As the unfortunate who asked the question, I would just like to thank everyone for their contributions/ suggestions. I never to think to look at the archives, which were very informative and gave some useful links. Whilst my grandfather was born in Blaenavon (1894), his father was born in Kilgeddin (1866) and his father was born in Skenfrith (1822), I suspect his father was born in Herefordshire (although he farmed a now derelict farm overlooking the village), so was English. My grandson, on the other hand, was born in Cardiff, even though my father and I were born in Huddersfield (very much in England!) and my daughter in Hull (even more so). Thanks again to all, Graham Phillips

Hi Ann, Would you like a choice of weapons? ;-) Kevin, Co Cork _________________________________________________________________ Share folders without harming wildlife! http://www.communicationevolved.com/en-ie/

In preparation for a trip to England and Wales, I've been trying to figure out the GRO and the Family Records Office from their web sites. Perhaps someone can provide some answers to questions that I still have. 1. it seems that any request for records will take 4 days to receive. Do they have any records that can been seen without such a waiting period (ie on the spot)? 2. both offices seem to have the same records for BDM. What differences are there between the offices? 3. How much do the offices charge for copies of records? The cost for online requests were clear (7GBP per record) but I couldn't tell if in-person lookups were the same.

On 4/24/07 1:28 AM, "glyndavies47@aol.com" <glyndavies47@aol.com> wrote: > Geographically Monmouthshire has never been anywhere except in Wales. There are those who disagree, but as Ann says, that is a question already dealt with in spades in the archives. However, it should also be pointed out that even for those of us who have never considered Monmouthshire to be part of England, there are plenty of official records which refer to it as such. In some cases that's because the record-keeper considered it to be part of England, as Thomas mentions, but in many cases, it's just ignorance. This is common here in the U.S., where many census documents show my Monmouthshire ancestors to have come from "England" and it also happens in U.K. records from time to time. Speaking of which, On 4/23/07 10:13 PM, "MJen512444@aol.com" <MJen512444@aol.com> wrote: > I suppose that Henry Tudor becoming King of the British Isles might answer > the last question. I explain it to Americans, but also have to remind my British friends, that not everything British is English. Great Britain includes England, Wales, Scotland, and the Isle of Man, as I recall, and when one adds Northern Ireland, it becomes the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." The Act of Union of 1806 created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and it was changed to "Northern Ireland" after 1922, when 26 of Ireland's 32 Counties gained their independence. So don't worry, Monmouthshire isn't the only place where confusion arises regarding national boundaries. For Kevin: the reason we usually refer people to the archives on this subject is not born of laziness or a desire to avoid the question. It's because when it comes up, everyone feels compelled to pass along every conflicting and contradictory piece of information they've picked up, until the list members get weary of the deluge. And one of the strengths of a list like this comes to light when those who really want to read all those details and haven't seen them a dozen times over, can read the archives to their heart's content. It's just better all around. And please forsake challenging our beloved and beleaguered List Admin, lest thou find thyself set upon by her faithful supporters. :-) -- We will not forget! www.remember-9-11.com www.ciarancummings.com

To be helpful to new and old researchers, a reminder that for whatever misguided reason, the LDS Family History Library decided to place Monmouthshire under "England" in its on-line catalog and other <familysearch.org> sites. Monmouthshire is not found in the "Wales" listings, so searching for ancestors under "Wales" on the FHL sites won't turn them up. Sally

Dear Colleagues, In 1950, when I was a student traveling to Wales to find information on my forebears, I stopped for a productive afternoon at the Monmouthshire Record Office, which I recall at that time was in Newport. Someone can enlighten me on that. When departing, I chatted congenially with the director of the office, who said emphatically that Monmouthshire was an English county. Back then it was always "Wales and Monmouthshire" implying some distinction. The "Wales and Monmouthshire" term left Monmouthshire somewhere alone, not really a part of Wales, but also not part of anything else, somewhat dangling as a probable part of England, since England was the closest country next door. There was absolutely no doubt about it in his mind that Monmouthshire was English. But he was clearly an Englishman, so I suspected he had biases, and I kept my mind open for other opinions. I have since been overwhelmed with the scholarly opinion that Monmouthshire is indeed a Welsh county, geographically, genetically, and historically. And of course now it is part of Wales. But I am nevertheless simply delighted when I look for records of Monmouthshire and find them in English databases and atlases where the rest of Wales is explicitly, perhaps emphatically excluded. This is not uncommon. Therefore when I find an English database, I always search it for Monmouthshire records. So if Englishmen are motivated to include Monmouthshire in their research and publication interests, let's let them believe it is an English county. Thomas Roderick (Rhydderch) Bar Harbor, Maine USA

Tanya, Sorry, what was the name of the town? My great aunt was Florence Rogers, she married Joseph Price and went to live in Maesteg where she ran a pub called the Garn Inn. She at one time lived on Church Street, Rhymney and I have often wondered if that was where the Price family came from. sarah p.s. all of the Rogers kids were baptized at St Mary's __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

I have just looked at a birth for 1968 name Mary Smith (not real name) it gave Christian name and mothers surname which was also Smith (no husband, I knew she was not married at that time) then the volume and page number The page number was lightly crossed thru and another longer num written at the side of it in a different hand and pen For curiosity I looked at another name John Jones, where the mothers maiden is also Jones the same as the childs and it was also crossed thru and another number written there, also different pen and writing Checked again another name for a third time, same thing ditto Does anyone please know why this should be? Could it mean the child was later adopted? Marianne

OK I am going to come a bit heavy handed now and end this thread because we are just repeating what is already in the archives. I recommend everyone to go to the archives http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/MONMOUTHSHIRE.html and take a look at the messages that are there. They go back as far as 1999 even though the list was started before that but some archives do not seem to have survived the change to new software. Anyway, take a look and see just how many subjects have been discussed. You never know you might find someone who has information on your ancestors. Ann Macey Without hot water in Newport Gwent ----- Original Message ----- From: <glyndavies47@aol.com> To: <gm.p@bigfoot.com>; <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? > Graham, > > Anyone born in the old county of Monmouthshire is welsh by birth. The > confusion only comes about as a result of Monmouthshire being included in > the Oxford circuit for legal administration purposes. Geographically > Monmouthshire has never been anywhere except in Wales. > > Glyn Davies > > Born and bred in Monmouthshire and Welsh through and through. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: graham.phillips1@ntlworld.com > To: monmouthshire@rootsweb.com > Sent: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 9.09PM > Subject: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? > > > Not sure if this is strictly on topic, but it does seem relevant. > > I am aware that, over the centuries, Monmouthshire has been in both > England > and Wales (but not at the same time!). > > I have searched the internet, without success, to get some ideas as to the > dates the national boundary changed, to see whether particular ancestors > of > mine were English or Welsh. > > Does anyone have the definitive information on this, or can point me in > the > right direction? > > Thanks, > Graham Phillips > (born in Yorkshire, so definitely English!) > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wales has never been one unified country in the past. A collection of warlike tribes. No one Prince had power over all Wales. A pilgrimage to St David's was viewed with the same risk as one to the holy lands, the tribes were so warlike. King Edward one of the greatest Kings of England, the hammer of the Scots even he found it difficult to bring the Welsh to heel. The Welsh were more concerned with tribal and family feuds. ref: Llewellyn ap Gruffydd , always quarrelling and breaking oaths. Good reading "The Age of Chivaly" by Arthur Bryant. The word Welsh is derived from Latin for slave. www.batesplace.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: monmouthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:monmouthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of MJen512444@aol.com Sent: 24 April 2007 05:14 To: monmouthshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? I suppose that Henry Tudor becoming King of the British Isles might answer the last question. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 21/04/2007 11:56 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 21/04/2007 11:56

Graham, Anyone born in the old county of Monmouthshire is welsh by birth. The confusion only comes about as a result of Monmouthshire being included in the Oxford circuit for legal administration purposes. Geographically Monmouthshire has never been anywhere except in Wales. Glyn Davies Born and bred in Monmouthshire and Welsh through and through. -----Original Message----- From: graham.phillips1@ntlworld.com To: monmouthshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 9.09PM Subject: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? Not sure if this is strictly on topic, but it does seem relevant. I am aware that, over the centuries, Monmouthshire has been in both England and Wales (but not at the same time!). I have searched the internet, without success, to get some ideas as to the dates the national boundary changed, to see whether particular ancestors of mine were English or Welsh. Does anyone have the definitive information on this, or can point me in the right direction? Thanks, Graham Phillips (born in Yorkshire, so definitely English!) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I suppose that Henry Tudor becoming King of the British Isles might answer the last question.

There are loads and loads of messages about this subject in the list archives http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/MONMOUTHSHIRE.html Scroll down and click on either search the Monmouthshire archives or Browse and take a look back over several interesting exchanges. Ann Macey List Admin who knows she was born in Wales but also knows where her ancestors were born... Hmmm

Apologies Graham....I take it back. Yeah, check out Archives! ;-) Kevin. http://www.geocities.com/mckennakevin/index.html?1171910163734 www.kevccfc.tribalpages.com This has to be copied and pasted into your address bar... when you are there use password seaborne (for my tree) _________________________________________________________________ Message offline contacts without any fire risk! http://www.communicationevolved.com/en-ie/

Well if we look in the past......... was Wales actually a country then? A principality ....does that constitute a country? Perhaps these official documents presumably by 2 people show that they were confused as some are today. Personally I couldn't care less if Mon. was deemed the 33rd county of Ireland! OK OK Time to withdraw........ I bow to your superior knowledge. Have a good week. Kevin. http://www.geocities.com/mckennakevin/index.html?1171910163734 www.kevccfc.tribalpages.com This has to be copied and pasted into your address bar... when you are there use password seaborne (for my tree) >From: Jean Smith <luddite.jean@tiscali.co.uk> >Reply-To: monmouthshire@rootsweb.com >To: monmouthshire@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:22:16 +0100 > >Possibly not. But for administrative purposes, >Monmouthshire has been both English & Welsh. My >husband's grandfather, born in Chepstow in 1880, >has England on some official documents, and Wales >on the other. Historical fact has no bearing on >what anyone wishes was the truth, Welsh folklore heroes notwithstanding. >:-) > >Personally, I consider Monmouthshire to be part >of Wales, but that wasn't the original question. > >-Jean. > >At 21:28 23/04/2007, you wrote: > >Perhaps the non-Welsh who came to Monmouthshire (Gwent) thought they were >in > >England but I doubt that the true Welsh ever doubted that they were in > >Wales. -- Twm Siôn Cati > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jean Smith" <luddite.jean@tiscali.co.uk> > >To: <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM > >Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? > > > > > > > Others would disagree. See > > > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Gaz1868.html for a potted > > > history of Monmouthshire. > > > > > > -Jean. > > > > > > At 21:12 23/04/2007, you wrote: > > >>Hi Graham, Monmouthshire was never in England. I believe the confusion > > >>came > > >>about from the family search.org site that still has Mon. in England. > > >> > > >>Best regards,Kevin. Co Cork Ireland > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >email to MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with > >the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > >subject and the body of the message > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - > >Release Date: 22/04/2007 20:18 > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Share folders without harming wildlife! http://www.communicationevolved.com/en-ie/

Possibly not. But for administrative purposes, Monmouthshire has been both English & Welsh. My husband's grandfather, born in Chepstow in 1880, has England on some official documents, and Wales on the other. Historical fact has no bearing on what anyone wishes was the truth, Welsh folklore heroes notwithstanding. :-) Personally, I consider Monmouthshire to be part of Wales, but that wasn't the original question. -Jean. At 21:28 23/04/2007, you wrote: >Perhaps the non-Welsh who came to Monmouthshire (Gwent) thought they were in >England but I doubt that the true Welsh ever doubted that they were in >Wales. -- Twm Siôn Cati > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jean Smith" <luddite.jean@tiscali.co.uk> >To: <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:25 PM >Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? > > > > Others would disagree. See > > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Gaz1868.html for a potted > > history of Monmouthshire. > > > > -Jean. > > > > At 21:12 23/04/2007, you wrote: > >>Hi Graham, Monmouthshire was never in England. I believe the confusion > >>came > >>about from the family search.org site that still has Mon. in England. > >> > >>Best regards,Kevin. Co Cork Ireland > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >email to MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with >the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - >Release Date: 22/04/2007 20:18

This may very well have been discussed several times........ for some it's a first time. If all followed that line perhaps this list would become very very quiet. As for others who might disagree......since when did the Welsh ever manage to reclaim land from the English? Jeez, I'm sorry I joined in now! ;-) Best regards, Kevin, Chontae Corcaigh. (neither England or Wales) http://www.geocities.com/mckennakevin/index.html?1171910163734 www.kevccfc.tribalpages.com This has to be copied and pasted into your address bar... when you are there use password seaborne (for my tree) >From: "Graham Sheppard" <graham@grahamsheppard.org.uk> >Reply-To: monmouthshire@rootsweb.com >To: <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> >Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:20:40 +0100 > > May I suggest that the archives of this list are looked at, as the >topic has been discussed several times. >Regards >Graham S > >-----Original Message----- >From: monmouthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com >[mailto:monmouthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of kevin mccormack >Sent: 23 April 2007 21:13 >To: MONMOUTHSHIRE@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? > >Hi Graham, Monmouthshire was never in England. I believe the confusion >came about from the family search.org site that still has Mon. in >England. > >Best regards,Kevin. Co Cork Ireland > > > >http://www.geocities.com/mckennakevin/index.html?1171910163734 > >www.kevccfc.tribalpages.com This has to be copied and pasted into >your >address bar... when you are there use password seaborne (for my >tree) > > > > > > >From: "Graham" <graham.phillips1@ntlworld.com> > >Reply-To: Graham <gm.p@bigfoot.com>, monmouthshire@rootsweb.com > >To: <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? > >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:09:13 +0100 > > > >Not sure if this is strictly on topic, but it does seem relevant. > > > >I am aware that, over the centuries, Monmouthshire has been in both > >England and Wales (but not at the same time!). > > > > I have searched the internet, without success, to get some ideas as > >to the dates the national boundary changed, to see whether particular > >ancestors of mine were English or Welsh. > > > >Does anyone have the definitive information on this, or can point me in > > >the right direction? > > > >Thanks, > >Graham Phillips > >(born in Yorkshire, so definitely English!) > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Message offline contacts without any fire risk! http://www.communicationevolved.com/en-ie/

Others would disagree. See http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Gaz1868.html for a potted history of Monmouthshire. -Jean. At 21:12 23/04/2007, you wrote: >Hi Graham, Monmouthshire was never in England. I believe the confusion came >about from the family search.org site that still has Mon. in England. > >Best regards,Kevin. Co Cork Ireland

May I suggest that the archives of this list are looked at, as the topic has been discussed several times. Regards Graham S -----Original Message----- From: monmouthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:monmouthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of kevin mccormack Sent: 23 April 2007 21:13 To: MONMOUTHSHIRE@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? Hi Graham, Monmouthshire was never in England. I believe the confusion came about from the family search.org site that still has Mon. in England. Best regards,Kevin. Co Cork Ireland http://www.geocities.com/mckennakevin/index.html?1171910163734 www.kevccfc.tribalpages.com This has to be copied and pasted into your address bar... when you are there use password seaborne (for my tree) >From: "Graham" <graham.phillips1@ntlworld.com> >Reply-To: Graham <gm.p@bigfoot.com>, monmouthshire@rootsweb.com >To: <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:09:13 +0100 > >Not sure if this is strictly on topic, but it does seem relevant. > >I am aware that, over the centuries, Monmouthshire has been in both >England and Wales (but not at the same time!). > > I have searched the internet, without success, to get some ideas as >to the dates the national boundary changed, to see whether particular >ancestors of mine were English or Welsh. > >Does anyone have the definitive information on this, or can point me in >the right direction? > >Thanks, >Graham Phillips >(born in Yorkshire, so definitely English!) >

Hi Graham, Monmouthshire was never in England. I believe the confusion came about from the family search.org site that still has Mon. in England. Best regards,Kevin. Co Cork Ireland http://www.geocities.com/mckennakevin/index.html?1171910163734 www.kevccfc.tribalpages.com This has to be copied and pasted into your address bar... when you are there use password seaborne (for my tree) >From: "Graham" <graham.phillips1@ntlworld.com> >Reply-To: Graham <gm.p@bigfoot.com>, monmouthshire@rootsweb.com >To: <monmouthshire@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [MON] Monmouthshire - England or Wales? >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:09:13 +0100 > >Not sure if this is strictly on topic, but it does seem relevant. > >I am aware that, over the centuries, Monmouthshire has been in both England >and Wales (but not at the same time!). > > I have searched the internet, without success, to get some ideas as to >the >dates the national boundary changed, to see whether particular ancestors of >mine were English or Welsh. > >Does anyone have the definitive information on this, or can point me in the >right direction? > >Thanks, >Graham Phillips >(born in Yorkshire, so definitely English!) > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MONMOUTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Message offline contacts without any fire risk! http://www.communicationevolved.com/en-ie/