Pre-Vatican the Catholic Church did not recognize civil marriage. Such a civil marriage was not only unrecognized, but the children are illegitimate. The Catholic participants were denied the Sacraments until they resolved the issue. 88 percent of pre-Vatican II Catholics were married in the church. A trancript of Catholic Marriage Annulments is at http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week431/cover.html I found St. Sebastian's Church has posted 'Frequently Asked Questions About Annulments' at URL http://www.stsebastianrc.org/annulments.htm. You will see notations in the sacramental register for "attempted civil marriage" on the entry for the sacrament of matrimony. That is only for the date and place of the Church sanctioned marriage. If you encounter such a note you will then need to look in earlier civil registers. However, the civil marriage may have taken place in a different state. Gretna Green is the historical village on the border of Scotland and England and has led to the term "Gretna Green" as applied to a place such as Yuma AZ, Belleville IL, etc. where couples could elope. I still have to follow through on several marriages. I have the civil record for my grandmother's first marriage which was ended by his death, I have the church record for the third marriage which notes that her second marriage was annulled by the ecclesiastical court (gives his name and the date of the annulment. That means that there may be a church record of her first and second marriages and a civil record for the third that I need to locate. Remember, I am so old that the Church law as I learned it at Loretto Academy was pre-Vatican. Ellen "rbozzay" <rbozzay@earthlink.net> wrote: >Hi, Ellen > >I am interested in your note about a civil marriage being blessed. Can you >expand on that? >I may have a couple who fit into this category. They raised all their >children as Catholic. >But they were married by a Justice of the Peace. It was 1879 when the civil >marriage took place. > >I think others on the list may also like more info on this if you have it. > >Thanks! > >Laura > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <enalibof@netscape.net> >To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:28 PM >Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Finding possible divorce records > > >> >> >> Some of the pre-Vatican II Church laws that were in effect may account for >some of the issues you are encountering. >> The marriages contracted civilly would have had a license. Civil marriages >could be "blessed" and appear in the sacramental register of the parish for >the date of the church sacrament. There has always been "confidential" >marriage in which no public record is generated. That remains true today in >California. >> Ellen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Georgia Clark <georgia@corpsie.com> wrote: >> >> >Dear Sharon, >> > >> >There is information about where to inquire about divorce records (as >well as other records) on Dave Lossos' website for St. Louis Genealogy: >> > >> >http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/dluseful.htm >> > >> >The St. Louis Public Library has indices for marriages in ST. Louis but >it seems that not all marriages that took place in a Catholic Church show up >on the index. At least that has been my experience recently. >> > >> >http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/geneinfo.htm >> > >> >Click on item # 5 to see what is available and # 13 to email the library >( Reference Desk). >> > >> >Georgia >> > >> >SReif1956@comcast.net wrote: >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I learned that my grandfather was married once before he married my >grandmother in 1924. I even have a photo of the "happy couple" that was >taken in St. Louis, so I was told. But, here's the dilemma. Most of the >members of my family think that Grandpa did not divorce this woman. They >were told that she simply did not like living away from her home and >parents, so he "sent her packing", and was never heard from again. >> >> >> >> I have not yet found a wedding date from church records, but I am >ordering a few films from St. Stephens of Hungary and St. Mary of Victories >(since these were the Hungarian parishes of the time). Is there a city >index of divorces on file with the clerk's office? I was wondering if just >maybe there was one that I could cut some time off my research. >> >> >> >> The story goes that when my grandmother was told that she was to die of >cancer, the visiting priest said that she needed to renounce my grandfather >for his first "unholy" marriage. She refused (but rumor has it that she did >rip up her marriage license to Grandpa in a fit of rage one day). He asked >if she had attended mass every Sunday. She said that she spent all her time >through the years getting the 10 kids ready for mass, she did not have time >for herself, but prayed at home. The priest told her that she would go to >hell for these decisions of hers. She replied, "Father, I'll see you >there!". >> >> >> >> So, you see, I'd really like to know if dear Grandpa deserved this kind >of insensitive thinking. I'd like to think that he had the good sense to >get a legal separation from this woman. But I do not know whether they even >got married in a church, although this woman is decked out in a fine wedding >gown in the photo. I do not want to mention her name for her privacy, but it >is known to the family. >> >> >> >> In the early 1920s what were the rules in St. Louis for divorces and >separations? Could you just walk away from a marriage, even if it only >lasted a few months? Lots of questions to ask and research to do here. >> >> >> >> Would appreciate anyone's knowledge in this area. Thanks, >> >> >> >> Sharon Bognar Reif >> >> >> >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >> >> For tips on researching St. Louis Church Records: >http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/churchrecords.htm >> > >> > >> >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >> >To ask for a lookup or volunteer to do acts of genealogical kindess, >visit Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness at http://www.RAOGK.org. >> > >> > >> >> __________________________________________________________________ >> Thank you for using Netscape. >> >> >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >> If you are researching the Irish in St. Louis, you might want to have a >look at Diane Shaw's websites: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/Irshnstl.htm >and http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/KerryPatch.htm >> > > > >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

Hi Pre-Vatican II, the Catholic Church did not recognize civil marriage WHEN ONE OR BOTH OF THE CONTRACTING PARTIES WAS CATHOLIC. Bob Doerr in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks ----- Original Message ----- From: <enalibof@netscape.net> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Finding possible divorce records > Pre-Vatican the Catholic Church did not recognize civil marriage. Such a civil marriage was not only unrecognized, but the children are illegitimate. The Catholic participants were denied the Sacraments until they resolved the issue. 88 percent of pre-Vatican II Catholics were married in the church. A trancript of Catholic Marriage Annulments is at > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week431/cover.html > I found St. Sebastian's Church has posted 'Frequently Asked Questions About Annulments' at URL http://www.stsebastianrc.org/annulments.htm. > You will see notations in the sacramental register for "attempted civil marriage" on the entry for the sacrament of matrimony. That is only for the date and place of the Church sanctioned marriage. > If you encounter such a note you will then need to look in earlier civil registers. However, the civil marriage may have taken place in a different state. Gretna Green is the historical village on the border of Scotland and England and has led to the term "Gretna Green" as applied to a place such as Yuma AZ, Belleville IL, etc. where couples could elope. > I still have to follow through on several marriages. I have the civil record for my grandmother's first marriage which was ended by his death, I have the church record for the third marriage which notes that her second marriage was annulled by the ecclesiastical court (gives his name and the date of the annulment. That means that there may be a church record of her first and second marriages and a civil record for the third that I need to locate. > Remember, I am so old that the Church law as I learned it at Loretto Academy was pre-Vatican. > Ellen > > "rbozzay" <rbozzay@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >Hi, Ellen > > > >I am interested in your note about a civil marriage being blessed. Can you > >expand on that? > >I may have a couple who fit into this category. They raised all their > >children as Catholic. > >But they were married by a Justice of the Peace. It was 1879 when the civil > >marriage took place. > > > >I think others on the list may also like more info on this if you have it. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Laura > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: <enalibof@netscape.net> > >To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:28 PM > >Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Finding possible divorce records > > > > > >> > >> > >> Some of the pre-Vatican II Church laws that were in effect may account for > >some of the issues you are encountering. > >> The marriages contracted civilly would have had a license. Civil marriages > >could be "blessed" and appear in the sacramental register of the parish for > >the date of the church sacrament. There has always been "confidential" > >marriage in which no public record is generated. That remains true today in > >California. > >> Ellen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Georgia Clark <georgia@corpsie.com> wrote: > >> > >> >Dear Sharon, > >> > > >> >There is information about where to inquire about divorce records (as > >well as other records) on Dave Lossos' website for St. Louis Genealogy: > >> > > >> >http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/dluseful.htm > >> > > >> >The St. Louis Public Library has indices for marriages in ST. Louis but > >it seems that not all marriages that took place in a Catholic Church show up > >on the index. At least that has been my experience recently. > >> > > >> >http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/geneinfo.htm > >> > > >> >Click on item # 5 to see what is available and # 13 to email the library > >( Reference Desk). > >> > > >> >Georgia > >> > > >> >SReif1956@comcast.net wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi, > >> >> > >> >> I learned that my grandfather was married once before he married my > >grandmother in 1924. I even have a photo of the "happy couple" that was > >taken in St. Louis, so I was told. But, here's the dilemma. Most of the > >members of my family think that Grandpa did not divorce this woman. They > >were told that she simply did not like living away from her home and > >parents, so he "sent her packing", and was never heard from again. > >> >> > >> >> I have not yet found a wedding date from church records, but I am > >ordering a few films from St. Stephens of Hungary and St. Mary of Victories > >(since these were the Hungarian parishes of the time). Is there a city > >index of divorces on file with the clerk's office? I was wondering if just > >maybe there was one that I could cut some time off my research. > >> >> > >> >> The story goes that when my grandmother was told that she was to die of > >cancer, the visiting priest said that she needed to renounce my grandfather > >for his first "unholy" marriage. She refused (but rumor has it that she did > >rip up her marriage license to Grandpa in a fit of rage one day). He asked > >if she had attended mass every Sunday. She said that she spent all her time > >through the years getting the 10 kids ready for mass, she did not have time > >for herself, but prayed at home. The priest told her that she would go to > >hell for these decisions of hers. She replied, "Father, I'll see you > >there!". > >> >> > >> >> So, you see, I'd really like to know if dear Grandpa deserved this kind > >of insensitive thinking. I'd like to think that he had the good sense to > >get a legal separation from this woman. But I do not know whether they even > >got married in a church, although this woman is decked out in a fine wedding > >gown in the photo. I do not want to mention her name for her privacy, but it > >is known to the family. > >> >> > >> >> In the early 1920s what were the rules in St. Louis for divorces and > >separations? Could you just walk away from a marriage, even if it only > >lasted a few months? Lots of questions to ask and research to do here. > >> >> > >> >> Would appreciate anyone's knowledge in this area. Thanks, > >> >> > >> >> Sharon Bognar Reif > >> >> > >> >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >> >> For tips on researching St. Louis Church Records: > >http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/churchrecords.htm > >> > > >> > > >> >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >> >To ask for a lookup or volunteer to do acts of genealogical kindess, > >visit Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness at http://www.RAOGK.org. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> __________________________________________________________________ > >> Thank you for using Netscape. > >> > >> > >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >> If you are researching the Irish in St. Louis, you might want to have a > >look at Diane Shaw's websites: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/Irshnstl.htm > >and http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/KerryPatch.htm > >> > > > > > > > >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. > Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register > Act now to get a personalized email address! > > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > RootsWeb forbids posting of copyrighted material without permission of the author. You can read RootsWeb's Acceptable Use Policy at http://rootsweb.com/rootsweb/aup.html. > > >