http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/cholera_g.htm#How%20does%20a%20person%20get%20cholera http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact107.html http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~MOW/chap7.html I could find no mention any where of rats or mice being the cause of cholera I did find lots of information where they are used to test medicine and treatments for cholera So, maybe they can transmit it through their droppings if those get into food or water sources but I don't know if that is really the way it works or not. I think the rats and mice spread other diseases but maybe not cholera during that time. They may be guilty by association because they live in drains and sewers and in wet marshy areas quite a bit and that is a source of bad water and cholera. Hope this helps. Laura

I'm sorry this is so totally off topic but I just can't help myself. Does anyone remember Iris Needham Johansen besides me? I started Roosevelt HS with Iris in 1952,she came from the Cherokee area I think. Anyway Iris is now a well known author of fiction, her latest book in paper back is number three today on the New York Times best seller list, according to the Post Dispatch. I've never seen anything in the St. Louis new media about her coming from ST. Louis.I can't believe I am the only South Sider to remember her. She has written quite a few books and they all have done well. Is it possible this hometown celeb has gone totally unnoticed? If any of you out there remember her, run over to a book store and check out her picture on the back cover of one of her novels. There, I've done it!!! Perhaps this will spark up a slow Sunday in September. Barbara

I think the rats spread cholera (and bubonic plague, earlier) by carrying fleas from one area to another. The flea would bite an infected individual, hop a passing rat, hop off and bite a (previously) uninfected individual... --- Jims505@aol.com wrote: > What you say is very true Sharon. > > It was not known until later that uncooked shell fish from Louisiana > was a > cause too of Cholera in St Louis for many many years. I started > wondering how > imported shrimp from New Orleans made it to St Louis back in the > 1800s without > spoiling. > > Jo and I bought tons of shrimp back in the 1950s but back then there > was > refrigeration and we tended to over cook so were reasonably safe from > uncooked > fish. Forget shushi, that sounds too much like a waste product. > > I can understand how shell fish may be the cause of cholera if they > are > undercooked, shell fish being bottom feeders, but still cannot be > totally sure how > rats fit in. > > Raw sewage being dumped into the river could have caused a lot of > problems. > But how did rats spread the disease?----Jim > > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > Search the Archive of Messages for MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=MO-STLOUIS-METRO > ===== Marsha L. Ensminger searching for Westerhold/t/z in the US and ? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

You do not want to know how many rodent droppings and hairs are allowed in spices today. Bob Doerr in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks Please see http://www.rollanet.org/~bdoerr/state.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: <SReif1956@aol.com> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:10 PM Subject: [StL-Metro] RE: More Cholera > I don't know this to be totally true, but I heard that the rat droppings were > the culprit in large cities regarding Cholera. > > The rats tended to live in the filthy dirty roadway gutters (fancy sewer > systems were not invented yet in the mid 1800s) and alleyways where trash and rain > runoff and sewage usually landed. When someone used a bucket of water to mop > their wooden floors, the dirty water was thrown into the streets. The runoff > water usually went downhill to a spot where it would collect, and sometimes > seep into areas where people may be drawing their water for drinking. They > would not have know where this water originated. > > These little rat varmits ate whatever they could, and didn't bother to wash > their little paws either. Lets face it, garbage was thrown where ever people > wanted to throw it. Food scraps were sometimes used for compost for those who > knew how to use it in their small gardens, but restaurants and eateries, I am > sure did not have to follow strict guidelines when it came to cleanliness. Or > at least they did not have inspectors on their backs like they do today. I > am sure that there were dumping grounds in just about every neighborhood, > whether in the US or Europe. Rats loved that stuff, and kept coming back to where > the scraps originated...where the people were. > > Disinfectant sprays and soaps were not available like today. Rats could run > along kitchen and store shelves and leave their droppings everywhere. They > could have climbed in amongst the produce and other food stuffs and left their > calling card. By daybreak, they were snug in their holes asleep until the next > night when it was time to go looking for stuff that people threw out. Water > was not purified, unless boiled. But did people boil their drinking water? > Probably not, especially if it was drawn from a well. Sometimes people got > their water from the river, too. St. Louis is a prime spot for getting all the > water you want from 2 major rivers. But would you want to bathe in it or drink > it? Maybe some people were educated enough that they knew drinking water > needed to be purified. Others right off the boat would not have been so smart. > Just because water came from a jack pump in the kitchen tub did not mean it > was clean enough to drink. The people just followed the ways of their old > country. > > Thank goodness for the plumbing industry. God save the Jacuzzi!!! > > Sharon > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > A complete Genealogy just can't be...there's always more. > > >

I don't know this to be totally true, but I heard that the rat droppings were the culprit in large cities regarding Cholera. The rats tended to live in the filthy dirty roadway gutters (fancy sewer systems were not invented yet in the mid 1800s) and alleyways where trash and rain runoff and sewage usually landed. When someone used a bucket of water to mop their wooden floors, the dirty water was thrown into the streets. The runoff water usually went downhill to a spot where it would collect, and sometimes seep into areas where people may be drawing their water for drinking. They would not have know where this water originated. These little rat varmits ate whatever they could, and didn't bother to wash their little paws either. Lets face it, garbage was thrown where ever people wanted to throw it. Food scraps were sometimes used for compost for those who knew how to use it in their small gardens, but restaurants and eateries, I am sure did not have to follow strict guidelines when it came to cleanliness. Or at least they did not have inspectors on their backs like they do today. I am sure that there were dumping grounds in just about every neighborhood, whether in the US or Europe. Rats loved that stuff, and kept coming back to where the scraps originated...where the people were. Disinfectant sprays and soaps were not available like today. Rats could run along kitchen and store shelves and leave their droppings everywhere. They could have climbed in amongst the produce and other food stuffs and left their calling card. By daybreak, they were snug in their holes asleep until the next night when it was time to go looking for stuff that people threw out. Water was not purified, unless boiled. But did people boil their drinking water? Probably not, especially if it was drawn from a well. Sometimes people got their water from the river, too. St. Louis is a prime spot for getting all the water you want from 2 major rivers. But would you want to bathe in it or drink it? Maybe some people were educated enough that they knew drinking water needed to be purified. Others right off the boat would not have been so smart. Just because water came from a jack pump in the kitchen tub did not mean it was clean enough to drink. The people just followed the ways of their old country. Thank goodness for the plumbing industry. God save the Jacuzzi!!! Sharon

Diane, Pat et al, The Catholic marriages of St. Louis 1774-1840 is also commonly known as "Collet's Index" and covers marriages at the Basilica of St. Louis (alternatively known as Old Cathedral) from 1774 - 1840 as well as Carondelet Church for the period 1825 - 1840. The same publication is also available on fiche through a FHC and is comprised of 4 fiche. [6075774] Collet also indexed baptisms (7 fiche - 6075773) and burials (3 fiche - 6075775). Tracy in AK Pat: > > The publication "Catholic Marriages of St. Louis 1774-1840" is a St. > Louis Genealogical Publication. You can find it listed on their web page: > > http://www.stlgs.org/pubsales.shtml > > Personally, I wonder how big that publication is since it only costs > $5.00. > > Diane Shaw

What you say is very true Sharon. It was not known until later that uncooked shell fish from Louisiana was a cause too of Cholera in St Louis for many many years. I started wondering how imported shrimp from New Orleans made it to St Louis back in the 1800s without spoiling. Jo and I bought tons of shrimp back in the 1950s but back then there was refrigeration and we tended to over cook so were reasonably safe from uncooked fish. Forget shushi, that sounds too much like a waste product. I can understand how shell fish may be the cause of cholera if they are undercooked, shell fish being bottom feeders, but still cannot be totally sure how rats fit in. Raw sewage being dumped into the river could have caused a lot of problems. But how did rats spread the disease?----Jim

JIM and others, Cholera was very prevalent in the European theatre as well as the US in the 1800s. I found one of my gr grandfathers in the Cholera death index in Sicily during that time, too. People just did not wash things like we do today. And did not bathe themselves on a regular basis either. Working on the fishing boats back in Sicily, they probably thought there was not reason to wash, as they were dipping their hands in the salty water working as fisherman. Gosh, they sure must have smelled. No wonder they had to have arranged marriages. I don't think I would have come very close any man who fished all day and did not bathe. Whew! Sharon Bognar Reif

Last week when I started researching the cholera epidemic in St Louis back in the 1800s and earlier I thought I had a plan to rid the world of this horrible disease once and for all. Today I stumbled across this obscure site on the net and now I'm not sure if I should continue. I can't be sure if the author is for or against the issue, but one thing I'm certain of, I don't want to lose my tractor. (Assuming I had a tractor.)----Jim In the United States, cholera was prevalent in the 1800s but has been virtually eliminated by modern sewage and water treatment systems. A person may get cholera by drinking water or eating food contaminated with the cholera bacterium. In an epidemic, the source of the contamination is usually the feces of an infected person or rodent. The disease can spread rapidly in areas with inadequate treatment of sewage and drinking water. If not controlled by man or natural enemies, the Norway rat can easily have a population explosion. A female can mate with a male just hours after giving birth, and mating goes on between males and females all year round. The 7 to 11 young are born hairless and blind but can open their eyes at two weeks of age. They are well enough developed to leave the nest at three to four weeks of age. Females can breed at three months of age. They can have 2 to 22 young, but 7 to 11 is much more usual. Few Norway rats live out their full three years. At two years of age, females stop breeding and males are not as interested in mating. A female can have up to 12 litters a year if conditions are very good, but usually has five. It is an enduring myth that rats are smelly, vicious, and dirty, and of course could never be pets. In fact, rats may be the perfect New Millennium pet for busy families. Domestic or 'fancy' rats are clean, intelligent, affectionate, and playful. They can even be trained to use a litter box. They do not smell (as long as their habitat is kept clean), and are less likely to transmit diseases or parasites than a dog. The bad news about pet rats is that they don't live very long -- only about two to four years. Taung Ming-Lin has become something of a legend in the annals of habitat preservation. But before he achieved legendary status, the Taiwanese immigrant was a simple farm owner in Kern County, California. When his property was threatened by fire and he used a tractor to create a fire break to save his house, he disturbed the habitat of the Tipton rat, an endangered species. Federal agents confiscated his tractor, arrested him and charged him with destroying the rats’ habitat. This case was the direct affect of the Endangered Species Act (ESA), which was signed into law in 1973 by then-President Richard M. Nixon. Endangered species are defined by the ESA as those species that are in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of their range. Threatened species are those that are likely to become endangered within the foreseeable future. There are many who argue that the ESA is severely outdated, given the fact that 30 years ago, there were 109 plant and animal species listed for protection, and now there are 1263 endangered or threatened, 249 candidates, and 36 proposed.. But, say some, that’s not the only problem with the ESA.In the United States, cholera was prevalent in the 1800s but has been virtually eliminated by modern sewage and water treatment systems. "They ain't taking my tractor and I ain't housing no rats."----Jim

On an LDS record, I discovered that one of my McGOLDRICK rellies married a woman named Bridget McKERNAN around 1880 and moved to Illinois. According to the record Charles McGOLDRICK is buried in a Catholic church yard near Edwardsville, Illinois. So I began searching early Illinois records. I have not found him yet, but I did learn a few lessons along the way. The St. Louis County library has microfilmed church registers for the Belleville diocese. A parish listing is here: http://www.diobelle.org/parishes/bycity.html So, you could use the web site to determine how old the parish is and narrow down the search, then look at the parish records for the right years. If anyone is researching Illinois - East St. Louis, etc., give this web site a try. For out of towners, you could use the map and narrow down the parish by the date it was created and order LDS films for it. Diane Shaw Antonia, MO

1.) For those fortunate enough to have access to Heritage Quest, you should use a book that is on line called "The Census Book" by William Dollarhide. To find it, do the following: Click on Heritage Quest: Search Census, Browse, Help with the Federal Census Then click on "Published Statewide Censuses and Indexes" It will tell you where you can find an index to the census for your state. It will tell you what Family Tree Maker disks are available for it and will give you informaton about whether an index is on line. It has a ton of really good census information and all of it is on line. I am posting this because I was looking for the index to the 1900 St. Louis census on line - just to see if I could find it for someone who posted on the Irish list. I found that it is not available on line. This book is really excellent and is entirely published on this website, so you can read and refer to it in its entirety any time you need. 2.) Also in Heritage Quest, if you want to know what the county names were in the census year you are researching, do the following: Select "Search Census" Browse, Choose Census year Choose Census State Next to the state, click on the link to "view State Map". Diane Shaw Antonia, MO

I have transcribed the index to the St. Louis Coroner's Records for the surname "O'BRIEN". I plan to transcribe all names that begin with the letter "O" followed by an apostrophe, but the O'BRIEN clan wore me out and I will have to finish the project later. If you have an "O'BRIEN" in your family, have a look at this table: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/coronersurnamesObrien.html Diane Shaw Antonia, MO

Pat: The publication "Catholic Marriages of St. Louis 1774-1840" is a St. Louis Genealogical Publication. You can find it listed on their web page: http://www.stlgs.org/pubsales.shtml Personally, I wonder how big that publication is since it only costs $5.00. Diane Shaw Antonia, MO __________________________________ Pat wrote: Subject: [StL-Metro] Catholic Marriages of St. Louis 1774 - 1840 From: "Pat Hammons" <hammons@cr6.net> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:31:00 -0500 To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Where can I purchase a hardcopy of the 'Catholic Marriages of St. Louis, MO 1774 - 1840? thank you Pat

I don't know if Gerald Aubuchon is still on this list. I know he was ill for a while and returned. Anyway, I found a reference to the surname AUBUCHON in the St. Louis Genealogical Society's Quarterly Index: Volume XVII No. 3 - Fall 1984 * * Researching the Aubuchons in Missouri * Burials, St. Joachim Catholic Church, Old Mines, Washington County Missouri 1836-1845 * Where There's No Will, There's Often a Way * Baptisms in Trinity Lutheran Church, St. Louis, 1879-1880 * Revolutionary and Military Service Pensioners Living in Illinois at the Time of the 1840 Census * Cases in the Supreme Court of Missouri, 1852-1853 * Cemeteries - Missouri counties--Crawford, Franklin * Bible Records - William Scofield * Early Marriages in St. Vincent's Catholic Church, Cape Girardeau County Missouri, 1831-1841 You can learn more about the quarterlies from Dave Lossos' page: http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/quarterlies.htm The quarterlies are available in the St. Louis County Library. Diane Shaw Antonia, MO

Those links to the military records request site are good, Cori. Thanks for posting them. Diane Shaw Antonia, MO ________________________________________ Cori wrote: Greetings, All! This just came in from another genealogy list I'm on, and I 'm posting it in the hopes it might help someone on the list. Happy Hunting! Cori

http://www.immigrantships.net/ Scroll down to find the google search engine and search tips to see if your family may be listed on any of the ships that have been transcribed. Laura

I was a very young boy in the late 1930s, born: June 15,1935, but I remember seeing yellow signs on doors of people who were sick with cholera, scarlet fever, whooping cough, flu and many other contagious diseases. The signs were about one foot square and notified you that this house was quarantined and you were not allowed to enter. Quite often a yellow sign was replaced with a big red sign that was as scary as Freddie Krueger. In 1938 when we were living on North Elliot near St Louis Avenue one of the houses had one of those Big Red signs that informed us to stay away because the inhabitant had Cholera. Cholera: n.) One of several diseases affecting the digestive and intestinal tract and more or less dangerous to life, esp. the one commonly called Asiatic cholera. The man who owned the delicatessen in the middle of the block told us that they had caught the disease from the large infestation of rats in the neighborhood. We all saw the rats, and Mike being an owner of the nearest deli in the neighborhood, gave truth to the rumor. Who could doubt the word of such an August person as a deli owner and we had seen the proof with our very own eyes. We had seen these vicious rodents waiting to spring on us in the basements the minute we invaded their living quarters. That was how we came to understand that it wasn't only the drinking water that produced Cholera but those sneaky mice and rats played a very important role in our discomfort and illnesses also. PS I thought I would throw this definition in too, be careful of the paludals around STL. Paludal (a.) Of or pertaining to marshes or fens; marshy.

Where can I purchase a hardcopy of the 'Catholic Marriages of St. Louis, MO 1774 - 1840? thank you Pat

In a message dated 9/12/03 7:03:41 AM, MO-STLOUIS-METRO-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: << If each citizen was responsible for > taking care of a certain number of mice or rats, how many mice or rats would > > each citizen be responsible for?- >> As Bill Clinton once said, "Depends on what your definition of is is" or in this case, "taking care of" ;-)

Back in the 1940s, during the war years, there was a large population of mice and rats that concerned our City fathers so much that there was talk about putting a bounty on each mouse or rat pelt. That was exciting news, I dreamed mightily about becoming very wealthy, I lived in a house on Vista that had an unending source of income that would had put me in the upper income bracket easily. There was much concern about the rodents of the area stealing food supplies that should have been sent to our soldiers overseas fighting to save the world from an awful foe. As I remember it, the area of most concern was down on South Broadway near the Street car barns just across the street from the old Workhouse. I admit that those rats in that area were huge but for shear numbers our house near Manchester and Taylor held its own, population wise. My dad battled those mice and rats constantly and fought the good fight. He tried everything new and I used to think, "Wow," if we could only sell them. Then when talk started about a bounty, I knew Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket, Laclede and Chouteau would fade into the shadows against my prowess as a trapper, I knew all the tricks. Boxes with drop lids, snap traps, grain up a plank and into a barrel of water that caused them to commit suicide, even that horrible smelling paste that they seemed to enjoy that poisoned them. But alas, I was never able to find the address of the bounty office and my dreams of great wealth faded, but the mouse and rat population did not. Now I'm told that squished rats have been seen on some road ways but not often. Also that there are more chemical plants around St Louis with advanced poisons that have helped with irradication. One young lady speculated that aliens might have lent a hand. One playful young lady thought I may have been comparing my tree to these pesty rodents. One interesting thought was there may be a comparison made to the human population that should be taken seriously. Then this thought was given: "I would imagine better trash containment and sewage disposal has played a large part in the decrease in numbers." All these suggestions were factual and full of worth, but no one has said a thing about my Dad. If you will remember the "McQuillen Saga," I discussed my Dad's efforts in trapping mice and how he decreased the Mouse and Rat population on Vista. Could the lack of these rodents be because Ralph W. Brasher Jr was responsible? I am still searching for population numbers.