Only Catholics were married at Mass on the altar. Pre-Vatican females were not allowed inside the Communion rail. Catholic/non-Catholic marriages were conducted by the priest outside the Communion rail. . .that could be in the church building or in the rectory. So, your aunt was married in the Church. The blessing was for those who had "attempted civil marriage" and wanted to square their position in the Church. A marriage by civil authority did not count on the record of a Catholic so that the full sacrament could be administered. However, there was no breaking of the sacramental marriage except by death. To leave such a marriage by divorce meant that the Catholic was not allowed to receive the Sacraments (Holy Eucharist, etc.) An ecclesiastical annulment could be pursued. 1) Mixed Religion—A marriage between a Catholic and a validly baptized non-Catholic 2) Disparity of Cult or Worship—A marriage of a Catholic to a non-baptized person 3) Consanguinity—Forbids marriage between third cousins or any nearer degree of kindred 4) Affinity—It is forbidden to marry the third cousin of any near blood relation of a deceased husband or wife 5) Spiritual Affinity—A species of relationship contracted by means of the sacraments of baptism and confirmation where parents cannot marry the sponsor of a child or the person who baptized it; nor can sponsors marry their godchildren 6) The dispensation most frequently requested was dispensation from Banns. In order to place a check upon clandestine marriages, to discover any impediments which may exist, to prevent deceptions and surprises, to afford parents and others interested an opportunity to interpose if needful, and to procure the prayers of the faithful that God may give grace and prosperity to the contracting parties, the Council of Trent (1545-63) decreed that the promise of marriage be published on three successive Sundays or holidays at the principal Mass by the parish priest of the parties. "Marriage Dispensations: An Untapped Source for Catholics and Non-Catholics" by Joseph Silinonte explains the rules and published more than 40,000 dispensations granted by Bishop Loughlin for the Diocese of Brooklyn between 1859 and 1891. He omitted one other: the marriage should be conducted in the bride's parish. Dispensation records are important because there is little or no information for that time period (1850-1890)about those immigrants. A friend brought up an interesting aspect regarding pre-marital pregnancy. A priest could refuse to marry a couple if a pregnancy existed as he could consider it to be an impediment to the contract. So much for "shotgun" marriage! I don't know if the marriage could be blessed at a later date. The Pope, not the Bishop, could grant a dispensation for a non-Christian and a Catholic to marry. Thus, the Catholic was bound by the Church rules re marriage and could not invoke the Pauline Privilege regarding Catholic and non baptized people. My goodness, this has really opened a large can of worms. I am constantly confused by the changes brought about by Vatican II. My father was buried from Mass although he had been denied the Sacraments for 40 years because of a divorce from my mother and his subsequent civil marriage. Ellen Lsnehring@aol.com wrote: >Also....if you were a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic....many times the >priest did not allow u to get married in the church. My aunt and uncle had to be >content with being married in a side chapel, which was considered "kind of" in >the church and "kind of" not in 1937. By the time they had their 50th - he had >become Catholic and my aunt's dearest wish of being blessed in the church as >a married couple was fulfilled. > >So much, then as now, depended on the individual priest and how much he >allowed in HIS church. > __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

I remember when a marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic was performed at the side altar. My aunt told me that she and her husband who was a non Catholic were married in the priest's rectory, April 1946. Not only was my uncle a Catholic priest, my mother's family were very close to the parish priests but I guess it just wasn't allowed at the time. My mother was just going to get married in a plain old dress or suit when she and my Dad married (1 January 1942) but the pastor said that since theirs was to be the first marriage in the new (rebuilt?) church building (SS Mary and Joseph), he thought that she should do it up properly. My Mom got a wedding dress for $10.00. Her sister made a veil and the maid of honor's dress. Georgia Lsnehring@aol.com wrote: > Also....if you were a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic....many times the > priest did not allow u to get married in the church. My aunt and uncle had to be > content with being married in a side chapel, which was considered "kind of" in > the church and "kind of" not in 1937. By the time they had their 50th - he had > become Catholic and my aunt's dearest wish of being blessed in the church as > a married couple was fulfilled. > > So much, then as now, depended on the individual priest and how much he > allowed in HIS church. > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > RootsWeb forbids posting of copyrighted material without permission of the author. You can read RootsWeb's Acceptable Use Policy at http://rootsweb.com/rootsweb/aup.html.

Also....if you were a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic....many times the priest did not allow u to get married in the church. My aunt and uncle had to be content with being married in a side chapel, which was considered "kind of" in the church and "kind of" not in 1937. By the time they had their 50th - he had become Catholic and my aunt's dearest wish of being blessed in the church as a married couple was fulfilled. So much, then as now, depended on the individual priest and how much he allowed in HIS church.

Hi everyone. I will be away from my computer for about 1 week. My son will have access to it but he has no idea what to do with the list. So Michelle has graciously agreed to take it over while I am out of touch. I will be back online late Thursday. I will have the list until around 5 or 6 PM tonight. Also, one final plea before I start unsubbing any addresses with spam filters. If you are using a spam filter you need to set it up so that it takes mail from those of us on the list you need to communicate with. For example, your list admins. My direct email is visible to you on this message if you act as if you are going to forward it. That way if something is not working, we have a chance of fixing it. The only recourse we have is to unsub the addresses that are causing issues with our lists. Thanks everyone! So make sure you spam filters will take mail from both: MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com and MO-STLOUIS-METRO-D@rootsweb.com. Laura

Can anyone direct me to a good site for a history lesson on the dates for formations of states? Along with the years that the states were formed, the areas that they were formed out of? Thanks! Michelle

My great-grandfather was a teamster for the Quartermaster in the Mex War in 1847. He was only fifteen years old and got paid $25 a month. Barb Schroy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

Lots of employments were eligible to pay the dues. As a teen-ager in Kansas City, worked in the Coca Cola plant stacking flats of empties as they came off the trucks. Not eligible or wanting to join the union, gave the Steward $5.00 a week to be able to work. It was cash money and no records were kept. Each week, he told the foreman it was ok for me to work for another week (after he had my $5.00, of course). Bill Houdek ----- Original Message ----- From: <Roy4243@aol.com> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Teamsters > All this teamster talk is fascinating. Would it surprise anyone to find that > some local police unions are in the Teamsters Union? Put "Police teamsters" on > Google and see what you get. No, they're not all truck drivers. > Roy > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > For tips on researching St. Louis Church Records: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/churchrecords.htm >

Hi Pre-Vatican II, the Catholic Church did not recognize civil marriage WHEN ONE OR BOTH OF THE CONTRACTING PARTIES WAS CATHOLIC. Bob Doerr in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks ----- Original Message ----- From: <enalibof@netscape.net> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Finding possible divorce records > Pre-Vatican the Catholic Church did not recognize civil marriage. Such a civil marriage was not only unrecognized, but the children are illegitimate. The Catholic participants were denied the Sacraments until they resolved the issue. 88 percent of pre-Vatican II Catholics were married in the church. A trancript of Catholic Marriage Annulments is at > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week431/cover.html > I found St. Sebastian's Church has posted 'Frequently Asked Questions About Annulments' at URL http://www.stsebastianrc.org/annulments.htm. > You will see notations in the sacramental register for "attempted civil marriage" on the entry for the sacrament of matrimony. That is only for the date and place of the Church sanctioned marriage. > If you encounter such a note you will then need to look in earlier civil registers. However, the civil marriage may have taken place in a different state. Gretna Green is the historical village on the border of Scotland and England and has led to the term "Gretna Green" as applied to a place such as Yuma AZ, Belleville IL, etc. where couples could elope. > I still have to follow through on several marriages. I have the civil record for my grandmother's first marriage which was ended by his death, I have the church record for the third marriage which notes that her second marriage was annulled by the ecclesiastical court (gives his name and the date of the annulment. That means that there may be a church record of her first and second marriages and a civil record for the third that I need to locate. > Remember, I am so old that the Church law as I learned it at Loretto Academy was pre-Vatican. > Ellen > > "rbozzay" <rbozzay@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >Hi, Ellen > > > >I am interested in your note about a civil marriage being blessed. Can you > >expand on that? > >I may have a couple who fit into this category. They raised all their > >children as Catholic. > >But they were married by a Justice of the Peace. It was 1879 when the civil > >marriage took place. > > > >I think others on the list may also like more info on this if you have it. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Laura > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: <enalibof@netscape.net> > >To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:28 PM > >Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Finding possible divorce records > > > > > >> > >> > >> Some of the pre-Vatican II Church laws that were in effect may account for > >some of the issues you are encountering. > >> The marriages contracted civilly would have had a license. Civil marriages > >could be "blessed" and appear in the sacramental register of the parish for > >the date of the church sacrament. There has always been "confidential" > >marriage in which no public record is generated. That remains true today in > >California. > >> Ellen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Georgia Clark <georgia@corpsie.com> wrote: > >> > >> >Dear Sharon, > >> > > >> >There is information about where to inquire about divorce records (as > >well as other records) on Dave Lossos' website for St. Louis Genealogy: > >> > > >> >http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/dluseful.htm > >> > > >> >The St. Louis Public Library has indices for marriages in ST. Louis but > >it seems that not all marriages that took place in a Catholic Church show up > >on the index. At least that has been my experience recently. > >> > > >> >http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/geneinfo.htm > >> > > >> >Click on item # 5 to see what is available and # 13 to email the library > >( Reference Desk). > >> > > >> >Georgia > >> > > >> >SReif1956@comcast.net wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi, > >> >> > >> >> I learned that my grandfather was married once before he married my > >grandmother in 1924. I even have a photo of the "happy couple" that was > >taken in St. Louis, so I was told. But, here's the dilemma. Most of the > >members of my family think that Grandpa did not divorce this woman. They > >were told that she simply did not like living away from her home and > >parents, so he "sent her packing", and was never heard from again. > >> >> > >> >> I have not yet found a wedding date from church records, but I am > >ordering a few films from St. Stephens of Hungary and St. Mary of Victories > >(since these were the Hungarian parishes of the time). Is there a city > >index of divorces on file with the clerk's office? I was wondering if just > >maybe there was one that I could cut some time off my research. > >> >> > >> >> The story goes that when my grandmother was told that she was to die of > >cancer, the visiting priest said that she needed to renounce my grandfather > >for his first "unholy" marriage. She refused (but rumor has it that she did > >rip up her marriage license to Grandpa in a fit of rage one day). He asked > >if she had attended mass every Sunday. She said that she spent all her time > >through the years getting the 10 kids ready for mass, she did not have time > >for herself, but prayed at home. The priest told her that she would go to > >hell for these decisions of hers. She replied, "Father, I'll see you > >there!". > >> >> > >> >> So, you see, I'd really like to know if dear Grandpa deserved this kind > >of insensitive thinking. I'd like to think that he had the good sense to > >get a legal separation from this woman. But I do not know whether they even > >got married in a church, although this woman is decked out in a fine wedding > >gown in the photo. I do not want to mention her name for her privacy, but it > >is known to the family. > >> >> > >> >> In the early 1920s what were the rules in St. Louis for divorces and > >separations? Could you just walk away from a marriage, even if it only > >lasted a few months? Lots of questions to ask and research to do here. > >> >> > >> >> Would appreciate anyone's knowledge in this area. Thanks, > >> >> > >> >> Sharon Bognar Reif > >> >> > >> >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >> >> For tips on researching St. Louis Church Records: > >http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/churchrecords.htm > >> > > >> > > >> >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >> >To ask for a lookup or volunteer to do acts of genealogical kindess, > >visit Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness at http://www.RAOGK.org. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> __________________________________________________________________ > >> Thank you for using Netscape. > >> > >> > >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >> If you are researching the Irish in St. Louis, you might want to have a > >look at Diane Shaw's websites: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/Irshnstl.htm > >and http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/KerryPatch.htm > >> > > > > > > > >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > >To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. > Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register > Act now to get a personalized email address! > > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > RootsWeb forbids posting of copyrighted material without permission of the author. You can read RootsWeb's Acceptable Use Policy at http://rootsweb.com/rootsweb/aup.html. > > >

During the Civil War, the Union hired civilian teamsters to drive the wagons, etc. Bob Doerr in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks ----- Original Message ----- From: <MomRip@aol.com> To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Teamsters > In a message dated 1/9/2004 12:54:06 PM Central Standard Time, > anngparker101@yahoo.com writes: > > > If you were a teamster you had a pretty good job and > > were a member of a strong and proud labor union. Ann > > > Like many labor unions, they were formed to assure good working conditions > and fair wages and benefits. As time went on though they became corrupt and got > greedy, and many times(to this day) can be violent. This is why the word > Teamsters has a bad reputation. > > Lea in KCMO > Researching - Ripper, VonderHaar, Cirtautas, Gerst, Blumfelder > > > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. > >

In a message dated 1/9/2004 12:54:06 PM Central Standard Time, anngparker101@yahoo.com writes: > If you were a teamster you had a pretty good job and > were a member of a strong and proud labor union. Ann > Like many labor unions, they were formed to assure good working conditions and fair wages and benefits. As time went on though they became corrupt and got greedy, and many times(to this day) can be violent. This is why the word Teamsters has a bad reputation. Lea in KCMO Researching - Ripper, VonderHaar, Cirtautas, Gerst, Blumfelder

All my Byrne Police were.----Jim

No, 'tis Jeremiah, and I'm the one who is the BUTT of the joke (had my "cousins" mixed up) Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "McAuliffe, R. Emmett" <emcauliffe@thompsoncoburn.com> To: "Bill and Lisa Kemp" <wjkljk.kemp@att.net>; <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: RE: [StL-Metro] My Busy Cousin its not Jeremiah? Or am I on the outside of a joke? R. Emmett McAuliffe

All this teamster talk is fascinating. Would it surprise anyone to find that some local police unions are in the Teamsters Union? Put "Police teamsters" on Google and see what you get. No, they're not all truck drivers. Roy

This was the bad guy right? Georgia Jims505@aol.com wrote: > My Uncle "Bow" loved the Teamsters.----Jim ------------------------------------------------------------- No Dear, only a misguided youth, or perhaps socially challenged.----Jim

This was the bad guy right? Georgia Jims505@aol.com wrote: > My Uncle "Bow" loved the Teamsters.----Jim > > ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== > Search the Archive of Messages for MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=MO-STLOUIS-METRO

Dear Michelle, A union is a group of people united to bargain for wages and benefits such as the AFL (American Federation of Labor), the CIO, the UAW (United Auto Workers), UMW (United Mine Workers), etc., etc. I think you are reading too much into someone being a teamster unless he was one of the officers of the union and in trouble with the FBI and Congress. Georgia Muesic1@aol.com wrote: > Georgia, Jimmy Hoffa? Nah! But, see, that's what I mean.....exactly > what is a Teamster's Union? A Union for people who deliver > goods????? Someone mentioned in one of their emails that they had a > family member that hauled coal. My ggggrandfather was a teamster and > hauled coal. It also says that he worked on his own account. My > father says to me "Yeah, we even had a TEAMSTER in our family." But, > what was the big deal about that? So, my 3rd great had his own coal > hauling company and was a teamster??? Am I reading to much into the > big hype with being a Teamster? Michelle

Pre-Vatican the Catholic Church did not recognize civil marriage. Such a civil marriage was not only unrecognized, but the children are illegitimate. The Catholic participants were denied the Sacraments until they resolved the issue. 88 percent of pre-Vatican II Catholics were married in the church. A trancript of Catholic Marriage Annulments is at http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week431/cover.html I found St. Sebastian's Church has posted 'Frequently Asked Questions About Annulments' at URL http://www.stsebastianrc.org/annulments.htm. You will see notations in the sacramental register for "attempted civil marriage" on the entry for the sacrament of matrimony. That is only for the date and place of the Church sanctioned marriage. If you encounter such a note you will then need to look in earlier civil registers. However, the civil marriage may have taken place in a different state. Gretna Green is the historical village on the border of Scotland and England and has led to the term "Gretna Green" as applied to a place such as Yuma AZ, Belleville IL, etc. where couples could elope. I still have to follow through on several marriages. I have the civil record for my grandmother's first marriage which was ended by his death, I have the church record for the third marriage which notes that her second marriage was annulled by the ecclesiastical court (gives his name and the date of the annulment. That means that there may be a church record of her first and second marriages and a civil record for the third that I need to locate. Remember, I am so old that the Church law as I learned it at Loretto Academy was pre-Vatican. Ellen "rbozzay" <rbozzay@earthlink.net> wrote: >Hi, Ellen > >I am interested in your note about a civil marriage being blessed. Can you >expand on that? >I may have a couple who fit into this category. They raised all their >children as Catholic. >But they were married by a Justice of the Peace. It was 1879 when the civil >marriage took place. > >I think others on the list may also like more info on this if you have it. > >Thanks! > >Laura > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <enalibof@netscape.net> >To: <MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:28 PM >Subject: Re: [StL-Metro] Finding possible divorce records > > >> >> >> Some of the pre-Vatican II Church laws that were in effect may account for >some of the issues you are encountering. >> The marriages contracted civilly would have had a license. Civil marriages >could be "blessed" and appear in the sacramental register of the parish for >the date of the church sacrament. There has always been "confidential" >marriage in which no public record is generated. That remains true today in >California. >> Ellen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Georgia Clark <georgia@corpsie.com> wrote: >> >> >Dear Sharon, >> > >> >There is information about where to inquire about divorce records (as >well as other records) on Dave Lossos' website for St. Louis Genealogy: >> > >> >http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/dluseful.htm >> > >> >The St. Louis Public Library has indices for marriages in ST. Louis but >it seems that not all marriages that took place in a Catholic Church show up >on the index. At least that has been my experience recently. >> > >> >http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/geneinfo.htm >> > >> >Click on item # 5 to see what is available and # 13 to email the library >( Reference Desk). >> > >> >Georgia >> > >> >SReif1956@comcast.net wrote: >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I learned that my grandfather was married once before he married my >grandmother in 1924. I even have a photo of the "happy couple" that was >taken in St. Louis, so I was told. But, here's the dilemma. Most of the >members of my family think that Grandpa did not divorce this woman. They >were told that she simply did not like living away from her home and >parents, so he "sent her packing", and was never heard from again. >> >> >> >> I have not yet found a wedding date from church records, but I am >ordering a few films from St. Stephens of Hungary and St. Mary of Victories >(since these were the Hungarian parishes of the time). Is there a city >index of divorces on file with the clerk's office? I was wondering if just >maybe there was one that I could cut some time off my research. >> >> >> >> The story goes that when my grandmother was told that she was to die of >cancer, the visiting priest said that she needed to renounce my grandfather >for his first "unholy" marriage. She refused (but rumor has it that she did >rip up her marriage license to Grandpa in a fit of rage one day). He asked >if she had attended mass every Sunday. She said that she spent all her time >through the years getting the 10 kids ready for mass, she did not have time >for herself, but prayed at home. The priest told her that she would go to >hell for these decisions of hers. She replied, "Father, I'll see you >there!". >> >> >> >> So, you see, I'd really like to know if dear Grandpa deserved this kind >of insensitive thinking. I'd like to think that he had the good sense to >get a legal separation from this woman. But I do not know whether they even >got married in a church, although this woman is decked out in a fine wedding >gown in the photo. I do not want to mention her name for her privacy, but it >is known to the family. >> >> >> >> In the early 1920s what were the rules in St. Louis for divorces and >separations? Could you just walk away from a marriage, even if it only >lasted a few months? Lots of questions to ask and research to do here. >> >> >> >> Would appreciate anyone's knowledge in this area. Thanks, >> >> >> >> Sharon Bognar Reif >> >> >> >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >> >> For tips on researching St. Louis Church Records: >http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/churchrecords.htm >> > >> > >> >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >> >To ask for a lookup or volunteer to do acts of genealogical kindess, >visit Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness at http://www.RAOGK.org. >> > >> > >> >> __________________________________________________________________ >> Thank you for using Netscape. >> >> >> ==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >> If you are researching the Irish in St. Louis, you might want to have a >look at Diane Shaw's websites: http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/Irshnstl.htm >and http://members.gtw.net/~seamus/KerryPatch.htm >> > > > >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

Not all members of the Teamsters Union are truck drivers. My dad was a member of Teamsters Local #6, Brewery Workers. Bill Surnames of Interest: BUCHHOLZ anywhere -BECKMANN-CASSIDY-DeL0NJAY-DREES-MOSBACHER-NENTWIG-NEUTZLER-PONCOT-RENSIN G-STAUDER-STIEFFERMANN ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

Good morning, I googled "Confidential Marriage" and got over 60 hits, 58 counties plus the state of California addresses the issue. Then, I added "Missouri" to limit the number of hits. Try it. I have no idea of how to search in Bavaria. The St. Louis marriage records, civil and Catholic, were microfilmed by the Mormons. The county issues Confidential marriage licenses when the confidentiality of the marriage date is important. Couples who choose the Confidential License should be aware that when certified copies of the Confidential Marriage License are requested, the copies can ONLY be issued to the bride or groom with proper identification. The County Clerk strongly advises that a Regular marriage license be issued, except in those instances where the confidentiality of the marriage date is important. It has been their experience that complications frequently arise later when copies are requested and they can ONLY be issued to the bride or groom. The State of California states "Confidential Marriage License: The bride and groom must be at least 18 years old to apply for a confidential marriage license. Minors may NOT purchase a confidential marriage license. The bride and groom must be living together as husband and wife at the time they apply for the marriage license, and must sign an affidavit on the license attesting to those facts. The couple MUST be married in the county where the license is issued. No witnesses are required to be at the ceremony, AND no witnesses sign on the marriage license. The marriage license is a confidential record and is registered at the County Clerk’s Office in the county where it was purchased. Only the bride or groom may purchase copies of the marriage license and must present valid picture identification together with the required fee to the County Clerk in order to do so. Persons other than the bride or groom requesting copies of a confidential marriage license may only do so by presenting a court order to the County Clerk in the county where the license is registered. Copies of confidential marriages are not available from the state office." Each of the 58 counties of California regulates the issuance of confidential marriage. I hope this has helped somewhat in understanding "confidential marriage." Ellen LTBoehmke@aol.com wrote: >Hello, Ellen, > >Could you or perhaps someone familiar with marriage laws and records help us >understand "confidential" marriages where NO record is made? > >I have one set of grandparents for whom I cannot seem to find a marriage >record after trying various churches, both Protestant and Catholic. They would >have been married about 1848. Checking in Oberfranken, Bavaria, from which they >came, is hampered by the fact that I don't know her village. They were not >married in his village. LaVerne > > >==== MO-STLOUIS-METRO Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from this list, email MO-STLOUIS-METRO-L-request@rootsweb.com; in the subject line, put only the word UNSUBSCRIBE with nothing in the message body. You can contact Michelle or Laura at MO-STLOUIS-METRO-admin@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

If you were a teamster you had a pretty good job and were a member of a strong and proud labor union. Ann __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus