> Is the Cromdale Church in Grantown as I previously thought, or in > an area > called Cromdale? (discussion some time back) > Also, where will I find the Inverallen Church? > AND is there a Church called the Grantown Church? Cromdale Kirk is indeed in the Cromdale part of Cromdale Inverallan and Advie. It is about a mile from the village of Cromdale, right beside the bridge over the Spey. Inverallan Kirk (ruins of) is about a mile south of Grantown, on the right bank of the Spey. Grantown Kirk is in Mossie Road, Grantown, about a block north-west of the Square. However it was opened as recently as 1886, so would not have been used by any ancestors earlier than that (nothing like stating the obvious!) Advie Old Parish Kirk is apparently by the former railway line about a mile north of Mains of Advie. The present Advie Kirk is about a mile west of Mains of Advie, where the road forks, the main road going on to Ballindalloch/Aberlour/Elgin and the minor road to Advie Bridge. I found all these by going to www.rcahms.gov.uk and using the CANMORE system. There is lots more information about all of these sites there, and about churches of other denominations in the same area. If you want to see where they all are on the map, go to www.streetmap.co.uk and input the grid references listed below, selecting 'Landranger'. You will need to use the re-size option at bottom left once the map comes up - click on the third 'house' symbol from left to get the best scale for the job. Cromdale Kirk NJ066289 Inverallan Kirk NJ126260 Grantown Kirk NJ031280 Advie Old Kirk NJ141352 Advie Kirk NJ126342 When you get here, I recommend you to buy either Landranger map sheets 28 and 36, or Explorer sheets 418 and 419. They cost about GBP6 each. The Explorer is more detailed but you need more of them to cover a given area. HTH Anne

Is there eanyone on this site that has been doing research on the Falconer line, especially someone who resides in Moray? I have just received word from someone who did a look-up for me in Paul Gifford's book-Falconer of Halkerton and evidently the line I descend from is not mentioned in his book. I have been collecting data from the Old Parish Registries and currently have about 900 plus entries of Falconers for Dyke, Forres, Elgin, Alves, New Spynie and still doing entries. I have also been cross referencing the surnames of Brander, James, McCulloch and Tyre but I have met a brick wall since I do not have a mother's name mentioned in one fo the entries and with a common surname of Falconer and a given name of Alexander, there are lots. Here is the information I have currently: Alexander Falconer born (possibly 10 Nov 1765 in Dyke, Moray, Scotland).. Married Catherine (Katherine) Brander on 07/26/1788 in Elgin, Moray, Scotland. Catherine (Katherine) Brander was christened 2/16/1764. Catherine (Katherine) was the daughter of James Brander and Mary James.of Elgin, Moray. (If this Alexander was is the correct one born 10 Nov. 1765, his father is only listed who is also an Alexander).Thsi is my brick wall. Children born to Alexander and Catherine Katherine) Brander Falconer: Isabella - born 14 May 1789,Christened May 16, 1789 New Spynie, married John McCulloch of Dyke, 24 Jan 1809. (I am descended from her). John- born 26 April 1791 Christened April 28, 1791 New Spynie Mary- born 01 Oct 1793 Christened Oct. 05, 1793 New Spynie James Falconer, born 12 January 1796 and christened in Rafford Parish on January 19, 1796. (His mother's surname is listed incorrtectly as Katherine Bremner but we know he is part of this line based on copies of old letters that were sent in the 1840-1860s to family members in the USA) In 1840 he was a professor at the Royal Academy in Inverness. He had four sons: Alexander: a preacher Charles: had a business in London but both were tutors at Kings College in Aberdeen in 1840. James: professor of philosophy and mathematics in Bemuda John: civil engineer Jean-born 12 Jan 1796 Christened Jul. 16. 1800 Dyke married to Alexander White Margeret- born 07 April 1803 Christened April 14, 1803 Dyke Alexander-born 11 Dec 1806 Christened December 19, 1806 Dyke Thank you, Susan McClure <(smcclure@cox.net>, San Diego, California I do have additional information and as time permits I have also b4een trying to decipher the microfilm of the Old Parish Register of Dyke. But of there is anyone who has additional information that they could share or could recommend a professional researcher that is familiar with the Falconer line I would appreciate it very much. .

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/BgC.2ACI/1280.1 Message Board Post: Hi Ian, Just a wee bit here…. From the Canmore database – free, but must register: http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/index.html NMRS Number NMRS Name Class Council Scheduled/Listed Collection Summary NJ05NE 43 Moss-Side Alternative(s):Blervie Estate Farming And Fishing; Residential Moray Manuscripts: 1 NJ16SE 40 Mosstowie, Railway Cottages Alternative(s):Burnside Farm Residential Moray NJ24SE 53 Moss Of Bourach Alternative(s):Moss-Side Croft Enclosure Moray Manuscripts: 1 NJ26SE 99 Innesmill Alternative(s):Urquhart Parish Church; Moss-Side Barrows: Square (Possible); Enclosures; Ring-Ditches (Possible); Cropmarks Moray Manuscripts: 1 NJ55SW 21 Moss-Side Farmstead Moray ** http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/townfirst1944.html ** Regards, Larry

> Well the good news is > > Inveravon > Births 1630- 1854 > Marriages 1630 - 1854 > Deaths 1636-1783 > and 1844 - 1854 > > OPRs held in Ediburgh and available worldwide on > microfilm. For example in my local library, where I have read through the relevant sections and failed to find what William is looking for :-( Anne

Well the good news is Inveravon Births 1630- 1854 Marriages 1630 - 1854 Deaths 1636-1783 and 1844 - 1854 OPRs held in Ediburgh and available worldwide on microfilm. Karen Donald --- William Innes <w.innes@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Thank you for all your responses. It has been > brought to my attention that I > should have been more specific. So here goes: > > I am actually trying to find the birth for William > Innes b: about 1778 in > Inveravon. > > The following information comes from his death > certificate in 1861. It > states that he died in 1861 at the age of 83 at > Craighead Farm in Glenlivet, > Banff. If correct, that would make his date of birth > as 1778. His father, > also from Inveravon, was named William Innes but the > mother was unknown. > Regrettably, the extract does not show where he is > buried. > > We have been able to confirm that William Innes > married Janet Cameron in > 1814 and that they had four (4) children. Ann 1815, > Margaret1818, John1820 > and William1822. My line is from William. No trace > on John 1820 as yet. > > It also has been proven and confirmed that William > 1778 was Protestant and > Janet was RC. > > To try and find William’s parents and concentrating > on the year 1778 only I > have been able to find a birth for that year but > with parents being James > Innes and Beatrix Mason. Who knows!!!!! By process > of elimination I will > find. > > James and Beatrice lived in Mortlach and it shows > Willm. Innes c: Jan 1778. > This is the entry which I feel is false. At the IGI > enter William Innes then > exact year 1778, Scotland and then Banff. I decided > to do Mortlach first > because William 1778 grandchildren lived there. > > William in Montreal > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your > email address, or report anything to the admin of > the list - all this information can be found at > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so > much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > >

> I am actually trying to find the birth for William Innes b: about 1778 > > in Inveravon. Ah, I see. You may eventually have to accept that the record of William's birth and/or baptism has simply not survived. There are often gaps in the parish registers, especially before 1800, because either the information was never written down, or because the record was lost or destroyed. > Regrettably, the extract does not show where he is buried. The place of burial is shown only on death certificates from 1855 to 1859. > To try and find William’s parents and concentrating on the year 1778 only > I have been able to find a birth for that year but with parents being > James Innes and Beatrix Mason. Highly unlikely to be the right one, for several reasons (1) wrong parish (2) wrong father's name (3) there is no sign of a Beatrix among your William's descendants. There are at least two William Inneses of the right sort of age in the 1841 census in Mortlach, so you could try eliminating them by using the SP death records. Anne

Thank you for all your responses. It has been brought to my attention that I should have been more specific. So here goes: I am actually trying to find the birth for William Innes b: about 1778 in Inveravon. The following information comes from his death certificate in 1861. It states that he died in 1861 at the age of 83 at Craighead Farm in Glenlivet, Banff. If correct, that would make his date of birth as 1778. His father, also from Inveravon, was named William Innes but the mother was unknown. Regrettably, the extract does not show where he is buried. We have been able to confirm that William Innes married Janet Cameron in 1814 and that they had four (4) children. Ann 1815, Margaret1818, John1820 and William1822. My line is from William. No trace on John 1820 as yet. It also has been proven and confirmed that William 1778 was Protestant and Janet was RC. To try and find William’s parents and concentrating on the year 1778 only I have been able to find a birth for that year but with parents being James Innes and Beatrix Mason. Who knows!!!!! By process of elimination I will find. James and Beatrice lived in Mortlach and it shows Willm. Innes c: Jan 1778. This is the entry which I feel is false. At the IGI enter William Innes then exact year 1778, Scotland and then Banff. I decided to do Mortlach first because William 1778 grandchildren lived there. William in Montreal

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/BgC.2ACI/867.1.1.2.1 Message Board Post: Please forgive me for not responding sooner. I've sent your message along to Annie Lambert Stewart, she may know your family. Peigi

> Here is what my problem is: On a few occasions, while looking at the IGI, > I have come across inscriptions which gives me a name but for the date it > only gives me the year. William, do be precise. What names/dates/parishes are you talking about? The IGI contains two kinds of records. There are 'extracted' records which are taken from original sources and (barring the odd misspelling or dodgy transcription) are generally reliable. Then there are 'submitted' entries, which cover a multitude of sins, from carefully researched and accurate information to pure fantasy. If your missing person's record is 'submitted' and the others are 'extracted' then you need to follow up the reference to get the original source document, which is likely to be totally different from the rest. You also need some other evidence to prove the existence of the person whose record is 'submitted'. Best wishes Anne

About missing births in families...there could be several reasons. I have to presume you are working on births pre-1855? Dates weren't given, so I'll go on that assumption, or there would be a Registration for the birth of the tyke in question. Surname spelling sometimes poses a barrier for researching. The IGI relied on church members for the work, if they couldn't read the handwriting on the films provided, then your family member was suddenly removed from the rest of their siblings. Sometimes there was a FEE involved for registering the kiddies. Occasionally families simply refused to pay it, but it was lifted later and it was forgotten that little Amadeus wasn't registered back when. Try the Batch method of searching, it will show you ALL the names they found in a particular batch, still the IGI, but a totally different search method which sometimes works wonders. Hugh Wallis did the work on this - here is the searchpage for Scottish shires, you have to search each parish for your family, but it seems to be known which parish it was : http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryScotland.htm#PageTitle/ Highly unlikely someone fudged the parish records for a birth thought not to be the husband's - especially if the family had births before and after that date. Regardless of who the genetic father was.....the child was the legal responsibility of the lass's husband. When doing my own research, I have to keep in mind the phrase " Mama's baby....Papa's maybe". Meaning if I have gotten my line back to the 16th century, chances are very high for some of the kiddies found along the way to not have been "Papa's". The mother carried the stigma of a rape if she spoke up after an assault [if her husband allowed her to]. Women learned to keep their mouths shut and the family intact. Am reminded of a recent family group in the US who did extensive/expensive DNA studies. It was found that one member of the group who'd spent many years of his life working on the family tree had DNA that didn't match his siblings at all, now he wonders about an adoption and evidently is working through depression. We all should know his tale isn't an extremely rare exception and more of us would find similar results with all sorts of legal pitfalls if our extended families were similarly investigated. Scary but intrigueing nonetheless. I'm sure there were horsethieves in my line and probably worse. Nothing I can do about it now. Censuses aren't mentioned in the query.....they should show snapshots of the family along the way. Good luck in all your researching ! May you find those you seek...and a few more for the rest of us. Meg Greenwood / Oklahoma USA

This is William. I find myself getting very paranoid or is it due to the fact that it is just frustration. Here is what my problem is: On a few occasions, while looking at the IGI, I have come across inscriptions which gives me a name but for the date it only gives me the year. To be more specific, in this instance, I tried to find how many siblings there were in one specific family and it would give me all the names including the complete birth dates except one would only show the year of birth. So, at this point, I order the birth extracts for the whole family and when I get them, there is one missing. Guess which one!!! I firmly believe that this inscription was put in there to simply hide the fact that someone had an illicit affair and also had the power to make changes so that this birth was not necessarily his or hers. Any suggestions. Can anyone get my spirits up today? William in Montreal

William, perhaps you are jumping too quickly to a conclusion about what this means. First, you need to be sure what type of IGI reference you are seeing. Is it *just* a user-contributed database with a high probability of both missing and wrong information? Or, is it an actual extract of a vital record? Was the "missing child" one who was born at home, presented for baptism, and the officiant didn't know the exact date of birth so only wrote the year? When you say you wrote for the "birth extract" do you mean you got the official record of the birth as recorded in the register? Perhaps if you give more specific information, either here or on the surname list for that person, someone will have the data you seek to clear up this mystery. Regards, Sharyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Innes" <w.innes@sympatico.ca> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:36 AM Subject: [MORAY] My spirits are low > This is William. > > I find myself getting very paranoid or is it due to the fact that it is just > frustration. > > Here is what my problem is: On a few occasions, while looking at the IGI, I > have come across inscriptions which gives me a name but for the date it only > gives me the year. To be more specific, in this instance, I tried to find > how many siblings there were in one specific family and it would give me all > the names including the complete birth dates except one would only show the > year of birth. > > So, at this point, I order the birth extracts for the whole family and when > I get them, there is one missing. Guess which one!!! > > I firmly believe that this inscription was put in there to simply hide the > fact that someone had an illicit affair and also had the power to make > changes so that this birth was not necessarily his or hers. > > Any suggestions. > > Can anyone get my spirits up today? > > William in Montreal

Thanks, "KD" Ray. > > From: karen donald <karenadona@yahoo.co.uk> > Date: 2005/05/04 Wed AM 03:37:08 GMT+12:00 > To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MORAY] Off Topic - Brick Walls > > Hi again > > You can find my database including McIntoshes and > Calders in and around Moray on > > http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=:3044593 > > Karen Donald > > > > > --- Wiccanpt2 <Wiccanpt2@netzero.net> wrote: > > Thanks to Ian and Marnie for your words of wisdom. > > Very much appreciated. > > I am visiting Scotland in two weeks and if I can not > > find any more clues for > > my MACKINTOSH's / CALDER's / LAMB's that will more > > than likely be the end of > > the road with this branch for a bit. Then onto the > > WILLIAMSON's in > > Ayrshire. Another brick wall that I hope will > > tumble!!! > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Sherry > > Canton, Michigan > > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your > > email address, or report anything to the admin of > > the list - all this information can be found at > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > > > ============================== > > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > > not only for > > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your email address, or report anything to the admin of the list - all this information can be found at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Dear Listers, A general query - According to the IGI, Lachlan GRANT was Christened 17. Dec. 1797 at: Cromdale And Inverallan And Advie, Inverness, Scotland. I do not know how to interpret this information, but I am sure someone out there will soon put me right. Where was the wee babe Christened? Here's hoping...........Judy. Perth. W.Australia

> A general query - According to the IGI, Lachlan GRANT was > Christened 17 Dec 1797 at: > Cromdale And Inverallan And Advie, Inverness, Scotland. > I do not know how to interpret this information, but I am sure > someone out > there will soon put me right. Where was the wee babe > Christened? Hi Judy Tha IGI indexes only the parish where the baptism was recorded. Cromdale, Inverallan and Advie is the name of a parish. There were formerly three separate parishes, but some time before the 18th century they were amalgamated, hence the cumbersome name. When you find an entry in the IGI, you should always plan to look at the original entry - in this case the IGI says it is 'extracted' and the Batch No is C110932, so it is from the Church of Scotland register for the combined parish of Cromdale Inverallan and Advie. I can't recall offhand how much detail the Cromdale Inverallan and Advie parish register goes into, but the most you are likely to find is the parents' residence and possibly names of witnesses. I do not think it is likely to say where exactly within the parish the christening took place. HTH Anne

This is one parish amalgamated at various times into one, two or three parishes. At that time it was one!Could be any of them.And at some time it was the County of Inverness and at others Moray !! Just to confuse matters even more. Karen Donald --- Judy Acaster <jude.a@iinet.net.au> wrote: > Dear Listers, > > A general query - According to the IGI, Lachlan > GRANT was Christened 17. > Dec. 1797 at: > > Cromdale And Inverallan And Advie, Inverness, > Scotland. > > I do not know how to interpret this information, but > I am sure someone out > there will soon put me right. Where was the wee > babe Christened? > > Here's hoping...........Judy. Perth. W.Australia > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > Please do not send virus warnings to this list. If > you have concerns about a virus, contact the list > admin at MORAY-D-request@rootsweb.com or join > VIRUS-DISCUSSIONS-L@rootsweb.com subscribe in the > subject line. > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about > your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > >

The Death Certs arent's much better.Not uncommon to find grandparents names wrong and age and occupation.But under the circumstances it is hardly surprising when poor bereaved realtives are sent off to register the death only to realise they don't know half the facts. Never mind, the registrars will prompt and get something out of them!Having said that I think I made 3 mistakes on my own Mother's death Cert!And thats just the unintentional mistakes ! Pinch of salt.Pink of salt. Karen Donald --- IACSCOTT@aol.com wrote: > Some short time ago a question was raised regarding > the information recorded > on a birth certificate regarding the date of > marriage and the place it took > place. At the time it was pointed out it was not > uncommon for this > information to be erroneous and I add below the text > of an RCE relating to the birth of > one of my ancestors, David Alexander Scott. > > Register of Corrected entries for his birth record > at 692/2/1188 reads as > follows: > > In column 4 of entry 1188 in the Register Book of > Births for the year 1895 > under the heading 'Date and Place of marriage cancel > '1891' and substitute > '1892', c ancel '25th' and substitute '26th' and > cancel 'No. Leith' and > substitute 'St Andrew, Edinburgh'. > > The above alterations are made under the direction > and by the written > authority of the Sheriff in consequence of the > Deposition dated 15th October 1895 > of Charles Scott informant of the birth to which > said entry relates. > > Charles, the father, did not get anything other, > than the month, right when > he registered his son's birth. Bet his wife gave him > quite a hard time! > > Ian A C Scott > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > Please do not send virus warnings to this list. If > you have concerns about a virus, contact the list > admin at MORAY-D-request@rootsweb.com or join > VIRUS-DISCUSSIONS-L@rootsweb.com subscribe in the > subject line. > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death > Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > >

I have a list of the records and dates of BMDs available for the different parishes. What dates are we talking roughly ? Old Parish Registers which have survived ( can be borrowed from the Mormon Church) Inveravon B 1630 - 1854 M 1630 - 1854 D 1636 - 1783 and 1844-1854 They sometimes give extra details which aren't in the IGI such as the sponsor of the illegit child and place names. After 1855 we are into Statutory Register which is on Scotlanspeople. Grrrrrrrrr. Glenlivet A fine whisky !! What parish is this ?? And if he was illegit he should still be in there.Could also try the Kirk session minutes as his parents may have been fined for fornictaion and recorded! Karen --- William Innes <w.innes@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Thank to everyone who helped me find out about > “SLUGGAN”. > > What we found out was that in the early 1800’s the > building in question was > named Sluggan and later, about 1825 was changed to > Claggan and Upper > Claggan. The 1881 Census shows it as Claggan in the > community of Glenlivet. > > My next queery also concerns a ‘proverbial brick > wall’. Can anyone tell me > if there are any other birth records available, > other than the IGI. > > I have a feeling that my ancestor may have been an > illegitimate child and > was wondering if there are any such records for > either Inveravon or > Glenlivet. > > William in Montreal > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can > always visit the archives of this list > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. The > archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a > new or established lister. > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and > search for your ancestors at the same time. Share > your tree with family and friends. Learn more: > http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > >

Hi again You can find my database including McIntoshes and Calders in and around Moray on http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=:3044593 Karen Donald --- Wiccanpt2 <Wiccanpt2@netzero.net> wrote: > Thanks to Ian and Marnie for your words of wisdom. > Very much appreciated. > I am visiting Scotland in two weeks and if I can not > find any more clues for > my MACKINTOSH's / CALDER's / LAMB's that will more > than likely be the end of > the road with this branch for a bit. Then onto the > WILLIAMSON's in > Ayrshire. Another brick wall that I hope will > tumble!!! > > Many thanks, > > Sherry > Canton, Michigan > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your > email address, or report anything to the admin of > the list - all this information can be found at > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Forsyth / Galt / Gaul/ gault Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/BgC.2ACI/1286 Message Board Post: Hi all I seem to have hit a dead end with the following. Can anyone help / link in?!!! Name: James FORSYTH ---------------------------------------- Birth Date: ca 1761 Death Date: 21 12 1820 Age: 59 Death Place: Drainie - Longrigg Occupation: Farmer Marriage Date: 25 3 1785 Marriage Place: Drainie ---------------------------------------- Spouse: Helen (Ann?) GALT ---------------------------------------- Birth Date: bef 1770 Death Date: bef 12 1863 Age: 93 Children: ---------------------------------------- 1 F: Jean FORSYTH Birth Date: 17 2 1786 Birth Place: Drainie Death Date: 29 9 1861 Age: 75 Death Place: Drainie - pauper when died ---------------------------------------- 2 M: Alexander FORSYTH Birth Date: 28 3 1789 Birth Place: drainie Death Date: 24 12 1863 Age: 74 Death Place: lossiemouth Spouse: Elspet or Elspit ANDERSON Marriage Date: 16 7 1824 Marriage Place: Drainie, Moray ---------------------------------------- 3 F: Ann FORSYTH Birth Date: 25 2 1791 Birth Place: Drainie Death Date: 22 4 1862 Age: 71 Death Place: Elgin - 211 High St Spouse: James DONALDSON ---------------------------------------- 4 M: John FORSYTH Birth Date: 15 5 1794 Birth Place: Drainie Spouse: Jane CATTILLO Marriage Date: 1 3 1828 Marriage Place: Drainie ---------------------------------------- 5 M: James FORSYTH Birth Date: 6 9 1796