only take effect in the case of a couple who had lived together for a considerable period of time - the duration of a pregnancy would hardly suffice. > Question 2. Trilapse (not in my dictionary). The Kirk Sessions made a hobby of Fornication - or at least, of defining various different forms of it. The first offence was just Fornication. A repeat would be Relapse in Fornication. After that came Trilapse. > Question 3. There is no record of Jane, James or Anne in Morayshire in > the 1851 Census, could they have been asked to leave the County for > their mis-demeanour. Most unlikely, at this date. In earlier times, sinners could be barred from the Kirk, and possibly from the parish, but by the mid-19th century, the powers of the Kirk were waning, and they certainly would not have had the power to do such a thing. On the other hand, the couple may have been so fed up with their treatment that they upped and left just to get away from the Holy Willies. Gavin Bell

> Knowing the churches view on illigitmate chn in the > era of 1850c I > had a researcher read the Kirk Session minutes for > 1849-50. The > researcher found under 1 Sept 1850 a Jane Innes > residing in > Lossiemouth appeared before the church Meeting and > confessed that she > had been guilty of fornication and had given birth > to a female child > on 21 April 1849 the father of which she stated was > James WISEMAN, > late of the First Scots Royals. She also handed in > a document > purporting to be an acknowledgement on his part as > follows. "I, James > Wiseman late of the Regiment of Foot in Scots Royals > considering that > on the 21 April 1849, Jane Innes now or lately > residing in > Lossiemouth, Parish of Draine Co. Elgin, brought > forth a female > child begat by me on her in fornication and that I > consider, > according to the present law of Scotland, a contract > of marriage is > equal to the solemnisation of the same in the usual > way. And we do > by these presents to declare ourselves married > people witness our > handwriting or mark 13July 1849 " (Signed) James > Wiseman, Jane Innes > (her x mark). > > The Session considering that this is a case of > trilapse in > fornication on the part of said Jane Innes instruct > their clerk to > transmit extracts to the next meeting of presbytery > that their advice > may be obtained and the said Jane Innes summoned to > attend said > meeting of Presbytery to be held in Elgin on > Wednesday 11 current. > {I had the Elgin minutes searched but no record was > found of further > info on Jane Innes but I had found my Ann WISEMAN} > > Question 1. second paragraph, line 8 (According to > present law of > Scotland etc, does this mean they were living as man > and wife but not > churched as Ann's birth/bapt has never been > recorded.) I looks to me as if they considered themselves to be husband and wife. If so, I imagine that they were living together, but there is really np way of telling this for certain > Question 2. Trilapse (not in my dictionary). It means that she had been found guilty of the same sin twice before - this was the third time she was up before the Kirk Session for fornication and/or an illegitimate pregnancy. So there could be a couple of older illegtimate children. > Question 3. There is no record of Jane, James or > Anne in Morayshire > in the 1851 Census, could they have been asked to > leave the County > for their mis-demeanour. No. > I obtained James Wisemans Army papers from Archives > he was retired > from the Army in 1843, medically unfit. Any > suggestions -- how can I > find James W. Jane I. and or Ann, can't climb over, > and can't go > through this brick wall. Ann by the way arrived in > NZ in 1871, > married the following year. > Please -- any suggestions would be invaluable if > you can point me > where to go next? Did Ann arrive in NZ alone or with her parents? If her parents did not emigrate, you could try Scotland's People for a death of Jane/Jean Innes or Wiseman - she should be indexed under both her maiden and her married name. This will tell you whether or not James had died before her. You can then go for James' death certificate. HTH Anne