At 08:43 PM 10/05/2005, Ray Hennessy wrote: >Hi Judy > >Further to Anne's reply on the trade, if you want to find the location of >a particular blacksmith, have a look at the 1896 Ordnance Survey maps >[re-published by Caledonian Maps]. These are all held at ANESFHS [who >will sell you copies] and probably in Elgin Library. Ferness would be on >Sheet 84, which I don't have. > >The maps show the location of each "Smithy", usually about 2-4 miles >apart. This was the equivalent of the UK Automobile Association showing >the location of AA-authorised garages in the inter-war years. As the main >means of personal transport in Victorian times was by horse, travellers >would need to know the nearest Smithy should they suffer the equivalent of >a mechanical breakdown - shedding a horse-shoe or breaking a carriage wheel! > >Best wishes > >Ray Hennessy Further to Ray's suggestion, I wonder if this the correct Smithy - it is opposite a bridge, just a short distance north of Ferness. and is on the OS map dated 1874. Go to :- http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.htm and place the following numbers into the search box:- 296096, 846222 then click on Co-ordinate then Search. You will then get two offers of maps - chose Nairnshire. Click on Enlarged view, and look in the centre to see the smithy on the west side of the Logie Bridge. I did not look south, as the site of this smithy was so close to a bridge, and the original place sought was "Smithy at Ferness Bridge", so I thought that this might be the appropriate one! Ed Barron <ejbarron@netspace.net.au>

Hi, James McArthur is my brick wall. I don't know his mother's name or when/where he was born. I don't know either of his wives' parents, or when/where those wives were born. Two of his children with Anne Kennedy have surnames used as middle names: Cumming and Falconer. I was hoping that these would be clues to link these families, but haven't found any ties and am afraid the names just might be random ( or to honor friends who were witnesses to christenings). Does anyone have any ideas/ties to this family? Thanks, Pat ---------------------------------------------------------- JAMES MACARTHUR (PETER1 MCARTHUR) was born 1799, and died October 6, 1877 at 124 Castlebank, Partick, Lanark, Scotland. He married (1) ELIZABETH MACKINTOSH September 15, 1823 in Holme, Croy, Inverness-shire, Scotland. Children of JAMES MACARTHUR and ELIZABETH MACKINTOSH are: i. MARGARET3 MACARTHUR, b. August 26, 1824, Brackenhaugh, Auldearn, Inverness-shire. September 27, 1824, christened at Auldearn, Inverness-shire ii. ELIZABETH MACARTHUR, b. April 17, 1826, Holme, Croy, Inverness-shire, Scotland. April 27, 1826, christened at Croy, Inverness-shire She married GEORGE REVOLTA. Child of ELIZABETH MACARTHUR and GEORGE REVOLTA is: ELIZABETH JESSIE4 REVOLTA, b. July 24, 1856, Elgin, Moray, Scotland. iii. PETER MACARTHUR, b. November 7, 1827, Holme, Croy, Inverness-shire, Scotland; December 25, 1827, christened at Croy, Inverness-shire d. April 7, 1908, Moss of Barmuckity, Scotland. iv. HUGH MACARTHUR, b. November 21, 1829, Holme, Croy, Inverness-shire, Scotland; November 26, 1829, christened at Croy, Inverness-shire. d. March 20, 1852, Elgin, Moray, Scotland. James married (2) ANNE KENNEDY July 11, 1833 in Holme, Croy, Scotland. She was born 1807 in Inverness, Scotland, and died June 10, 1854 in Elgin, Moray, Scotland. Children of JAMES MACARTHUR and ANNE KENNEDY are: v. WILLIAM CUMMING3 MCARTHUR, b. January 29, 1834, Holme, Croy, Inverness-shire, Scotland. (My direct ancestor- see below*) vi. ANNE MCARTHUR, b. March 9, 1836, Butler in Holm, Croy, Scotland; March 25, 1836, Christened at Croy m. ALEXANDER STRONACH ??, December 30, 1853, Rafford, Moray, Scotland?? d. April 6, 1863, Elgin, Moray, Scotland vii. JAMES FALCONER MCARTHUR, b. October 22, 1837, Holm Lodge, Croy, Scotland. December 19, 1837, Christened at Croy viii. CHARLOTTE MCARTHUR, b. 1839, Inverness Shire, Croy, Scotland. Christened??? (On Kinchyle census, 1841) She married FRANCIS THOMSON July 17, 1868 in Partick, Lanark, Scotland. He was born 1845. Children of CHARLOTTE MCARTHUR and FRANCIS THOMSON are: i. CHARLOTTE MARY4 THOMSON, b. February 13, 1867, Govan, Lanark, Scotland. ii. WILLIAM MCARTHUR THOMSON, b. July 5, 1870, Govan, Lanark, Scotland. ix. GEORGE MCARTHUR, b. 1841, Inverness Shire, Croy, Scotland. Christened? On Kinchyle census, 1841 ------------------------------------------------------------- * WILLIAM CUMMING3 MCARTHUR (JAMES2 MACARTHUR, PETER1 MCARTHUR) was born January 29, 1834 in Holme, Croy, Inverness-shire, Scotland. He married ISABELLA GAIRN November 10, 1854 in Inverness, Scotland, daughter of JOSEPH GARDEN and ELSPET BOOTH. She was born December 22, 1833 in Deskford, Banffshire, Scotland. Children of WILLIAM MCARTHUR and ISABELLA GAIRN are: i. ISABELLA4 MCARTHUR, b. April 19, 1857, Inglismaldie, Mary kirk, Kincardine, Scotland. * ii. WILLIAM ROBERT MCARTHUR, b. April 18, 1859, Stankeye, Fetter cairn, Kincardine, Scotland; d. May 26, 1924, 175 W. Randolph Ave., Chicago, Cook County, IL. iii. MARY E. MCARTHUR, b. Abt. 1861, Fettercairn, Kincardine, Scotland. iv. ELSIE MCARTHUR, b. April 23, 1863, Lake Gate at Fasque, Fetter cairn, Kincardine, Scotland. Fact 1: 1881, Belhelvie, Aberdeenshire (Dressmaker) v. JAMES MCARTHUR, b. August 2, 1865, Fasque, Fettercairn, Kincardine, Scotland. Fact 1: 1881, Aberdeen St. Nicholas-Mary-Apprentice Pi vi. GEORGE MCARTHUR, b. November 19, 1867, Fasque, Fettercairn, Kincardine, Scotland. Fact 1: 1881, Aberdeen St. Nicholas-Mary-Scholar vii. ROBERT MCARTHUR, b. June 26, 1870, Fasque, Fetter Cairn, Scotland. Fact 1: 1881, Belhelvie, Aberdeenshire (Scholar) viii. ANN MCARTHUR, b. August 20, 1872, Brechin, Forfar, Scotland. Fact 1: 1881, Aberdeen St. Nicholas-Mary-Scholar ix. ALEXANDER MCARTHUR, b. September 7, 1874, Brechin, Forfar, Scotland. x. JOHANN B. MCARTHUR, b. Abt. 1877, Brechin, Forfar, Scotland. Fact 1: 1881, Belhelvie, Aberdeenshire.

Hi List, Lachlan Grant was a master blacksmith employing 3 journeymen in the 1851 Census for Nairn. Their address was Ferness Bridge and they left Scotland in 1857 to travel to Australia. Is there anyone who knows anything of the blacksmith trade? Would they be indentured? Apprenticed? Would they travel around the country? Lachlan's son, John was employed in the same trade and possibly his other sons. Any news is good news!...........Judy. Perth. W.Australia.

> For those of us "o'er the water", how much can we glean from > ANESFHS via computer? Quite a lot; but it pales into insignificance by comparison with the resources they have in the Family History Shop. > I'm interested in BMD's in Brechin & Inverurie, to early 1800's. You won't find those on the ANESFHS or any online site. There is an index on www.familysearch.org and a better index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. You need to look at the original parish registers to get the details; but Brechin is in Angus, which is covered by Tay Valley FHS rather than ANESFHS. > What can you tell me of Loch Katrine?There is one here in the > Kingston, NY area, and I'd like to try and pinpoint that naming. I'm willing to bet that it ws named by immigrants after Loch Katrine in the Trossachs - it is one of the best-known of Scottish Lochs, having been 'immortalised' (horrible expression!) by Sir Walter Scott in his poem 'The Lady of the Lake'. A google search will peovide everything you could wish to know about Loch Katrine. > Also, there is a community called "Toodlum", and I believe there is > a > dance with that name in it, Tilllie Toodlum Castle? Yes, but it's just Tillietudlum. Here are the instructions: TILLIETUDLUM (J8x32) 3C (4C set) H Foss Waverly Fugues 1-16 1L followed by partner casts off 2 places, 1L crosses to opposite side, set, lead to top, cross Lady in front into prom hold & Promenade to 2M's place & stand for 4 bars WHILE 2s stand for 2, dance up for 2, 2L followed by partner casts off 2 places, 2L crosses to opposite side, set, lead up to 2L place & face in prom hold WHILE 3s stand for 2, dance up for 2, stand for 2, dance up for 2, 3L followed by partner casts off 2 places, cross to opposite side, set, lead to top & face 1s in prom hold 17-24 3s dance LSh reels of 3 across set with 1s+2s to end facing up 3 1 2 24-32 3s+1s+2s Promenade for 6bars, 3s cast to 3rd place as 1s lead to top & cast to 2nd place as 2s dance to top As you can see it was written by Hugh Foss, but as I don't have a copyof his book I can't tell you why he gave it this name. Tilliietudlem is near Lanark. You can find it on www.streetmap.co.uk at OS Grid Reference 280500,645500. The nearby castle is Craignethan. James B Johnston, in his 'Place Names of Scotland', says that Tillietudlem is a fanciful name found in Scott's 'Old Mortality'. However Johnston is not regarded as reliable by modern place name scholars, so I can't say whether the name was borrowed by Scott for his book, or bestowed by someone who had read the book! HTH Anne

Anne Burgess wrote >>> How popular is the name Beatrice and its variants? > > I would agree with Ray that Beatrice and variants are quite rare. > > However there is potential for confusion because Betty/Betsy is used > as an abbreviation for both Beatrice and Elizabeth, and I have seen a > couple of ladies who were variously recorded as both Beatrice and > Elizabeth. ... So although it's unlikely, you cannot eliminate the > possibility that a Beatrice was baptised Elizabeth and vice versa. My inclination is to assume [no evidence, just modern arrogance!] that a Beatrice might be called Beattie or Betty. If Beattie, she would always be known as Beatrice. However if her pet name was Betty, her name could easily be assumed by a scribe in ahurry to be Elizabeth. It would be interesting [to me at least] to follow some of these people through their lives but my gut feel is that Betty was normally assumed to be Elizabeth [or a variant] and if it was used for a Beatrice, then confusion could result. Of course Betty and Beattie probably sounded the same to a non-local which would be what most of the Ministers and Census Enumerators would be. Anyway. In the 1841 Census there are over 400 Betty, Betsy and variations, and over 8000 Elizabeth/Elisabeths and 4000+ variants of Eliza/Elisa/Elspet/Elspit. I have ignored the 6000++ variations on Isobel/Isabel for this analysis. Given the very tiny number of variants of Beatrice [65], it seems unlikely that many of the Bettys are actually Beatrice!! [But I did allow for a few in my guesstimate of 0.1%. Hah! :-)) ] Best wishes Ray www.whatsinaname.net

>> How popular is the name Beatrice and its variants? > Allowing for some recorded as "Betty", etc, to be in the group, it looks > like about 0.1% of women were called Beatrice. It's difficult to be sure > but I would guess that it would have been a rare name in N E Scotland in > 1841. I would agree with Ray that Beatrice and variants are quite rare. However there is potential for confusion because Betty/Betsy is used as an abbreviation for both Beatrice and Elizabeth, and I have seen a couple of ladies who were variously recorded as both Beatrice and Elizabeth. (See the earlier thread in April 2005 "Duff look-up - mortlach" for an example of this.) So although it's unlikely, you cannot eliminate the possibility that a Beatrice was baptised Elizabeth and vice versa. An additional complication arises from the fact that Elspet(h) and hence Elsie, and Isabella, both originated as variants of Elizabeth. (Elspet(h) is the Scots version and Isabel(la) is originally the Spanish, though it has become Scottish by adoption. So a family with an Elspet, an Elizabeth and an Isabella actually has three daughters with the same basic given name! Anne

> have a look at the 1896 Ordnance Survey maps [re-published by Caledonian > Maps]. These are all held at ANESFHS [who will sell you copies] and > probably in Elgin Library. Not to my knowledge; but Moray Local Heritage Centre (currently housed in Elgin Library) does have a set of the six-inch-to-the mile Ordnance Survey maps from the 1870s. I think these are the same maps which are online at www.old-maps.co.uk. They're a bit tedious to navigate, but if you have a map reference (from www.streetmap.co.uk, for example) you can use this to home in on the spot you are interested in. Anne

Howard Geddes wrote: > For Ray Hennessy's info, one line seems to have ended up in Aberlour. > (Ray: did we not correspond about them a long while ago?) Aye Howard, we did correspond on a number of aspects. We have a Margaret GEDDES, second wife of James WISELY [m.10.7.1849], but not, as far as I know, associated with Aberlour. Our link is with James WISELY's first wife, but I am desperately trying to document the extended tree in that area as about 7 or 8 living relatives want the whole mixture sorted out. Any information on that Margaret would be useful and very welcome. Incidentally we also have a Janet GEDDIE who married John GRAY somewhere in the Longside or nearby areas around 1820-1830. Are the GEDDIE line a variant of GEDDES?? Janet & John's son married the daughter of James WISELY's first wife, so the linking of the names GEDDES & GEDDIE would be intriguing! Best wishes Ray Hennessy

Hi Judy Further to Anne's reply on the trade, if you want to find the location of a particular blacksmith, have a look at the 1896 Ordnance Survey maps [re-published by Caledonian Maps]. These are all held at ANESFHS [who will sell you copies] and probably in Elgin Library. Ferness would be on Sheet 84, which I don't have. The maps show the location of each "Smithy", usually about 2-4 miles apart. This was the equivalent of the UK Automobile Association showing the location of AA-authorised garages in the inter-war years. As the main means of personal transport in Victorian times was by horse, travellers would need to know the nearest Smithy should they suffer the equivalent of a mechanical breakdown - shedding a horse-shoe or breaking a carriage wheel! Best wishes Ray Hennessy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Burgess" <anne.burgess@btinternet.com> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [MORAY] GRANT/Blacksmith >> Is there anyone who knows anything of the blacksmith trade? >> Would they be >> indentured? Apprenticed? Would they travel around the country? > > A blacksmith did have to serve an apprenticeship, though I doubt that > all apprentice blacksmiths in rural areas would have been formally > indentured. Just as with other skilled trades, sons are often found in > the census as apprentices to their fathers. > > Once he had served his apprenticeship, he would become a journeyman. > However this has nothing to do with travelling, though many journeymen > did exactly that. It is from French 'journée' maning '[the duration of > a] day' and meant that, having completed his apprenticeship, he was a > skilled man and could work for a master and be paid by the day. > > Many young men took the opportunity to go and find paid work with a > master in another part of the country, and though some subsequently > returned to their home parish, many did not. (Girls did the same > thing, entering into domestic service away from home, and often > marrying where they worked.) > > After working as a journeyman for a time, a man could then decide that > it was time to set up his own business. In some trades there were > restrictions on who could and could not become a master, but I doubt > if these restrictions could have been readily enforced among country > blacksmiths. > > Once established as a master, he could then employ journeymen, and > take on and train apprentices in his turn. > > Ferness Bridge, incidentally, is about 10 miles from the town of > Nairn, though still (just) in the County of Nairn. It is where the > road from Nairn to Grantown crosses the River Findhorn. You can see it > on www.streetmap.co.uk if you search for Ferness and zoom in (use the > third 'house' symbol in the box below the map to get the best scale). > > HTH > > Anne > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can always visit the > archives of this list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. > The archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a new or > established lister. > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

Kathryn Rogers wrote: > How popular is the name Beatrice and its variants? Hi Kathryn Rare!! I've had a quick look at the 1841 Census of Aberdeenshire [courtesy of Michelle Jeffery]. Of course, this is only a very small and localised sample, but here is what I've found out. There are over 155000 people and 2165 name variants [both sexes]. I haven't counted but it will be roughly 80000 women. There are 65 people with 20 variants of Beatrice [18 occurrences]. Beatrix [21] is the most frequent spelling. Betridge [3] and similar variants, account for about a quarter. [We have listed many of the variants on the website.] Allowing for some recorded as "Betty", etc, to be in the group, it looks like about 0.1% of women were called Beatrice. It's difficult to be sure but I would guess that it would have been a rare name in N E Scotland in 1841. Another little extract [by Gavin Bell] shows no occurrences of any variant in 1851 in the Parish of Rathven. Best wishes Ray Hennessy www.whatsinaname.net

How popular is the name Beatrice and its variants? My Helen Innes who was according to census records from the same area as William's family and she named her 2nd daughter Betrice. So is this coincidence or is it a very popular name - this is the only instance of it in any of our family research. Kathryn, Melbourne Australia -----Original Message----- From: Anne Burgess [mailto:anne.burgess@btinternet.com] Sent: Friday, 6 May 2005 11:03 PM To: MORAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MORAY] My spirits are rising > I am actually trying to find the birth for William Innes b: about 1778 > > > in Inveravon. Ah, I see. You may eventually have to accept that the record of William's birth and/or baptism has simply not survived. There are often gaps in the parish registers, especially before 1800, because either the information was never written down, or because the record was lost or destroyed. > Regrettably, the extract does not show where he is buried. The place of burial is shown only on death certificates from 1855 to 1859. > To try and find William's parents and concentrating on the year 1778 > only > I have been able to find a birth for that year but with parents being > James Innes and Beatrix Mason. Highly unlikely to be the right one, for several reasons (1) wrong parish (2) wrong father's name (3) there is no sign of a Beatrix among your William's descendants. There are at least two William Inneses of the right sort of age in the 1841 census in Mortlach, so you could try eliminating them by using the SP death records. Anne ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can always visit the archives of this list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. The archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a new or established lister. ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

> Is there anyone who knows anything of the blacksmith trade? > Would they be > indentured? Apprenticed? Would they travel around the country? A blacksmith did have to serve an apprenticeship, though I doubt that all apprentice blacksmiths in rural areas would have been formally indentured. Just as with other skilled trades, sons are often found in the census as apprentices to their fathers. Once he had served his apprenticeship, he would become a journeyman. However this has nothing to do with travelling, though many journeymen did exactly that. It is from French 'journée' maning '[the duration of a] day' and meant that, having completed his apprenticeship, he was a skilled man and could work for a master and be paid by the day. Many young men took the opportunity to go and find paid work with a master in another part of the country, and though some subsequently returned to their home parish, many did not. (Girls did the same thing, entering into domestic service away from home, and often marrying where they worked.) After working as a journeyman for a time, a man could then decide that it was time to set up his own business. In some trades there were restrictions on who could and could not become a master, but I doubt if these restrictions could have been readily enforced among country blacksmiths. Once established as a master, he could then employ journeymen, and take on and train apprentices in his turn. Ferness Bridge, incidentally, is about 10 miles from the town of Nairn, though still (just) in the County of Nairn. It is where the road from Nairn to Grantown crosses the River Findhorn. You can see it on www.streetmap.co.uk if you search for Ferness and zoom in (use the third 'house' symbol in the box below the map to get the best scale). HTH Anne

Ray, For those of us "o'er the water", how much can we glean from ANESFHS via computer? I'm interested in BMD's in Brechin & Inverurie, to early 1800's. While I've not been active of late, I'm no less interested in all that transpires on this List. I've been busy with Catskill Mt families and history, here in NY. I've found some 'cousins' here, and have been hooking them up with each other. If this is not too off-topic: Robert Livingston wanted to name the Catskills after the Lothians, from whence his family came. The Dutch name won out. What can you tell me of Loch Katrine? There is one here in the Kingston, NY area, and I'd like to try and pinpoint that naming. Also, there is a community called "Toodlum", and I believe there is a dance with that name in it, Tilllie Toodlum Castle? While Toodlum, in the 1850-1900, was mostly Irish quarryworkers, I'm thinking there may be a Scots influence as well. Cheers, Peigi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hennessy" <ray@whatsinaname.net> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:43 AM Subject: Re: [MORAY] GRANT/Blacksmith > Hi Judy > > Further to Anne's reply on the trade, if you want to find the location > of a particular blacksmith, have a look at the 1896 Ordnance Survey maps > [re-published by Caledonian Maps]. These are all held at ANESFHS [who > will sell you copies] and probably in Elgin Library. Ferness would be > on Sheet 84, which I don't have. > > The maps show the location of each "Smithy", usually about 2-4 miles > apart. This was the equivalent of the UK Automobile Association showing > the location of AA-authorised garages in the inter-war years. As the > main means of personal transport in Victorian times was by horse, > travellers would need to know the nearest Smithy should they suffer the > equivalent of a mechanical breakdown - shedding a horse-shoe or breaking > a carriage wheel! > > Best wishes > > Ray Hennessy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anne Burgess" <anne.burgess@btinternet.com> > To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:11 AM > Subject: Re: [MORAY] GRANT/Blacksmith > > > >> Is there anyone who knows anything of the blacksmith trade? > >> Would they be > >> indentured? Apprenticed? Would they travel around the country? > > > > A blacksmith did have to serve an apprenticeship, though I doubt that > > all apprentice blacksmiths in rural areas would have been formally > > indentured. Just as with other skilled trades, sons are often found in > > the census as apprentices to their fathers. > > > > Once he had served his apprenticeship, he would become a journeyman. > > However this has nothing to do with travelling, though many journeymen > > did exactly that. It is from French 'journée' maning '[the duration of > > a] day' and meant that, having completed his apprenticeship, he was a > > skilled man and could work for a master and be paid by the day. > > > > Many young men took the opportunity to go and find paid work with a > > master in another part of the country, and though some subsequently > > returned to their home parish, many did not. (Girls did the same > > thing, entering into domestic service away from home, and often > > marrying where they worked.) > > > > After working as a journeyman for a time, a man could then decide that > > it was time to set up his own business. In some trades there were > > restrictions on who could and could not become a master, but I doubt > > if these restrictions could have been readily enforced among country > > blacksmiths. > > > > Once established as a master, he could then employ journeymen, and > > take on and train apprentices in his turn. > > > > Ferness Bridge, incidentally, is about 10 miles from the town of > > Nairn, though still (just) in the County of Nairn. It is where the > > road from Nairn to Grantown crosses the River Findhorn. You can see it > > on www.streetmap.co.uk if you search for Ferness and zoom in (use the > > third 'house' symbol in the box below the map to get the best scale). > > > > HTH > > > > Anne > > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > > Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can always visit the > > archives of this list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. > > The archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a new or > > established lister. > > > > ============================== > > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > > New content added every business day. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > MORAY OPR's. The OPR's for the Moray area are now starting to be transcribed and volunteers are needed. Would anyone interested in transcribing the OPR's for our area please contact me via my usual email address or visit the Moray Rootsweb pages and contact me via the mailing list Admin. > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Princess Beatrice was born in 1857 to Queen Victoria. I am not sure what time period you are talking about but maybe she was named after her.. Karen Donald --- "Rogers, Kathryn" <Kathryn.Rogers@originenergy.com.au> wrote: > How popular is the name Beatrice and its variants? > > My Helen Innes who was according to census records > from the same area as > William's family and she named her 2nd daughter > Betrice. > > So is this coincidence or is it a very popular name > - this is the only > instance of it in any of our family research. > > Kathryn, Melbourne Australia > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne Burgess > [mailto:anne.burgess@btinternet.com] > Sent: Friday, 6 May 2005 11:03 PM > To: MORAY -L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MORAY] My spirits are rising > > > > I am actually trying to find the birth for William > Innes b: about 1778 > > > > > > in Inveravon. > Ah, I see. > > You may eventually have to accept that the record of > William's birth > and/or > baptism has simply not survived. There are often > gaps in the parish > registers, especially before 1800, because either > the information was > never > written down, or because the record was lost or > destroyed. > > > Regrettably, the extract does not show where he is > buried. > The place of burial is shown only on death > certificates from 1855 to > 1859. > > > To try and find William's parents and > concentrating on the year 1778 > > only > > I have been able to find a birth for that year but > with parents being > > James Innes and Beatrix Mason. > Highly unlikely to be the right one, for several > reasons > > (1) wrong parish > (2) wrong father's name > (3) there is no sign of a Beatrix among your > William's descendants. > > There are at least two William Inneses of the right > sort of age in the > 1841 > census in Mortlach, so you could try eliminating > them by using the SP > death > records. > > Anne > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > Don't forget that if you delete a message, you can > always visit the > archives of this list > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/MORAY/. The > archives are also worth looking at, whether you be a > new or established > lister. > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about > your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the > last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsub for your holidays, change your > email address, or report anything to the admin of > the list - all this information can be found at > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/MORAY.html > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and > search for your ancestors at the same time. Share > your tree with family and friends. Learn more: > http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > >

I am reminded of William Falconer, born about 1846 (He isn't in the OPR, though his siblings are) in Edinkillie to William Falconer and Isabella Walker, both from Duffus. He is listed as their son in the 1851 census, but heisn't listed on his parents' gravestone, though again all his siblings are. He married Jane Stephen at Coxton, Lhanbryde on 2 September 1884, giving his address as Kansas City, USA. Any information about his later life and descendants would be welcome. Anne

I am reminded of William Falconer, born about 1846 (He isn't in the OPR, though his siblings are) in Edinkillie to William Falconer and Isabella Walker, both from Duffus. He is listed as their son in the 1851 census, but heisn't listed on his parents' gravestone, though again all his siblings are. He married Jane Stephen at Coxton, Lhanbryde on 2 September 1884, giving his address as Kansas City, USA. Any information about his later life and descendants would be welcome. Anne

Hi Susan, Have you by any chance come across Colin FALCONER and Marjory GEDDES? In summary, they married 22-Jun-1710 Keith Banffshire and had 6 children in Keith then a further 5 in Portsoy the last one being in 1733. He was a merchant in Portsoy and died in 1756 - his property in Portsoy was auctioned off on 22-Jul-1756 according to the Aberdeen Journal. I've got a candidate baptism for him from the IGI: Colin Falconar 21-Apr-1687 Dyke Moray to Wm Falconer: have you got the actual entry OPR? I'm trying to identify Marjory GEDDES, presumably born abt 1693, possibly in/near Keith, who might fit into one strain of my own Geddeses. Hard information is a bit sparse this early, to say the least! There's also a Charles FALCONER who married Margaret MURDOCH 17-Nov-1785 Auldearn; it looks as though a son Charles FALCONER married an Elspet McINTOSH in Cullen in 1815 and they had family in Fordyce parish somewhere - probably Portsoy and probably merchants too; maybe it was their son Charles FALCONER who married Joanna LEDINGHAM in 1860 in Alvah. Happy to send you the rest of the details off list. And if anyone knows of his merchanting activities in Portsoy/Keith I'd be pleased to hear. I wonder if he was another Moray merchant who kept to his side of the law.... For Ray Hennessy's info, one line seems to have ended up in Aberlour. (Ray: did we not correspond about them a long while ago?) Regards Howard Geddes

It was not only the labourers who moved frequently.Most farmers in Scotland were tenants and they usually moved when their lease expired.The traditional lease was for 19 years but many were for less.When the lease was up it was everybody on the cairt and away they went, not very far usually, maybe into the next parish.In researching my family I found that every generation moved at least three times.Regards Harry in Agincourt.

The LIBINDX is wonderful for people with ancestors from Moray!! Thanks to you to all!If you ahevn't yet had a look it is a must. Yes there are some discrepencies between info on the index and the IGI.I tend to think the LIBINDX most accurate as much of the information comes first hand from relatives who are putting in an obituary into the local newspaper. To children christened in different parishes. I have found agricultural labourers tended to follow the work and so moved frequently. One of my Frasers has a listing of over 15 addresses! I have also found the further back you go the less they tended to move out of the area they were born, in unless to emmigrate. But with the advent of the train they became far more adventurous ( and harder to track down to any specific area!!) So the trick is to always look in nearby parishes if they can't first be found. Karen Donald --- Susan McClure <smcclure@cox.net> wrote: > I want to thank Anne who on May 7th suggersted I go > to LIBINDX for information on my Falconer line. > Although I did not find the Falconers I wanted I did > find some other infromation on my Trye and McCulloch > lines. And amasing enough I found that the Ann Tyre > that married John McCulloch was from Edinkillie, a > parish that I had not examined Old Parish IGI > records from. > I also found that the marriage date differed from > the IGI Old Parish record date I had. I think the > LININDX date is most likely the correct one since > they ae using a different source. I will still need > to order the microfilms for the Edinkillie records > to go through them rather than just examine the > online fact. > > My questions would then be: > 1. Have people found the IGI extracts to sometimes > be incorrect? > 2. The various parishes my ancestors are from are > near each other, usually within 7 to 15 miles:. In > the Falconer instance, 3 cildren were christened in > New Spynie (about 1-2 miles north of Elgin), one in > Rafford,(about 4 miles south of Forres) and 3 in > Dyke (about 4 miles west of Forres). Did these > families tend to move around alot? Or would he > mother possibly been visiting relatives or something > when she had the child and it was christened in the > relatives's paish since the christening usually > occurred within 2-3 days of the birth? I guess for > some reason, I thought that people would tend to > saty in one place and possibly meet their spouses > in the same town especially in the era that there > were no cars. But I now realize that people were > fairly mobile in the 1700s and 1800s and I need to > expand my horizons to many of the other parishes > that I had been neglecting. Of course when one > finds a couple of Ann Tyre' and a couple of John > McCullochs in several parishes (and tha! > t is using the parish record microfilms-not just > the IGI online extracts) that are in the same time > span, it really > becomes confusing, especially when the mother is not > listed for a christening. I would appreciate any > comment others mikght have on christening locations. > Thank you all again for help you give. > Susan McClure > > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > MORAY OPR's. The OPR's for the Moray area are now > starting to be transcribed and volunteers are > needed. Would anyone interested in transcribing the > OPR's for our area please contact me via my usual > email address or visit the Moray Rootsweb pages and > contact me via the mailing list Admin. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million > records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the > world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Susan McClure asked about date variations in the OPRs and the IGI Hi Susan Just one addition to Anne's input. Sometimes there are occasions when births are registered very late. We've found some families where four or five children were christened/baptized at the same time, several years after their birth. It often shows up as a Frame Reference [FR####] in the microfiche OPR indexes indicating that it is out of the sequential date order. I'm not sure what the reason is for these late entries, but a number of ideas have been aired: 1. The Minister's notes may be transcribed very much later than the event[s]. 2. The Minister has scoured the district for "missed" families in outlying areas. 3. A new Minister has decided to round up the strayed flock ignored by his predecessor. 4. The registering was a legal requirement even if one didn't attend the C of S, so it may have been a Bishop's or Sheriff's edict. This legality was so much ignored [due to the fees?] that the requirement is often not realised. 5. The family may have been away and wanted to set the record straight. 6. The family only just got round to it. Take your pick - there are probably other reasons. But one result is that the birth date was often recorded in these cases, although it is no more a guarantee for a date of birth than the christening records in most OPRs which seldom record the actual date of the birth. "Catching up" late recordings was not so frequent, I think, for marriages, but again it may have happened which could explain differing entries. The other reasons are : sometimes that the banns are recorded leading to multiple records or the banns in the bride's and groom's parishes may be on different dates giving multiple or confusing entries. As Anne says, you have to go back to the original films to try to get to the bottom of any confusion! I confess I don't really trust the IGI at all but it can be a useful starting point. Best wishes and good luck Ray Hennessy www.whatsinaname.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Burgess" <anne.burgess@btinternet.com> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [MORAY] Falconer line >> I found that the Ann Tyre that married John McCulloch was from >> Edinkillie, a parish that I had not examined Old Parish IGI records >> > from. >> I also found that the marriage date differed from the IGI Old Parish >> > record date I had. I think the LININDX date is most likely the >> correct > one since they ae using a different source. I will still >> need to order >> the microfilms for the Edinkillie records to go through them rather >> than just examine the online fact. > It is always essential to look at the originals of anything you find > online. > > In particular the date listed in the IGI is often the date of the > proclamation of banns rather than the date of the wedding ceremony. > However in this case the IGI date is later than the LIBINDX date so > you need to try to get hold of both source documents to find out where > the discrepancy comes from. > >> My questions would then be: >> 1. Have people found the IGI extracts to sometimes be incorrect? > Yes, especailly where the information is 'submitted' rather than > 'extracted'. Remember that the IGI does not contain *records*, even > though that is how it described them. The IGI is an *index* to the > original records, and invaluable as a finding aid, but it is not > original data. > >> 2. The various parishes my ancestors are from are near each other > >> Did these families tend to move around alot? > They would have moved around a bit in the local area, notably if the > father was a farm servant. Farm servants were usually hired for six > months at a time, and might easily move several times during the early > years of his marriage. Once he made the transition from farm servant > to farmer or crofter, they would tend to stay put. > >> Or would he mother possibly been visiting relatives or something >> when she had the child and it was christened in the relatives's >> paish since the christening usually occurred within 2-3 days of the > >> birth? > There is no hard and fast rule about the interval between birth and > christening. It seems to vary by parish, and in some it can be two > months afterwards. In general the child would normally be baptised in > the parents' parish of residence for the time being. > > HTH > > Anne > > > > ==== MORAY Mailing List ==== > " Reply All " ........Please, please, please, when replying to a > posted message make sure that the reply is sent to the list and not > just the sender of the message. This is done by clicking " Reply All > " Thank you ;-) > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >