I thought only Mizzou Football fans said "miz-zoooooo-RAHHHHHH", and really loud, too. Lisa Farrand Kemp ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jims505@aol.com> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 12:11 PM Subject: [StL-Metro] Missouri > I was born and raised in St Louis and have always pronounced the State name: > > Miz-zooree.

Everyone I knew from St. Louis said "Miz-zor-rah", and it was standard pronunciation back in the mid 60's and 70's, but maybe it has changed, due to all the movement of people around the US. And I've been away from St. Louis since 1961, and I still say it that way - thought that was the way you recognized a "real" Missourian. Nancy from LA -----Original Message----- From: Gina [mailto:spaz@dam.net] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 4:07 PM To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [StL-Metro] (no subject) My Mom was born and raised in St. Louis and she pronounces it Miz-zor-rah, a lot of people pronounce it that way. Gina -----Original Message----- From: Shamrock1020@aol.com [mailto:Shamrock1020@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 3:20 PM To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [StL-Metro] (no subject) Do you think the pronunciation of Miz-zoo-rah comes from the college teams in Columbia, Missouri since they are known as Mizzou? I also pronounce it Miz-zooree. Our Senator, Kit Bond, does not know how to pronounce the word either. He says "Miz-zoo-rah. Happy Holidays to all. Mary ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== If you are researching the Irish in St. Louis, you might want to have a look at Diane Shaw's websites: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/Irshnstl.htm and http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/KerryPatch.htm

Do you think the pronunciation of Miz-zoo-rah comes from the college teams in Columbia, Missouri since they are known as Mizzou? I also pronounce it Miz-zooree. Our Senator, Kit Bond, does not know how to pronounce the word either. He says "Miz-zoo-rah. Happy Holidays to all. Mary

<<Makes me wonder about the German in St. Louis.>> Hi Connie: Most German enunciations quickly passed and certainly by the third generation with St. Louis Germans. There was very little "preservation". While I remember my father using the word "Zinc" for sink sometimes, I do know that he, a third generation German, did not know enough of the language even to make a sentence. By the third generation, there was no discernable accent other than the "St. Louis Accent" that's been spoken about. Unlike Cincinnati, the Germans in St. Louis did not form a single, homogeneous community. St. Louis was not conducive to one large German settlement. Differences in dialect and the desire to live near people from the same section of the fatherland were frequent considerations in the choice of a place to settle. A St. Louisan of German birth, Ernest Kargau, stated that, "those from the northern section of Germany happened to also settle in North St. Louis, and those from Southern Germany settled in South St. Louis." Assimilation took place at a remarkable speed in St. Louis given the majority German population. Speaking to the assimilation process, Carl Schurz, of Wisconsin, a past member of Lincoln's cabinet and a future U. S. Senator from Missouri noted, "The old people have preserved the tradition of the German spirit and German training, but they are unable to bequeath it to their children." The offspring, he found, contrasted "strikingly" with their children. The German spirit fades away. "If the training remains wholly German and all contact with Americanism is avoided, a stupid Pennsylvania Germanism results." (Since living here, I know what this means - and he's right!) Where that is not the case, the waves of Americanism soon overwhelm the second and third generation. The extent to which ethnicity persisted beyond 1880 depended on the success with which German culture could be transmitted to the third generation. The degree of language preservation was much greater in rural areas than in St. Louis. That was true throughout the country, but particularly so in Missouri. The 1940 census showed that the third generation in rural Missouri were nearly five times as likely to claim German as their mother tongue as their counter parts in St. Louis An example of the above was told by William Seabrook who was writing for New America Magazine in 1937 when he visited a town named "New Melle" which was located in Calloway Township, St. Charles Co. Seabrook states, "This area was something different: In a village named New Melle, about 30 miles from St. Louis, I walked into a general store, and for a moment passed unnoticed while a group of farm children, some of them barely toddling, were buzzing to each other and to the shopkeeper in low German, not one word of English - not even interspersed with English slang. There could be trouble if anyone suggested that Germans of St. Louis act just like people everywhere in Missouri. St. Louis never regarded itself as "backwoodsy." Gary Stoltman Mercerville, NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: <SCraycraft@aol.com> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:08 AM Subject: [StL-Metro] New England Dialect was Another Question about Pronunciation > Roy > David Fisher talks about this in his book, "Seed of Albion" a must-have for > anyone with family here before the Revolution. Although they had success in > several parts of England the Puritans (who didn't call themselves that) were > concentrated in the new, urban, largely literate middleclass in the counties > around London, East Anglia. The family of dialects there were high pitched, nasal > and added and deleted the r sound like no other English speakers. Fisher says > it can still be heard in the countryside but has mostly disappeared. > So why did the r sound and the nasal twang persist in New England? Fisher > attributes it to the harsh colonial life that kept people emotionally bound to > the England that they or they grandfather left. They preserved what they could > of the good life. Also, the powerful elite of New England, ministers and > magistrates, the people to emulate, were all from East Anglia. Their descendents > kept their power for many generations. > So it's not just the folk in Appalachia singing old English Ballads, parts of > old English dialects are spoken all over America. Fisher says the Afrikaans > of South Africa preserves antique Dutch and the Spanish of Peru old fashioned > Castilian forms. Makes me wonder about the German in St. Louis. > > Connie > Seeking Schober, Wilson, Marx, Halpin and Strasser in St Louis > Sorry if this shows up twice. The first one just disappeared. > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. >

Following was an article also below obits section in the 1912 Post. What is a lid club, obviously it is a bar, but why was it called a lid club??? The only thing that comes to mind, is did this have to do with prohabition etc? 'Abe R. Thompson, a street-car conductor, filed suit for divorce from Anna Thompson Thursday, alleging the she frequented lid clubs with other men. Thompson charged that his wife left her 5 months old baby at home without care, while she visited the lid clubs, and drank to excess. Mrs. Thompson, now living with her mother at 1114 Park Avenue, was promised forgiveness for her conduct in the past if she would give up the lid clubs and return to her husband, the petition states. She refused. The couple married June 22 1909 and separated Aug 30 1911' Pat

I sent for some obits and they are not mine, so maybe this will help someone else: COLLINS - On Wednesday, May 1 1912, at 6:30 AM after a short illness, Lyola Virginia Collins, aged 5 years, dear beloved daughter of John J and Mary F. Collins (nee White) and dear sister of Julia, Marryda, Celeste, Jack and Frances Collins. Funeral Thursday, May 2 at 2PM from family residence, 4128 Cook Ave to Calvary Cemetery. Funeral private The burial permit : Lyola V. Collins, 5, 4128 Cook; diptheria.

I was born and raised in St Louis and have always pronounced the State name: Miz-zooree. Every one I knew did too. Where I live now, some local announcers discussed this pronunciation not long ago and decided it was pronounced: Mizz-oo-rah. I forgave them though, they also say "Feliz Navidad" for "Merry Christmas." Who can figure?----Jim

Don't worry about why those folks in the South are adding r's to their words. They're just rescuing the dropped r's from words in the NorthEast! Lisa "Farrand Families of Missouri and Illinois" http://pookie-baby.tripod.com/Farrand2000/index.html Rootsweb Posting http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=speshelkay

As I was eating my "ARE-ng" last night, I was watching the news and the reporter was talking about the "am-byew-LANCE" took someone away. I thought to myself - "Probably took them to the HOUSE-pitle..... Lisa Farrand Kemp "VAH! Denuoune Larine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur!"

My mother was born and raised in Tennessee. My sister's name is Greta and my mother always calls her Greter as well as adding the er to other words. Who knows why? Ann __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/

Roy David Fisher talks about this in his book, "Seed of Albion" a must-have for anyone with family here before the Revolution. Although they had success in several parts of England the Puritans (who didn't call themselves that) were concentrated in the new, urban, largely literate middleclass in the counties around London, East Anglia. The family of dialects there were high pitched, nasal and added and deleted the r sound like no other English speakers. Fisher says it can still be heard in the countryside but has mostly disappeared. So why did the r sound and the nasal twang persist in New England? Fisher attributes it to the harsh colonial life that kept people emotionally bound to the England that they or they grandfather left. They preserved what they could of the good life. Also, the powerful elite of New England, ministers and magistrates, the people to emulate, were all from East Anglia. Their descendents kept their power for many generations. So it's not just the folk in Appalachia singing old English Ballads, parts of old English dialects are spoken all over America. Fisher says the Afrikaans of South Africa preserves antique Dutch and the Spanish of Peru old fashioned Castilian forms. Makes me wonder about the German in St. Louis. Connie Seeking Schober, Wilson, Marx, Halpin and Strasser in St Louis Sorry if this shows up twice. The first one just disappeared.

And how about the way the natives pronounce the name of the state-Missourah? Margie -----Original Message----- From: Roy4243@aol.com [mailto:Roy4243@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:41 AM To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Another question on Pronounciations In a message dated 12/22/03 0:01:32, hammons@cr6.net writes: > For example:  Ilah is sometimes 'Iler' and Diane is Dianer etc. Has anyone > else noticed this?   I think people in England do this too in some areas. I > would like to know the whys and wherefores of this if any one knows? > Pat: You're right, but I don't know any "whys or wherefores". That's what they do in Massachusetts, the land of my birth. It took a lot of ribbing from my wife's side of the family to get me out of that nasty habit. We left the r out of some places and transposed it to some other improper places. A friend of mine was married to Martha, which he pronounced "Mahther". No rhyme nor reason to it -- just the way he did it. Maybe it came from England -- but, "why"??? Roy ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com.

In a message dated 12/22/03 0:01:32, hammons@cr6.net writes: > For example:  Ilah is sometimes 'Iler' and Diane is Dianer etc. Has anyone > else noticed this?   I think people in England do this too in some areas. I > would like to know the whys and wherefores of this if any one knows? > Pat: You're right, but I don't know any "whys or wherefores". That's what they do in Massachusetts, the land of my birth. It took a lot of ribbing from my wife's side of the family to get me out of that nasty habit. We left the r out of some places and transposed it to some other improper places. A friend of mine was married to Martha, which he pronounced "Mahther". No rhyme nor reason to it -- just the way he did it. Maybe it came from England -- but, "why"??? Roy

I know we are beating this subject to death, but I have a question and do think it is a little history/genealogy related. I have noticed on some of my Southern and some of my east coast research, that often a 'r' or 'er' is put at the end of a name. Why is that? For example: Ilah is sometimes 'Iler' and Diane is Dianer etc. Has anyone else noticed this? I think people in England do this too in some areas. I would like to know the whys and wherefores of this if any one knows? Pat

Nancy's email reminded me that I ordered some 'French Canadian' genealogy books from Quinten Publications a few years ago ( A really good place to get books on some of the parishes in Quebec and other places by the way) Anyway, the man that answered the phone had such a beautiful French speaking accent, and I told him I admired it and had tried French, but just could not get the pronunciations and he laughed and told me, that I never would with my southern accent. While I am about 100 miles from St. Louis, I was married to a Southerner for many years and must have picked some that up. Pat Reseaching St. Louis French names

Here is what I found for Chaser: Logging Machinery Operators Nature of the Work People in this classification move logs from where they have been cut and organize them for transportation to the processing plant. They operate a variety of logging machinery to fall, yard and process trees at logging sites. They are employed by logging companies and contractors. Example Titles butt-n-top feller operator cable yarding operator cable yarding system operator chaser feller buncher operator grapple yarder operator hoe chucker operator juicer loader operator mechanical harvester and forwarder operator rigging slinger steelspar operator treelength forwarder operator Hope this helps! Gina -----Original Message----- From: rbozzay [mailto:rbozzay@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 6:29 PM To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [StL-Metro] Another occupation question... Any idea what a Chaser would be? Listed as an occupation in 1880 NY Laura ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== For tips on researching St. Louis Church Records: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/churchrecords.htm

Dear Gary: Merry Christmas. The "poem" I believe was meant for the enjoyment of genealogy for those of us who believe the family tree is an important and fun way to enjoy our hobby. I realize you did not mean to criticize. Sometimes, I feel there are those of us who would like to contribute to some of the wonderful websites out there but will be "criticized" for the slightest of errors. That is a shame. Please, let's loosen up out there and enjoy every contribution that we can find. Judy Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Stoltman" <stopan@optonline.net> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Granny's genealogy > Georgia: > > I'd guess that "Me Ineptum" means "I'm an idiot/fool/inept" [L. ineptum - to > play the fool, to trifle] > It's been a long time since Latin class but I'd say that this is just > jibberish. Where did you see this? > > Gary Stoltman > Mercerville, NJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Georgia Clark" <georgia@corpsie.com> > To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 2:15 PM > Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Granny's genealogy > > > > Dear Lisa, > > > > I want to give the poem to the woman who does our genealogy society's > newsletter. Is there an author who should be mentioned? > > > > Is this Latin? "VAH! Denuoune Larine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum > modo elabitur!" > > > > Georgia > > > > > > > > Bill and Lisa Kemp wrote: > > > > > A nice little poem for ALL of us for Christmas. For some reason I > thought of Jim505 when > > > I read the 4th stanza... > > > > > > Lisa Farrand Kemp > > > "VAH! Denuoune Larine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur!" > > > > > > > > > They think that I should cook and clean, > > > and be a model wife. > > > I tell them it's more interesting > > > to study Grandpa's life. > > > > > > They simply do not understand > > > why I hate to go to bed . . . > > > I'd rather do two hundred years > > > of research work instead. > > > > > > Why waste the time we have on earth > > > just snoring and asleep? > > > When we can learn of ancestors > > > that sailed upon the deep? > > > > > > We have Priests, Rabbis, lawmen, soldiers, > > > more than just a few. > > > And yes, there's many scoundrels, > > > and a bootlegger or two. > > > > > > How can a person find this life > > > an awful drudge or bore? > > > When we can live the lives of all > > > those folks who came before? > > > > > > A hundred years from now of course, > > > no one will ever know > > > Whether I did laundry, > > > but they'll see our Tree and glow . . . > > > > > > 'Cause their dear old granny left for them, > > > for all posterity, > > > not clean hankies and the like, > > > but a finished family tree. > > > > > > My home may be untidy, > > > 'cause I've better things to do . . . > > > I'm checking all the records > > > to provide us with a clue. > > > > > > Old great granny's pulling roots > > > and branches out with glee, > > > Her clothes ain't hanging out to dry, > > > she's hung up on the Tree. > > > > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > > > Search the Archive of Messages for MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=MO-STLOUIS-METRO > > > > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > > To ask for a lookup or volunteer to do acts of genealogical kindess, visit > Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness at http://www.RAOGK.org. > > > > ______________________________

Many years ago, when I was at the University of Illinois but shortly after I had moved away from South St. Louis, I happened to be speaking to a class, and I mistakenly said "Dahrmatory", obviously my word for "dormitory". Right after the class, one of the students came up to me, and asked me if I came from St. Louis. When I confirmed that, she said that she was a linguistics major, and that there was a cell of about 100 miles in diameter around St. Louis when a defined accent was identified. The key to that cell was that "or's" were generally pronounced like "ahr". Another favorite example is "hahrse" for "horse". So we are a very unique subset of the world! With regard to the pronunciation of "Gravoi", I always thought that that was a valiant try to pronounce this French word as close to the French as was, perhaps, reasonable. "Grav wah" would, of course, be correct in French, but pretty tough for Americans. But most French words in St. Louis are much closer to the correct French than they are in the rest of the US. For instance, we always said "River de Pair" for "River des Peres", and that's almost exactly right. In contrast, in Illinois, I actually lived in a city called "Des Plaines" and pronounced exactly like that - with both "s's" loudly included. I'm sure St. Louisans would have called it "De Plan", and be much closer. Nancy Johnson from Los Angeles now -----Original Message----- From: DINETTEGUY@aol.com [mailto:DINETTEGUY@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:49 AM To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Gratiot Street My grandmother used to say "Go warsh you hands in the zink." She also said arl for oil! I was born in South St. Louis and it has been pointed out to me that we say SouSt.Louis as all one word. Diane H. ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== If you haven't visited Dave Lossos' "Genealogy in St. Louis" website (http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/) you might want to take a look.

Any idea what a Chaser would be? Listed as an occupation in 1880 NY Laura

Maybe it should say works on levees ,as around rivers and such. Rita Broeker ----- Original Message ----- From: rbozzay To: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 5:51 PM Subject: [StL-Metro] Census Occupation Any idea what someone who "Works on Leaves" does? this was in NY in 1880. I am at a loss on this one. Laura ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com.