Anne wrote....... Inshoch is easy enough to find, about a mile north-east of Auldearn, and in the parish of Auldearn. In the 1841 census there were just two households at Inshoch, which suggests to me that Inshoch was a tenanted farm on an estate, certainly not an estate in its own right. ------- I wrote to Anne off-list but want to include what I found today so no one else looks for this....or may have an interest as several farms are listed. According to "The National Archives of Scotland" an entry exists dated 1825 entitled "Plan of the estates of Brodie, Inshoch and Penick, property of William Brodie". "Leyhill" (a farm) listed within Dyke and Moy. I also have to say to the powers responsible for the libindx a big thank you! Had it not been for your index, would not have had any clue as to where these people were from. Many thanks to Anne for providing further information on this family. Sherry

As far as I know, my Calder's were from Nairnshire but have not been able to follow all of the family. There was an Isabella born to a James Calder in 1754 Nairn, Nairnshire, two years after the marriage below. I have not been able to do anything with her. My Calder family begins with James Calder who married Katharine MacCurrach (Keathiren McQuirch) in 1752 Nairn (and in this record they were not proclaimed married). At the time that James "married" Katharine, he was residing in Auldearn, Nairnshire and Katharine in Nairn, Nairnshire. At the time their children were baptized (1754-1765), mothers were not listed on most records that I viewed. As such, much of my research is based on assumption, i.e., witnesses at christening records, a timeline as to whom was born at what time versus who was married at what time, guilty by association, etc. :) Of course, nothing is cast in stone as this entire family could have went unrecorded......yet another variable that has to be considered. All I know with certainty is that my 4th great, James Calder was born in Nairn (on his death record), he married Janet MacIntosh (listed on the death record of his daughter Anne Calder), had 9 documented children and emigrated to Canada in 1832 (land deed dated December 1832 records James "lately from Scotland"). His son William, buried at the Cedar Creek Cemetery (North Dumfries, Waterloo, Ontario), is listed as being a "Native of Nairn". His daughter, Isabella who married James Forsyth from Duffus is buried at the Gore Cemetery (Clanbrassil, Oneida Twp., Haldimand, Ontario), listed as being "Native of Nairnshire". Anything past James Calder is a gray area...........but it certainly has been fun trying to solve it! Sherry

Gavin wrote: At the risk of being boring, can I point out once again that labels like "Nairn, Nairn" (for which we have to thank the IGI) are ambiguous.... You are never "boring".......force of habit.......will take me some time to condition myself :) Sherry

Sherry, A delayed action response to your various postings about Calders. I wonder if you would recognise this Calder? Isabella Calder gave birth to a daughter, Mary, in 1797 in Bellie parish.She was given the surname Kemp as she was said to be a daughter of a soldier, William Kemp. I have a note that suggests Isabella died post-1855 and that her birthplace was given as Rathven.(Should have checked that out before responding to you;sorry.) Mary later married Francis Jamieson , also in Bellie, and died there in may 1881. Could Isabella be one of your Calder family? Tom C. Graham > Still plugging away with my Calder family from Nairn (descendents of James > Calder / Katharine MacCurrach (sic)) and am now working on their > great-granddaughter, Helen Rose. > > Helen Rose married Alexander Pirie / Pirrie in 1851 Auldearn, Nairn. > > Alexander's parents were William Pirie and Isabella Watson. This family > (Pirie) in Enzie, Banff; William a crofter there. > > According to the death records found at sp, both William Pirrie and > Isabella > Watson died in Enzie but Rathven is included in parenthesis. > > Would the proper entry for place of death read "RATHVEN, ENZIE, BANFF" or > "ENZIE, RATHVEN, BANFF"? I am guessing Rathven first but I am unfamiliar > with Banff (this is the first of my research interests who located to or > were from this area)? > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content > by the SmallWorld MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the SmallWorld MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---------------------------------------------------------------

Sherry wrote: >I am now working on the Ross family who married into my Calder family from >Nairn. > >Anne Ross, daughter of Alexander Ross and Isabel Watson, married into my >Calder family by way of John Calder in 1830 Nairn, Nairn. > > At the risk of being boring, can I point out once again that labels like "Nairn, Nairn" (for which we have to thank the IGI) are ambiguous. The name "Nairn" actually applies to three separate places. There is the town or Burgh of Nairn, the Parish of Nairn (which includes the town, but also covers some of the surrounding countryside), and the County of Nairn, or Nairnshire. These distinctions are worth preserving. >.... > >Does anyone know anything about this particular area? Would Layhill be a >name of a farm on an estate called Inshoch?? > > Do you know which parish these places were in? I cannot see them anywhere in the landward part of the Parish of Nairn. Gavin Bell

> According to libindx, her father Alexander died in 1830 at > Layhill but his > wife, Isabel Watson, is referred to as wife of Alexander Ross > farmer at > Inshoch on her death entry, also in 1830 (does not name place > of death). > Does anyone know anything about this particular area? Would > Layhill be a > name of a farm on an estate called Inshoch?? I think that is highly unlikely. Inshoch is easy enough to find, about a mile north-east of Auldearn, and in the parish of Auldearn. In the 1841 census there were just two households at Inshoch, which suggests to me that Inshoch was a tenanted farm on an estate, certainly not an estate in its own right. Layhill is a different matter. It isn't listed in either Dyke or Auldearn in 1841, or anywhere at all in 1881. The reference to Layhill in the IGI can clearly be discounted because it is a 'submitted' entry, it doesn't name the parish (*) and the date of birth given for Alexander Ross, son of Alexander Ross and Isabel(la) Watson is six months later than the date of birth given in the other two 'submitted' entries for him. (*) The omission of the parish from any baptism or banns entry in the IGI instantly tells you that the rest of the place name is unreliable, and hence that the whole entry is suspect. This is because the records of baptisms and banns before 1855 were kept by the churches, where the parish was the most important geographical unit. The sole reliable reference, so far, to Layhill is the LIBINDX one to Alexander's gravestone in Dyke Kirkyard. Even that is a transcription and should be checked. Does Layhill have to be a house? Could Alexander have died out of doors on Lay Hill, wherever that may have been? However SP does have baptisms for ten children, some in Dyke and some in Auldearn. It looks as if the family moved from the parish of Dyke in the County of Moray to the parish of Auldearn in the County of Nairn some time between the baptism of Mary in 1792 and that of James in 1794. I suggest (1) have a look at the baptisms on SP and see if they list the parents' residences (2) have a look at son Alexander's 1856 death certificate and see if there is any reason why someone might have submitted a birth for him naming Layhill (3) (get someone to) have a look at the Valuation Rolls for Dyke and Auldearn to find out which estate Inshoch belonged to and (if it is listed at all) whether Layhill was in either of these parishes, and if so to which estate it belonged. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Anne

Sherry wrote: >Thank you Gavin and Anne for your help.........I fear that I will have to >redo much as I do not refer to a county as a "shire" if a Parish is included >in the equation...........ooops. > > Blame the IGI. >I imagine since the deaths were recorded within the Enzie registration >district, I enter as such. > I think that's probably the safest thing to do. Although if you do manage to trace anyone before 1855 (start of civil registration) or 1835 (start of Old Parish Registers for the quoad sacra parish of Enzie) you should probably list people as from "Rathven, Banffshire" or "Bellie, Moray", together with a note to the effect that the administrative boundaries have been subject to change. Incidentally, this revision of boundaries continues. In 1974, the old counties were absorbed into new "Regions" (the mantra was then "big is beautiful"). Enzie, Rathven etc thus became part of Grampian Region. The Regional setup was in turn abolished in 1995, with the re-establishement (although with different boundaries) of some of the old counties. So there is now, once more, an "Aberdeenshire", which includes all of the former county of Kincardineshire, and about half of Banffshire, and a new version of the county of Moray, which includes the rest of Banffshire. And I recently read a press report that suggested moves towards combining some cointies into larger and more efficient groupings ..... I think that revising local government boundaries is in the nature of a hobby for the parliaments in Edinburgh and London. It takes their minds off the things they should be doing, but are failing to. Fortunately, as most records of use to genealogists are indexed according to the parish and county boundaries as they were from 1891 to 1974, we can generally ignore all these later shiftings of the deckchairs on the sinking ship. Gavin Bell

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: hillbilly205 Surnames: Ellis Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general/914.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi there, Hope this email gets to you and it hasn't changed. Your William Ellis's parents John & Helen are my husbands 3rd Great Grandparents. We have quite a lot of info on the family. Feel free to contact us. hills@no8wireless.co.nz Regards Alison Hill Cambridge, NZ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

I am now working on the Ross family who married into my Calder family from Nairn. Anne Ross, daughter of Alexander Ross and Isabel Watson, married into my Calder family by way of John Calder in 1830 Nairn, Nairn. According to libindx, her father Alexander died in 1830 at Layhill but his wife, Isabel Watson, is referred to as wife of Alexander Ross farmer at Inshoch on her death entry, also in 1830 (does not name place of death). Anne's brother, Alexander, made a name for himself in Canada and some of his letters are published on the net. An excerpt from one of his letters to his sister Henrietta Rannie. "I would wish to recall our youthful hours, our harmless pastimes, the follies and foibles of younger days, and the many thoughtless and innocent amusements, as well as agreeable hours we all spent on the flowery greens of Inchcask! Why is fate so hard-hearted as to divide us so far apart, and subject us to so much trouble and anxiety in this terrestrial world of briars and thorns." Does anyone know anything about this particular area? Would Layhill be a name of a farm on an estate called Inshoch??

Thank you Gavin and Anne for your help.........I fear that I will have to redo much as I do not refer to a county as a "shire" if a Parish is included in the equation...........ooops. I imagine since the deaths were recorded within the Enzie registration district, I enter as such. I do include details from these records in my source citations. From what I have read, probably the best way to handle it. If you do not mind, will include the links that you sent. As always, your knowledge is very much appreciated.

Information I have about my Murray Ancestors is; John Murray - b. date unk, from Murrayshire, Scotland m. Anie Bell Morrison b. date unk from Stornoway, Lewis Island Next on the paper is Alexander George Murray - b. 1845 [I researched and found census where it states he was born in NOVA SCOTIA] m. Elizabeth Roberts His son is Alexander Murray b. Sept. 30, 1871 - in Portland OR - d. Dec. 7, 1936, SanDiego CA m. Ida Belle Bridges His Son is (My Grandfather) Richard Maurice Murray [or Maurice Richard Murray] b. 1908 - Seattle WA - d. SanDiego CA m. Eva Likes My query is - can anyone conect any of their info to mine. Thank you, Debra

Sherry wrote: >... > >Would the proper entry for place of death read "RATHVEN, ENZIE, BANFF" or >"ENZIE, RATHVEN, BANFF"? > >... > > As well as the links I previously posted about Enzie/Rathven, I should also have mentioned: http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/countyandparish.html This gives some overall background to the apparent muddle in the parishes, and some (fictitious, but entirely possible) examples of how these oddities can affect the archival records of people who lived there. Gavin Bell

Sherry wrote: > >Would the proper entry for place of death read "RATHVEN, ENZIE, BANFF" or >"ENZIE, RATHVEN, BANFF"? > Neither! Whatever we make of the "Enzie" and "Rathven" dimensions (of which more below) the first thing to say is that neither Enzie nor Rathven are in "Banff" - they are in BanffSHIRE. "Banff" is the name of a Royal Burgh and also the name of a parish which includes the town and a relatively small area of the surrounding countryside. Along with some 20-odd other parishes, they are grouped together to form the County known as Banffshire. This distinction between town, parish and county is really a very easy (and fairly important!) one to grasp, but one that seemsto elude the creators of the IGI who consistently spread confusion by using the one name "Banff" to refer to all three. As regards Enzie and Rathven, I would refer you to my attempts to disentangle these at: http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/Rathven/index.html http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/Enzie/index.html http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/Bellie/index.html On each of these pages, click on the link for "Historical Geography" for the general background and see also "Census" and "Church Records" for the small print of some of the archival implications. Depending on precisely when your ancestors were where, you may find that they need to be listed as living in "Enzie, Banffshire", "Enzie, Moray" or "Rathven, Banffshire". Gavin Bell

Hi All : I was in touch with Jan a few years ago, however since then her address has changed. I was wondsering if anyone on the list has been corresponding with her and could give me her new address. TIA. Stewart Gammie. AESFHS - 7021

Goldie: As far as I have been able to trace, my MacCurrach's were from Nairn. They also went by the surname of MacPherson. As Jane (on this list) kindly pointed out a few years back, MacPherson is an alias of MacCurrach or vice versa. Honestly, the surname varies in spellings, i.e., McUrrich, McCurich, (even found one McUrigh) etc. and I think Jane had it as MacVurich. In researching this surname in Nairn, I have found instances where a person was married as a MacCurrach and then had children under MacPherson as well as MacCurrach. All I can tell you is that I believe that my Katharine MacCurrach was christened in 1723 Nairn to William MacCurrach. In creating a timeline, her mother may have been Isabella MacBain (mother was not listed on the baptismal entry). William and Isabella married in 1719 Nairn, Nairn; however, a William MacCurrach had two children (no mother listed) prior to this marriage date. Since James Calder and Katharine MacCurrach's first child (and I assume this as well, mother not listed on the baptism) was Isabel in 1754, I assume I have the correct pairing...........so many assumptions when you go back and no way to prove any of it. With regard to Enzie, am looking for Pirie / Pirries's. Sherry

As I remember things there was a Chapel of Ease established at Enzie for the convenience of members of Rathven Parish in that area. In due course of time it became a Parish in its own righr. There are Parish Churches at both Rathven and Enzie. IACS

Still plugging away with my Calder family from Nairn (descendents of James Calder / Katharine MacCurrach (sic)) and am now working on their great-granddaughter, Helen Rose. Helen Rose married Alexander Pirie / Pirrie in 1851 Auldearn, Nairn. Alexander's parents were William Pirie and Isabella Watson. This family (Pirie) in Enzie, Banff; William a crofter there. According to the death records found at sp, both William Pirrie and Isabella Watson died in Enzie but Rathven is included in parenthesis. Would the proper entry for place of death read "RATHVEN, ENZIE, BANFF" or "ENZIE, RATHVEN, BANFF"? I am guessing Rathven first but I am unfamiliar with Banff (this is the first of my research interests who located to or were from this area)?

I'm interested in Katharine McCurrach....I have a McCurrach family from Enzie as well........Helen/Ellen McLeod m Wm McCurrach23 Jun 1854. I am wondering if there is a connection between Wm and Katharine? Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry" <wiccanpt2@netzero.net> To: <MORAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:35 AM Subject: [MORAY] Enzie or Rathven or both > Still plugging away with my Calder family from Nairn (descendents of James > Calder / Katharine MacCurrach (sic)) and am now working on their > great-granddaughter, Helen Rose. > > Helen Rose married Alexander Pirie / Pirrie in 1851 Auldearn, Nairn. > > Alexander's parents were William Pirie and Isabella Watson. This family > (Pirie) in Enzie, Banff; William a crofter there. > > According to the death records found at sp, both William Pirrie and > Isabella > Watson died in Enzie but Rathven is included in parenthesis. > > Would the proper entry for place of death read "RATHVEN, ENZIE, BANFF" or > "ENZIE, RATHVEN, BANFF"? I am guessing Rathven first but I am unfamiliar > with Banff (this is the first of my research interests who located to or > were from this area)? > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

> Would the proper entry for place of death read "RATHVEN, > ENZIE, BANFF" > or > "ENZIE, RATHVEN, BANFF"? I am guessing Rathven first but I am > unfamiliar > with Banff (this is the first of my research interests who > located to or > were from this area)? That's not a straightforward question. The parish of Enzie overlaps with both Rathven and Bellie, and the boundaries don't seem to have been constant over time, so there is no 'correct' answer. Fullarton's Gazetteer says that Enzie was erected as a quoad sacra parish out of Rathven and Bellie in 1836. 'Quoad sacra' means that it was a parish only so far as religious matters were concerned, but from 1855 to 1936 it was also a registration district for civil registration of births, marriages and deaths. So as far as statutory certificates are concerned, Enzie and Rathven were mutually exclusive. See Gavin Bell's account of the historical geography of Enzie at http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/Enzie/index.html for fuller details. I generally duck the issue by recording it simply as 'Enzie, Banffshire'. If you want to include Rathven, I'd suggest that it would come between Enzie and Banffshire rather than before Enzie, as Enzie is only part of Rathven rather than the other way round. Anne

Hi Patrick Only 1 George Dunbar was born in Nairn(shire) between 1860 and 1900. He was born in Nairn in 1899 and was the son of John P G Dunbar and Elsie Fraser who in 1901 were living at 10 Virginia Terrace, Nairn. John was a Court House Keeper. Elsie was born c 1874 in Grantown on Spey in Morayshire (according to 1901 Census). The remains of his war service records are available to view on Ancestry. As far as I can tell he was not in the Seaforths but he is probably too young for your Thomas's father? There are a number of Dunbar families in Nairn, one of which is landed gentry viz Sir Frederick George Dunbar born circa 1876 Auldearn, Nairn "a landed proprietor" farmer living at Auchnacloich and married to a Mary born in Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick dunbar" <dunbarhistory@btinternet.com> To: <moray@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 8:46 PM Subject: [MORAY] An interesting Nairn tale? > > Sorting through old files I came across the following information from a > gentleman who is no longer with us. > > Some of the writing is difficult to decipher, so when reading my notes > please bear this in mind. > > Thomas Fraser DUNBAR was born in Edinburgh in 1913. He attended George > Heriot's School, served in the Royal Navy as a Writer, became a Petty > Officer, was awarded the BEM and was Mentioned in Despatches. He married > Thora Phyliss GEEVES. There were no children of the marriage, and Thomas > believed he was the last of his line. > > Thomas's father George DUNBAR, possibly born in Nairn, was an RSM in the > Seaforth Highlanders just before the outbreak of the 1914-18 war. His > un-named mother may have beeb born in Dingwall. > > Thomas wrote the following - > > 'Understand early 19th. century there were two brothers, one an absolute > rogue who pillaged the countryside. The other one ecclesiastical high > links > in his church in Nairn who never failed to inform the world of his > infamous > brother. In the end the rogue cut his brother's throat on the steps of his > church in Nairn.' > > Such a story must be part of local legend. Has anyone heard of it? Does > anyone have details of the family? > > Patrick. R. L. Dunbar > Organiser, Dunbar Family Society, UK > Member, Aberdeen & NE Scotland FHS. Member Guild of One-Name Studies. > Email - dunbarATone-name.org (Replace AT with @) > Web Page, family history - www.dunbarfamilysociety.org.uk > Web Page, Art - www.debbiedunbar.net > Skypename - pibrochpat > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MORAY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >