Our grandfather, James Curry, had a brother Hugh Curry, who married Henrietta Alreda Bader in about 1854 in St. Louis. They seem to have had some St. Clair connection as well. Any chance of a connection here? Joyce Curry --- JAMES O BRASHER <jims505@msn.com> wrote: > Madelyn: > > Keep looking and I'll bet you find something.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com> > To: > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:23 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis > -High and BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Hi Jim. > > Sounds like it wasn't my ggfathers saloon- there > was one at 9th and Biddle, > and another previously at 719 S. Main Street, > which was nearby. I have a > street atlas of the city from around the 1880s on > CD, but it wouldn't cover > later periods. > > I'm not sure how many of the Baders in the > missouri area are related. I > think there may be more than I know, but I only > know the direct line. However, > the fact that Matthais settled in St. Louis and > there were already Baders living > there, makes me suspect he had kin there. There's > another group in > St.Genevieve, nearby. I've not located the > connections, partly because our family line > ends in Germany with the burning of church > records in 1791. To my > knowledge, I would not be related to the man who > ran the Art store, but then Matthais > had 9-11 children, and most lived to have > children. While the family moved to > St. Clair, it is possible that some made their > way back to the big city. > I'll post to the list if I find more connections. > > I'll pull out that atlas too, it's possible I can > track down that saloon. > > Madelyn > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis > -High and Biddle > StreetSaloon Date: 6/19/2007 3:43:11 P.M. Central > Daylight Time From: > _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com>_ > (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>) > To: > _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>_ > > > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>) > Sent on: > > Hi Madelyn: > The Saloon I'm looking for Shows up in the 1920 > census as being owned by a > McQuillen relative who liked to shun the spotlight > of openness. It was > labeled, "The High and Biddle Street Saloon," by > the census taker. I am almost > certain it was on or near the corner of 11th and > Biddle. I have been told by > family members that its main products were, > prescription liquors and non > prescription pharmaceuticals. I can not prove > these assertions, but would be very > surprised if they were not true. Seems there was a > lot of that kind of thing > going on during that time period. > > By any chance are you related to the Bader > gentleman who owned "Bader Art > Supplies" back in the 1950s on Olive then moved > near 12th and Locust about > 1951? A very fine gentleman, whose first name > escapes me at the moment, who > employed knot headed boys attending high school > to deliver those same supplies to > offices in downtown St Louis.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com>> > > To: > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:58 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis > -High and Biddle > StreetSaloon > > > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and > Biddle, in the 1870s. I > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was > operated, for some time, > by > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was > another, earlier, on what was at > the time called main street, but I've not yet > learned the name. > > Madelyn B > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: > [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 > 3:16:03 P.M. Central > Daylight > Time From: > _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com>>_ > > > (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com>>) > To: > > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>>_ > > > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) > , > > _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>_ > > > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) > > Sent on: > Dennis: > > Would it be possible to find what the exact > address of the High and Biddle > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think > in a more modern time period > it > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, > but I'm not sure.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dennis > Northcott<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org>>> > > To: > > Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com>>> > ; > > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-s<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-s> > > tlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:tlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:41 AM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. > Louis -Tracking addresses > > > Dear Joe, > > We have a variety of resources here at the > Missouri Historical Society > Library and Research Center to help you research > the history of a > business and/or a particular piece of property in > St. Louis City and County. > > You can use reverse directories (i.e., city > directories, red books, blue > books, and red-blue books) to determine what > business or person occupied > a particular street address. In these reverse > directories you can look > up a street name alphabetically, and then look up > the street number. > > Recently we've indexed a variety of published > and manuscript sources > that can help you determine what business or > person occupied a > particular address. For example, we've indexed a > large collection of St. > Louis business letterheads (mostly dated > 1860s-1920s). Most of the > sources we've indexed thus far relate to St. > Louis City addresses, > rather than St. Louis County. > > We also have a collection of maps and atlases, > some of which provide the > name of the person or business who owned a > particular piece of land. > Whipple and Sanborn fire-insurance maps, dated > circa 1870s-1940s can be > helpful. > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! 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Howdy Gary: Seems to me I ran across this incident in the distant past in connection with Tommy Hayes of Wellston who was connected to the Cuckoo gang. I'm just curious enough to look back to see if I can find that story.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: G STOLTMAN<mailto:stopan@msn.com> To: mo-stlouis-metro<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon SReif, Jim, et. al Has anyone heard of John Regina or the Regina family from StL. In May, 1928, my g-uncle Fred Shofstall a.k.a. Freddy Shaw, a bootlegger, gambler, "slugger," and burglar of some note in KCMO was ambushed and murdered by a StL crew of three - one of which was Regina. Old Freddie was able to shoot John Regina before he bit the dust and Regina died after staggering down an alleyway. Gary Stoltman

SReif, Jim, et. al Has anyone heard of John Regina or the Regina family from StL. In May, 1928, my g-uncle Fred Shofstall a.k.a. Freddy Shaw, a bootlegger, gambler, "slugger," and burglar of some note in KCMO was ambushed and murdered by a StL crew of three - one of which was Regina. Old Freddie was able to shoot John Regina before he bit the dust and Regina died after staggering down an alleyway. Gary Stoltman Mercerville, NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: SReif1956@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:19 AM To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon I'll chime in on this conversation....my ancestors....all deceased by now..were members of the Black Hand. My great uncle was known as "Tony the Hand". I have many news articles on the familia. Vince Spicuzza and Tony Russo were cousins of my grandfather. A number of cases regarding shootings, extortion, etc. involved familia. Most of the time they just wanted to enjoy their fruit and produce businesses, however, some people thought it might be nice to use the trucks in the evening hours to transport other goods. An uncle of mine was shot in the kidney as mistaken identity....his brother was meant for the bullet. Lots of stories to tell with this group, and many were taken to the grave, I am sure. The list of our family names goes on: Busalaki (Busalacchi), Russo, Spicuzza, Bova, Mercurio, Gelardi, Giardina, Lombardo, Ciantro, Longo, Catanzaro, Salerno, etc. La Familia in St. Louis is all legitimate now, rest assured. I am understanding and following the federal court case in Chicago with the current Lombardo/Calabrese/Marcello families going on as we speak. Too bad some of these guys could not find another line of work. SReif -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com> > Kathy: > > Just as an item of information, I would say that the Black hand group was then > known as today's mafia. Al Capone imported a group of folks from Italy and they > were named the Green ones, because they were greenhorns fresh off the boat from > Sicily. It was their job to take over the rackets in southern Illinois, but did > not have much luck because they forgot to ask the Irish who were firmly > established in the area. Tis a very interesting story with much gore, murder, > blood and heart ache for these innocents who had the very same thoughts of > success. Needless to say, they were not at all welcomed to the neighborhood of > St Louis and had to be escorted out of St Louis by the city's finest. Popular > names connected to the Green Ones were Russo and Spicuzza.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net> > To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon > > > Yeah, the article is pretty interesting. It does say this: > "St. Louis detectives in making their identification stated that the > presumption was that Rocco had incurred the disfavor of an Italian group in > his neighborhood, probably in matters concerned with bootlegging, and had > been lured to the Illinois side on a purported tour of various roadhouses on > the Pontoon road." > > Someone called the undertaker and said, "Rocco is dead in Mitchell, Ill.," > was the message. "Get the body and give him a good send-off." > > There were three shootings prior to his... all Italian fella's. The last > sentence of the one article says "The police also assert that of late a > black-hand group has been active in its extortion practices against > bootleggers and Rocco may have fallen victim to their animosity." > > I read someplace else about how they use to make the saloon guys give them > part of their profits. > Kathy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>> > To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Hi Kathy: > > You may want to remember that this area we are looking at, was the area that > The Kerry Patch and little Italy were adjacent to each other. I'm sure it > wasn't My McQuillens who got uncle Mariano, but it might have been Al Capone > on one of his visits to St Louis during his attempt at taking over the area > when he wouldn't even use his real name for fear of getting rubbed out by > those Irish guys.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy > Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > To: > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stl > ouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a > saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do > I > have any information about it other than it was named in an article about > his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I > have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post > Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would > love to know more about it. > > Thanks, > Kathy Greifzu > > kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cm > ailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > <SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol. > com>>> > To: > <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-st > louis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle > StreetSaloon > > > > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. > I > > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > > time, by > > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what > was > > at > > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > > > Madelyn B > > > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City > of > > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > > Daylight > > Time From: > _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims5 > 05@msn.com>>_ > > (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:j > ims505@msn.com>>) To: > > > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto: > _dpn@mohistory.org>>_ > > > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistoryorg%3Cma > ilto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) , > > _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo- > stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>_ > > > > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailt > o:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) > Sent on: > > Dennis: > > > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > > Biddle > > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > > period it > > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not > sure.----Jim > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > om<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-reques > t@rootsweb.com>> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > om> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi S.: Now, why in the world would you be in a rowdier part of town? A fine young lady such as yourself. However, should you find yourself in such an environment, just remember; "Duck." Now I remember, it was guy Lombardo who waved the musical baton. Still, it sounds like a very Fine bunch of uncles and aunts ye have there hanging from your family tree, so to speak. And yes indeed, I remember the latter part of the thirties was a rather commotional time frame too. And who can forget those tailor made cigarettes? My mother used to say I was gonna die poor broke and lonely if I ever started smoking. Tis de ja vue all over again for me as well. I still visit Calvary every time I'm in St Louis. I too believe the reason my family may have strayed a bit was because of a lack of sound judgment in picking their friends. My uncle Bow used to say he never met a fella named Jim Beam he didn't like. My grandfather used to say the same thing too in even a louder voice. I think that your older folks must have it right, in my family it was the county sheriff that was causing all that trouble for the McQuillen brothers; he just wouldn't leave well enough alone and let those McQuillens get along about their business. "Say, weren't those Smith and Jones boys just hung down in Potosi last month?"----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: SReif1956@comcast.net<about:blank> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<about:blank> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] St. Louis Underworld Relatives Jim, My great aunts never let us stand in front of the windows at night....but never told us why. I don't think I need to worry about gunshots in my direction, unless I am in a bad part of town where everyone could be a target regardless of your name. One of my great aunts told us that there were nights she never slept because of fear of "someone" who might come calling at night for her husband.

Jim, My great aunts never let us stand in front of the windows at night....but never told us why. I don't think I need to worry about gunshots in my direction, unless I am in a bad part of town where everyone could be a target regardless of your name. One of my great aunts told us that there were nights she never slept because of fear of "someone" who might come calling at night for her husband. In Chicago, Joey "the Clown" Lombardo was not a band leader...just a leader. Jimmy "the Man" Marcello (who happens to be the father-in-law of my friend) and the Calabrese brothers all considered themselves leaders. Many of my deceased relatives considered themselves "leaders" which is why they did not make many friends of other "leaders". Seems people just did not want to play nice in the 20s and 30s. My mother could tell stories from her days as a kid, and the whispers of relatives about other relatives, and who the kids should not follow down the street, etc. Some young males of the family dressed very well, and everyone knew how they got the money to pay for those new threads, and the fancy cigarettes that they smoked. My grandfather and his brothers went for a joy ride one evening with their produce truck, returning in the wee hours of the morning with bullet holes down the side of the truck. Rumor has it that my gr grandmother gave her 6 boys "what for" and told ! them th ey'd be 6 feet under like their father if they kept up those kind of excursions. Some relatives had elaborate funerals (one story written about a cousin who had $20,000 in flowers at the event), and others had just screaming mourners and prcessions of old women in long black veils, which was the fashion in the old Sicilian families. Widows wore black for years after the death of their spouses, and once someone died, no one spoke of them again, but plenty made visits to the gravesites in Calvary, and still do. All that's left are the old photos of "the gang", some pieces of clothing and Uncle Tony's handguns (a 38 and a 45) now in the hands of a cousin who keeps them under lock and key. Once in awhile, stories are told, and then the arguements start about "that's not what really happened!", then the hush, and remarks about how we need to keep those stories from circulating because those deceased members of the family were "not really at fault, just happened to get in the way of the sheriff", or he "hung out with the wrong folks", or "when you are hungry you can be forced to do desperate things". La Familia still supports it's members years after they are dead and gone, regardless of what the newpapers and death certificates state....they were all innocent....so to speak. No such thing as bad apples, just unfortunate decisions that were made by persons not thinking straight, according to the older family members. and the comment I like the most, "the guy was not very fair and w! as goin g to get it anyway, might as well have been then rather than later." Then a long hush, and the young deceased are not spoken about again,,,,,until the next brave and curious family member happens to bring up the subject again. Now, the familia is as normal as any Smith or Jones on the block....at least I think so. S. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com> > Hi S.: > > I am using only the initial to your first name only because you may need > anonymity to conceal your identity. Having said this, you are granted full > celebrity status as a royal figure and relative of the St Louis underworld, a > position I thought only myself and one other very famous figure on the list > occupied. > > I wonder if this special status garners us any special awards, maybe a Mayor's > banquet, or perhaps a governor's Ball. Darn, it sure is pesky being so famous. I > certainly recognize your family names. One of my family names was, William the > "Bow Wow," who liked gambling, Horse racing, illegal wire services and illicit > liquor, among other things. > > I too have been following a bit of the doings in Chicago, off and on, and > noticed the name "Lombardo." Wasn't he a band leader back in the 1940s? > > I part with this advice; if you hear gun shots, immediately drop to the floor, > it always pays to be vigilant.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SReif1956@comcast.net<mailto:SReif1956@comcast.net> > To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 7:18 AM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon > > > I'll chime in on this conversation....my ancestors....all deceased by > now...were members of the Black Hand. My great uncle was known as "Tony the > Hand". I have many news articles on the familia. Vince Spicuzza and Tony Russo > were cousins of my grandfather. A number of cases regarding shootings, > extortion, etc. involved familia. Most of the time they just wanted to enjoy > their fruit and produce businesses, however, some people thought it might be > nice to use the trucks in the evening hours to transport other goods. An uncle > of mine was shot in the kidney as mistaken identity....his brother was meant for > the bullet. Lots of stories to tell with this group, and many were taken to the > grave, I am sure. The list of our family names goes on: Busalaki (Busalacchi), > Russo, Spicuzza, Bova, Mercurio, Gelardi, Giardina, Lombardo, Ciantro, Longo, > Catanzaro, Salerno, etc. La Familia in St. Louis is all legitimate now, rest > assured. > > I am understanding and following the federal court case in Chicago with the > current Lombardo/Calabrese/Marcello families going on as we speak. Too bad some > of these guys could not find another line of work. > > SReif > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>> > > Kathy: > > > > Just as an item of information, I would say that the Black hand group was > then > > known as today's mafia. Al Capone imported a group of folks from Italy and > they > > were named the Green ones, because they were greenhorns fresh off the boat > from > > Sicily. It was their job to take over the rackets in southern Illinois, but > did > > not have much luck because they forgot to ask the Irish who were firmly > > established in the area. Tis a very interesting story with much gore, > murder, > > blood and heart ache for these innocents who had the very same thoughts of > > success. Needless to say, they were not at all welcomed to the neighborhood > of > > St Louis and had to be escorted out of St Louis by the city's finest. > Popular > > names connected to the Green Ones were Russo and Spicuzza.----Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kathy > Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > > To: > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stl > ouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High > andBiddleStreetSaloon > > > > > > Yeah, the article is pretty interesting. It does say this: > > "St. Louis detectives in making their identification stated that the > > presumption was that Rocco had incurred the disfavor of an Italian group > in > > his neighborhood, probably in matters concerned with bootlegging, and had > > been lured to the Illinois side on a purported tour of various roadhouses > on > > the Pontoon road." > > > > Someone called the undertaker and said, "Rocco is dead in Mitchell, Ill.," > > was the message. "Get the body and give him a good send-off." > > > > There were three shootings prior to his... all Italian fella's. The last > > sentence of the one article says "The police also assert that of late a > > black-hand group has been active in its extortion practices against > > bootleggers and Rocco may have fallen victim to their animosity." > > > > I read someplace else about how they use to make the saloon guys give them > > part of their profits. > > Kathy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "JAMES O BRASHER" > <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@ > msn.com>>> > > To: > <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-st > louis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:40 PM > > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > > > > Hi Kathy: > > > > You may want to remember that this area we are looking at, was the area > that > > The Kerry Patch and little Italy were adjacent to each other. I'm sure it > > wasn't My McQuillens who got uncle Mariano, but it might have been Al > Capone > > on one of his visits to St Louis during his attempt at taking over the > area > > when he wouldn't even use his real name for fear of getting rubbed out by > > those Irish guys.----Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kathy > > > Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@ > charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>>> > > To: > > > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stl > <mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cm > ailto:mo-stl> > > > ouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:ouis-metro > @rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:27 PM > > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > > > > Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a > > saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor > do > > I > > have any information about it other than it was named in an article > about > > his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. > I > > have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis > Post > > Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I > would > > love to know more about it. > > > > Thanks, > > Kathy Greifzu > > > > > kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cm > <mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@cha > rter.net%3Cm> > > ailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > > <SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol< > mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:S > aeeIa@aol>. > > com>>> > > To: > > > <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-st > <mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cm > ailto:mo-st> > > > louis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:louis-met > ro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>>> > > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM > > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle > > StreetSaloon > > > > > > > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the > 1870s. > > I > > > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > > > time, by > > > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what > > was > > > at > > > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > > > > > Madelyn B > > > > > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] > City > > of > > > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > > > Daylight > > > Time From: > > > _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims5 > <mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cm > ailto:_jims5> > > 05@msn.com<mailto:05@msn.com>>>_ > > > > > (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:j > <mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmail > to:j> > > ims505@msn.com<mailto:ims505@msn.com>>>) To: > > > > > > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto< > mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.or > g%3Cmailto>: > > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>>>_ > > > > > > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cma > <mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org% > 3Cma> > > ilto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) , > > > > > _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo< > mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3C > mailto:_mo>- > > > stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:stloui > s-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>>_ > > > > > > > > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailt > <mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cm > ailt> > > o:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) > > Sent on: > > > Dennis: > > > > > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > > > Biddle > > > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > > > period it > > > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not > > sure.----Jim > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > <mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@ > rootsweb.c> > > > om<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-reques > <mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-reques> > > t@rootsweb.com<mailto:t@rootsweb.com>>> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > > of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > <mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@ > rootsweb.c> > > om> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body > > of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > om> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > om> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ellen: Toot's story gets mighty mysterious as it gets longer and parallels two of my ancestors. First off, granddad McQuillen was in the City workhouse in 1930 according to the census, but I haven't found out why. Did the two boys know one another? And second, Toots was sent to France in 1917 the year my grandmother, Mabel Vie's brother Oliver was sent to France and later killed in action near Soissons. Did they know each other? What a great mystery. Your place in History is sealed in stone, except for the on going struggle for Royalty of Ireland that exists between the two of us.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: enalibof@netscape.net<mailto:enalibof@netscape.net> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon I just read S's reference to "bad company" which was the reason Toots spent time in the workhouse. Although he did plead guilty to attempted burglary. The online military records showed that Toots enlisted in 1917 by falsifying his birth year from 1900 to 1899. He was dishonably discharged due to fraud. However, a year later the US Army took him back and sent him to France. Ellen

I just read S's reference to "bad company" which was the reason Toots spent time in the workhouse. Although he did plead guilty to attempted burglary. The online military records showed that Toots enlisted in 1917 by falsifying his birth year from 1900 to 1899. He was dishonably discharged due to fraud. However, a year later the US Army took him back and sent him to France. Ellen ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.

Jim, The St Louis Globe-Democrat, Extra Final, Saturday morning, December 28, 1929 headline reads: 'TOOTS' CLARK MYSTERIOUSLY SHOT IN AUTO CHASE'. The story detailed his short, colorful life including a burglary conviction and workhouse stint of six months, connections with bombing, extortion and murder. The wounds were not considered life-threatening but blood poisoning developed and he died as duly reported on the front page on 9 Feb 1930. He was a Union Business Agent. Ellen Hi Ellen: It could be that you might qualify, considering Toots went with his boots on, but we'd have to hear the story first to be sure. It does sound promising so far though. Would dearly like to see that portrait of Uncle Toots. That name, "Toots Clark," just naturally sings.----Jim ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@roo tsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.

Jim, don't I qualify on the basis of my uncle, Toots Clark? His shooting made a headline in the Globe Democrat.They even had a picture of the bullt-ridden car in addition to his portrait. Ellen ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.

The Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center at 225 South Skinker Blvd. holds a wealth of unique genealogical resources. I will be offering two tours of the Library and Research Center, focusing on genealogical research. These tours will take place Monday, June 25, and Saturday, June 30. Each tour will begin at 9:30 am, and will last approximately one hour. Researchers are welcome to stay after the tour to do some research. I and other members of the library and archives staff will be available to provide assistance. Reservations for these tours are required. To make a reservation, call 314-361-9017. Sincerely, Dennis Northcott Associate Archivist for Reference Missouri Historical Society

Hi Dennis: What are you folks offering around July 15th? I plan to meet my newly discovered Brown family down in Cold Springs, MO on that day and was planning to drop in on the folks up in St Louis a couple of days later.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Northcott<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:05 PM Subject: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] Genealogy tours of the Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center The Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center at 225 South Skinker Blvd. holds a wealth of unique genealogical resources. I will be offering two tours of the Library and Research Center, focusing on genealogical research. These tours will take place Monday, June 25, and Saturday, June 30. Each tour will begin at 9:30 am, and will last approximately one hour. Researchers are welcome to stay after the tour to do some research. I and other members of the library and archives staff will be available to provide assistance. Reservations for these tours are required. To make a reservation, call 314-361-9017. Sincerely, Dennis Northcott Associate Archivist for Reference Missouri Historical Society ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ellen: It could be that you might qualify, considering Toots went with his boots on, but we'd have to hear the story first to be sure. It does sound promising so far though. Would dearly like to see that portrait of Uncle Toots. That name, "Toots Clark," just naturally sings.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: enalibof@netscape.net<mailto:enalibof@netscape.net> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon Jim, don't I qualify on the basis of my uncle, Toots Clark? His shooting made a headline in the Globe Democrat.They even had a picture of the bullt-ridden car in addition to his portrait. Ellen ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'll chime in on this conversation....my ancestors....all deceased by now...were members of the Black Hand. My great uncle was known as "Tony the Hand". I have many news articles on the familia. Vince Spicuzza and Tony Russo were cousins of my grandfather. A number of cases regarding shootings, extortion, etc. involved familia. Most of the time they just wanted to enjoy their fruit and produce businesses, however, some people thought it might be nice to use the trucks in the evening hours to transport other goods. An uncle of mine was shot in the kidney as mistaken identity....his brother was meant for the bullet. Lots of stories to tell with this group, and many were taken to the grave, I am sure. The list of our family names goes on: Busalaki (Busalacchi), Russo, Spicuzza, Bova, Mercurio, Gelardi, Giardina, Lombardo, Ciantro, Longo, Catanzaro, Salerno, etc. La Familia in St. Louis is all legitimate now, rest assured. I am understanding and following the federal court case in Chicago with the current Lombardo/Calabrese/Marcello families going on as we speak. Too bad some of these guys could not find another line of work. SReif -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com> > Kathy: > > Just as an item of information, I would say that the Black hand group was then > known as today's mafia. Al Capone imported a group of folks from Italy and they > were named the Green ones, because they were greenhorns fresh off the boat from > Sicily. It was their job to take over the rackets in southern Illinois, but did > not have much luck because they forgot to ask the Irish who were firmly > established in the area. Tis a very interesting story with much gore, murder, > blood and heart ache for these innocents who had the very same thoughts of > success. Needless to say, they were not at all welcomed to the neighborhood of > St Louis and had to be escorted out of St Louis by the city's finest. Popular > names connected to the Green Ones were Russo and Spicuzza.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net> > To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon > > > Yeah, the article is pretty interesting. It does say this: > "St. Louis detectives in making their identification stated that the > presumption was that Rocco had incurred the disfavor of an Italian group in > his neighborhood, probably in matters concerned with bootlegging, and had > been lured to the Illinois side on a purported tour of various roadhouses on > the Pontoon road." > > Someone called the undertaker and said, "Rocco is dead in Mitchell, Ill.," > was the message. "Get the body and give him a good send-off." > > There were three shootings prior to his... all Italian fella's. The last > sentence of the one article says "The police also assert that of late a > black-hand group has been active in its extortion practices against > bootleggers and Rocco may have fallen victim to their animosity." > > I read someplace else about how they use to make the saloon guys give them > part of their profits. > Kathy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>> > To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Hi Kathy: > > You may want to remember that this area we are looking at, was the area that > The Kerry Patch and little Italy were adjacent to each other. I'm sure it > wasn't My McQuillens who got uncle Mariano, but it might have been Al Capone > on one of his visits to St Louis during his attempt at taking over the area > when he wouldn't even use his real name for fear of getting rubbed out by > those Irish guys.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy > Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > To: > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stl > ouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a > saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do > I > have any information about it other than it was named in an article about > his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I > have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post > Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would > love to know more about it. > > Thanks, > Kathy Greifzu > > kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cm > ailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > <SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol. > com>>> > To: > <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-st > louis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle > StreetSaloon > > > > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. > I > > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > > time, by > > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what > was > > at > > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > > > Madelyn B > > > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City > of > > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > > Daylight > > Time From: > _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims5 > 05@msn.com>>_ > > (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:j > ims505@msn.com>>) To: > > > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto: > _dpn@mohistory.org>>_ > > > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cma > ilto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) , > > _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo- > stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>_ > > > > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailt > o:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) > Sent on: > > Dennis: > > > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > > Biddle > > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > > period it > > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not > sure.----Jim > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > om<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-reques > t@rootsweb.com>> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c > om> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi S.: I am using only the initial to your first name only because you may need anonymity to conceal your identity. Having said this, you are granted full celebrity status as a royal figure and relative of the St Louis underworld, a position I thought only myself and one other very famous figure on the list occupied. I wonder if this special status garners us any special awards, maybe a Mayor's banquet, or perhaps a governor's Ball. Darn, it sure is pesky being so famous. I certainly recognize your family names. One of my family names was, William the "Bow Wow," who liked gambling, Horse racing, illegal wire services and illicit liquor, among other things. I too have been following a bit of the doings in Chicago, off and on, and noticed the name "Lombardo." Wasn't he a band leader back in the 1940s? I part with this advice; if you hear gun shots, immediately drop to the floor, it always pays to be vigilant.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: SReif1956@comcast.net<mailto:SReif1956@comcast.net> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 7:18 AM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon I'll chime in on this conversation....my ancestors....all deceased by now...were members of the Black Hand. My great uncle was known as "Tony the Hand". I have many news articles on the familia. Vince Spicuzza and Tony Russo were cousins of my grandfather. A number of cases regarding shootings, extortion, etc. involved familia. Most of the time they just wanted to enjoy their fruit and produce businesses, however, some people thought it might be nice to use the trucks in the evening hours to transport other goods. An uncle of mine was shot in the kidney as mistaken identity....his brother was meant for the bullet. Lots of stories to tell with this group, and many were taken to the grave, I am sure. The list of our family names goes on: Busalaki (Busalacchi), Russo, Spicuzza, Bova, Mercurio, Gelardi, Giardina, Lombardo, Ciantro, Longo, Catanzaro, Salerno, etc. La Familia in St. Louis is all legitimate now, rest assured. I am understanding and following the federal court case in Chicago with the current Lombardo/Calabrese/Marcello families going on as we speak. Too bad some of these guys could not find another line of work. SReif -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>> > Kathy: > > Just as an item of information, I would say that the Black hand group was then > known as today's mafia. Al Capone imported a group of folks from Italy and they > were named the Green ones, because they were greenhorns fresh off the boat from > Sicily. It was their job to take over the rackets in southern Illinois, but did > not have much luck because they forgot to ask the Irish who were firmly > established in the area. Tis a very interesting story with much gore, murder, > blood and heart ache for these innocents who had the very same thoughts of > success. Needless to say, they were not at all welcomed to the neighborhood of > St Louis and had to be escorted out of St Louis by the city's finest. Popular > names connected to the Green Ones were Russo and Spicuzza.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon > > > Yeah, the article is pretty interesting. It does say this: > "St. Louis detectives in making their identification stated that the > presumption was that Rocco had incurred the disfavor of an Italian group in > his neighborhood, probably in matters concerned with bootlegging, and had > been lured to the Illinois side on a purported tour of various roadhouses on > the Pontoon road." > > Someone called the undertaker and said, "Rocco is dead in Mitchell, Ill.," > was the message. "Get the body and give him a good send-off." > > There were three shootings prior to his... all Italian fella's. The last > sentence of the one article says "The police also assert that of late a > black-hand group has been active in its extortion practices against > bootleggers and Rocco may have fallen victim to their animosity." > > I read someplace else about how they use to make the saloon guys give them > part of their profits. > Kathy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com>>> > To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Hi Kathy: > > You may want to remember that this area we are looking at, was the area that > The Kerry Patch and little Italy were adjacent to each other. I'm sure it > wasn't My McQuillens who got uncle Mariano, but it might have been Al Capone > on one of his visits to St Louis during his attempt at taking over the area > when he wouldn't even use his real name for fear of getting rubbed out by > those Irish guys.----Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy > Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>>> > To: > mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stl<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stl> > ouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:ouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and > BiddleStreetSaloon > > > Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a > saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do > I > have any information about it other than it was named in an article about > his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I > have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post > Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would > love to know more about it. > > Thanks, > Kathy Greifzu > > kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cm<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cm> > ailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > <SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol>. > com>>> > To: > <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-st<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-st> > louis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:louis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>>> > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle > StreetSaloon > > > > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. > I > > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > > time, by > > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what > was > > at > > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > > > Madelyn B > > > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City > of > > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > > Daylight > > Time From: > _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims5<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims5> > 05@msn.com<mailto:05@msn.com>>>_ > > (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:j<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:j> > ims505@msn.com<mailto:ims505@msn.com>>>) To: > > > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto>: > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>>>_ > > > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cma<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cma> > ilto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) , > > _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo>- > stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>>_ > > > > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailt<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailt> > o:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) > Sent on: > > Dennis: > > > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > > Biddle > > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > > period it > > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not > sure.----Jim > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c> > om<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-reques<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-reques> > t@rootsweb.com<mailto:t@rootsweb.com>>> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.c> > om> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Madelyn: Keep looking and I'll bet you find something.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and BiddleStreetSaloon Hi Jim. Sounds like it wasn't my ggfathers saloon- there was one at 9th and Biddle, and another previously at 719 S. Main Street, which was nearby. I have a street atlas of the city from around the 1880s on CD, but it wouldn't cover later periods. I'm not sure how many of the Baders in the missouri area are related. I think there may be more than I know, but I only know the direct line. However, the fact that Matthais settled in St. Louis and there were already Baders living there, makes me suspect he had kin there. There's another group in St.Genevieve, nearby. I've not located the connections, partly because our family line ends in Germany with the burning of church records in 1791. To my knowledge, I would not be related to the man who ran the Art store, but then Matthais had 9-11 children, and most lived to have children. While the family moved to St. Clair, it is possible that some made their way back to the big city. I'll post to the list if I find more connections. I'll pull out that atlas too, it's possible I can track down that saloon. Madelyn ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon Date: 6/19/2007 3:43:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time From: _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com>_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>) To: _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>_ (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>) Sent on: Hi Madelyn: The Saloon I'm looking for Shows up in the 1920 census as being owned by a McQuillen relative who liked to shun the spotlight of openness. It was labeled, "The High and Biddle Street Saloon," by the census taker. I am almost certain it was on or near the corner of 11th and Biddle. I have been told by family members that its main products were, prescription liquors and non prescription pharmaceuticals. I can not prove these assertions, but would be very surprised if they were not true. Seems there was a lot of that kind of thing going on during that time period. By any chance are you related to the Bader gentleman who owned "Bader Art Supplies" back in the 1950s on Olive then moved near 12th and Locust about 1951? A very fine gentleman, whose first name escapes me at the moment, who employed knot headed boys attending high school to deliver those same supplies to offices in downtown St Louis.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com>> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. I don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some time, by Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what was at the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. Madelyn B ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time From: _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com>>_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com>>) To: _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>>_ (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) , _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>_ (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) Sent on: Dennis: Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and Biddle Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time period it may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not sure.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Northcott<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org>>> To: Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com>>> ; mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-s<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-s> tlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:tlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -Tracking addresses Dear Joe, We have a variety of resources here at the Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center to help you research the history of a business and/or a particular piece of property in St. Louis City and County. You can use reverse directories (i.e., city directories, red books, blue books, and red-blue books) to determine what business or person occupied a particular street address. In these reverse directories you can look up a street name alphabetically, and then look up the street number. Recently we've indexed a variety of published and manuscript sources that can help you determine what business or person occupied a particular address. For example, we've indexed a large collection of St. Louis business letterheads (mostly dated 1860s-1920s). Most of the sources we've indexed thus far relate to St. Louis City addresses, rather than St. Louis County. We also have a collection of maps and atlases, some of which provide the name of the person or business who owned a particular piece of land. Whipple and Sanborn fire-insurance maps, dated circa 1870s-1940s can be helpful. Federal census records and local census records can be helpful in some cases. Esley Hamilton's inventory to historical buildings in St. Louis County is a good resource: http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html<http://www.co.st-louis.m<http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html%3Chttp://www.co.st-louis.m> o.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html<http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld<http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld> .html%3Chttp://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html>> Building permits and deeds are available at St. Louis City Hall. If you'd like to provide me with the street address you are researching, I'll do a quick check of our catalogs and indexes. However, I don't have the time to do extensive research for you, such as searching years of reverse directories. Sincerely, Dennis Northcott Associate Archivist for Reference Missouri Historical Society ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb> com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-re<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-re> quest@rootsweb.com<mailto:quest@rootsweb.com>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb> .com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com<http://www.aol.com/<http://www.aol.com%3chttp//www.aolcom/>>. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com<http://www.aol.com/>. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kathy: Just as an item of information, I would say that the Black hand group was then known as today's mafia. Al Capone imported a group of folks from Italy and they were named the Green ones, because they were greenhorns fresh off the boat from Sicily. It was their job to take over the rackets in southern Illinois, but did not have much luck because they forgot to ask the Irish who were firmly established in the area. Tis a very interesting story with much gore, murder, blood and heart ache for these innocents who had the very same thoughts of success. Needless to say, they were not at all welcomed to the neighborhood of St Louis and had to be escorted out of St Louis by the city's finest. Popular names connected to the Green Ones were Russo and Spicuzza.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High andBiddleStreetSaloon Yeah, the article is pretty interesting. It does say this: "St. Louis detectives in making their identification stated that the presumption was that Rocco had incurred the disfavor of an Italian group in his neighborhood, probably in matters concerned with bootlegging, and had been lured to the Illinois side on a purported tour of various roadhouses on the Pontoon road." Someone called the undertaker and said, "Rocco is dead in Mitchell, Ill.," was the message. "Get the body and give him a good send-off." There were three shootings prior to his... all Italian fella's. The last sentence of the one article says "The police also assert that of late a black-hand group has been active in its extortion practices against bootleggers and Rocco may have fallen victim to their animosity." I read someplace else about how they use to make the saloon guys give them part of their profits. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>> To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and BiddleStreetSaloon Hi Kathy: You may want to remember that this area we are looking at, was the area that The Kerry Patch and little Italy were adjacent to each other. I'm sure it wasn't My McQuillens who got uncle Mariano, but it might have been Al Capone on one of his visits to St Louis during his attempt at taking over the area when he wouldn't even use his real name for fear of getting rubbed out by those Irish guys.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and BiddleStreetSaloon Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do I have any information about it other than it was named in an article about his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would love to know more about it. Thanks, Kathy Greifzu kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net%3Cmailto:kgreifzu@charter.net>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com%3Cmailto:SaeeIa@aol.com>>> To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. I > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > time, by > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what was > at > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > Madelyn B > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > Daylight > Time From: _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:_jims505@msn.com>>_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com%3Cmailto:jims505@msn.com>>) To: > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>>_ > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org%3Cmailto:dpn@mohistory.org>>) , _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>>_ > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootswebcom>>) Sent on: > Dennis: > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > Biddle > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > period it > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not sure.----Jim ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In the 1880s, the place at 9th and Biddle - though there are 4 corners, it might not be the same, was the New York Hotel and Saloon. I haven't found much more though I do have a sketched pictorial atlas of the streets back then. I may have to wander down to the big city and see what stands there now. Thanks for passing on that info.. if I find out anything I will post to the list. Madleyn. ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon Date: 6/19/2007 5:28:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time From: _kgreifzu@charter.net_ (mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net) To: _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com_ (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com) Sent on: Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do I have any information about it other than it was named in an article about his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would love to know more about it. Thanks, Kathy Greifzu kgreifzu@charter.net ----- Original Message ----- From: <SaeeIa@aol.com> To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. I > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > time, by > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what was > at > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > Madelyn B > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > Daylight > Time From: _jims505@msn.com_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com) To: > _dpn@mohistory.org_ > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org) , _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com_ > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com) Sent on: > Dennis: > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > Biddle > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > period it > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not sure.----Jim ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Hi Jim. Sounds like it wasn't my ggfathers saloon- there was one at 9th and Biddle, and another previously at 719 S. Main Street, which was nearby. I have a street atlas of the city from around the 1880s on CD, but it wouldn't cover later periods. I'm not sure how many of the Baders in the missouri area are related. I think there may be more than I know, but I only know the direct line. However, the fact that Matthais settled in St. Louis and there were already Baders living there, makes me suspect he had kin there. There's another group in St.Genevieve, nearby. I've not located the connections, partly because our family line ends in Germany with the burning of church records in 1791. To my knowledge, I would not be related to the man who ran the Art store, but then Matthais had 9-11 children, and most lived to have children. While the family moved to St. Clair, it is possible that some made their way back to the big city. I'll post to the list if I find more connections. I'll pull out that atlas too, it's possible I can track down that saloon. Madelyn ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon Date: 6/19/2007 3:43:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time From: _jims505@msn.com_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com) To: _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com_ (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com) Sent on: Hi Madelyn: The Saloon I'm looking for Shows up in the 1920 census as being owned by a McQuillen relative who liked to shun the spotlight of openness. It was labeled, "The High and Biddle Street Saloon," by the census taker. I am almost certain it was on or near the corner of 11th and Biddle. I have been told by family members that its main products were, prescription liquors and non prescription pharmaceuticals. I can not prove these assertions, but would be very surprised if they were not true. Seems there was a lot of that kind of thing going on during that time period. By any chance are you related to the Bader gentleman who owned "Bader Art Supplies" back in the 1950s on Olive then moved near 12th and Locust about 1951? A very fine gentleman, whose first name escapes me at the moment, who employed knot headed boys attending high school to deliver those same supplies to offices in downtown St Louis.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. I don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some time, by Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what was at the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. Madelyn B ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time From: _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com>_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>) To: _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>_ (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org>) , _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>_ (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>) Sent on: Dennis: Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and Biddle Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time period it may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not sure.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Northcott<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org>> To: Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com<mailto:Joe@joelight.com%3Cmailto:Joe@joelight.com>> ; mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-s tlouis-metro@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -Tracking addresses Dear Joe, We have a variety of resources here at the Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center to help you research the history of a business and/or a particular piece of property in St. Louis City and County. You can use reverse directories (i.e., city directories, red books, blue books, and red-blue books) to determine what business or person occupied a particular street address. In these reverse directories you can look up a street name alphabetically, and then look up the street number. Recently we've indexed a variety of published and manuscript sources that can help you determine what business or person occupied a particular address. For example, we've indexed a large collection of St. Louis business letterheads (mostly dated 1860s-1920s). Most of the sources we've indexed thus far relate to St. Louis City addresses, rather than St. Louis County. We also have a collection of maps and atlases, some of which provide the name of the person or business who owned a particular piece of land. Whipple and Sanborn fire-insurance maps, dated circa 1870s-1940s can be helpful. Federal census records and local census records can be helpful in some cases. Esley Hamilton's inventory to historical buildings in St. Louis County is a good resource: http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html<http://www.co.st-louis.m o.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html<http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld .html%3Chttp://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/parks/Intro_histbld.html>> Building permits and deeds are available at St. Louis City Hall. If you'd like to provide me with the street address you are researching, I'll do a quick check of our catalogs and indexes. However, I don't have the time to do extensive research for you, such as searching years of reverse directories. Sincerely, Dennis Northcott Associate Archivist for Reference Missouri Historical Society ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb .com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com%3Cmailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-re quest@rootsweb.com>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb .com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com<http://www.aol.com/>. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Yeah, the article is pretty interesting. It does say this: "St. Louis detectives in making their identification stated that the presumption was that Rocco had incurred the disfavor of an Italian group in his neighborhood, probably in matters concerned with bootlegging, and had been lured to the Illinois side on a purported tour of various roadhouses on the Pontoon road." Someone called the undertaker and said, "Rocco is dead in Mitchell, Ill.," was the message. "Get the body and give him a good send-off." There were three shootings prior to his... all Italian fella's. The last sentence of the one article says "The police also assert that of late a black-hand group has been active in its extortion practices against bootleggers and Rocco may have fallen victim to their animosity." I read someplace else about how they use to make the saloon guys give them part of their profits. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES O BRASHER" <jims505@msn.com> To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and BiddleStreetSaloon Hi Kathy: You may want to remember that this area we are looking at, was the area that The Kerry Patch and little Italy were adjacent to each other. I'm sure it wasn't My McQuillens who got uncle Mariano, but it might have been Al Capone on one of his visits to St Louis during his attempt at taking over the area when he wouldn't even use his real name for fear of getting rubbed out by those Irish guys.----Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Greifzu<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net> To: mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and BiddleStreetSaloon Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do I have any information about it other than it was named in an article about his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would love to know more about it. Thanks, Kathy Greifzu kgreifzu@charter.net<mailto:kgreifzu@charter.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: <SaeeIa@aol.com<mailto:SaeeIa@aol.com>> To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. I > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > time, by > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what was > at > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > Madelyn B > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > Daylight > Time From: _jims505@msn.com<mailto:_jims505@msn.com>_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com<mailto:jims505@msn.com>) To: > _dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:_dpn@mohistory.org>_ > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org<mailto:dpn@mohistory.org>) , _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:_mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>_ > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com<mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com>) Sent on: > Dennis: > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > Biddle > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > period it > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not sure.----Jim ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:MO-STLOUIS-METRO-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wow, what a coincidence. My great uncle Mariano Rocca (Rocco) owned a saloon at 9th and Biddle in 1924. I have no idea what the name was nor do I have any information about it other than it was named in an article about his death when he was killed in a bootlegging incident in May of 1924. I have front page articles concerning his death from both the St. Louis Post Dispatch and the Globe Democrat. If anyone knows of this saloon, I would love to know more about it. Thanks, Kathy Greifzu kgreifzu@charter.net ----- Original Message ----- From: <SaeeIa@aol.com> To: <mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of St. Louis -High and Biddle StreetSaloon > There was a New York Hotel and Saloon at 9th and Biddle, in the 1870s. I > don't know if its what you're looking for. It was operated, for some > time, by > Matthais Bader, my ggrandfather. There was another, earlier, on what was > at > the time called main street, but I've not yet learned the name. > > Madelyn B > > ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [MO-STLOUIS-METRO] City of > St. Louis -Tracking addresses Date: 6/18/2007 3:16:03 P.M. Central > Daylight > Time From: _jims505@msn.com_ (mailto:jims505@msn.com) To: > _dpn@mohistory.org_ > (mailto:dpn@mohistory.org) , _mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com_ > (mailto:mo-stlouis-metro@rootsweb.com) Sent on: > Dennis: > > Would it be possible to find what the exact address of the High and > Biddle > Street Saloon might have been in 1920? I think in a more modern time > period it > may have been on the corner of 11th and Biddle, but I'm not sure.----Jim