You make some good points however you fall into the trap of neo confederate apologists when you talk of Lincoln's aggression-sorry but you loose me-my ancestors were southern to the bone-some here long before it was a state-they fought against the rebels-not to free the slaves but to put down treason-if you mean Lincoln's aggression was to call up troops to put down a rebellion is in itself is aggression-then historically you are wrong-Lincoln was fairly elected-and perhaps some view this as aggression-then you must also ignore his stand on slavery-which he was certainly not for freeing the slaves if it would jeopardize the union. If by aggression you mean the federal government's right to resupply a federal fort in South Carolina-so be it. You also did not refute the Ruffians who helped to elect an illegal government in Kansas-I am not saying Jayhawkers were innocent- Despotic Northern Traders? Come now-you again absolve the Southern Planter Elite from their own destruction-the Elite were successful not in building up the south-due to their hunger for the easy life of decadence-they showed no desire or drive to accomplish any advancements in technology and industrialization-the south was agrarian out of Folk Ways imported from the South West of England-where most southern came from. The planters did not want to advance-they-and I can't stress this enough-wanted to live the Cavalier life of old England. The Northerners were driven by the education and social Folk Ways of the South East of England-which were anti-royalist. Again the War of Northern Aggression? Hard Core Revisionist Neo Confederate speak-let me see if I get this straight. The Southern Planter Elite: - They dominated the federal government for nearly all of the years leading up to the Civil War-thus gave us the Dred Scott Case, and the Fugitive Slave Law. - They got us involved in a War with Mexico in order to spread slavery west - They plotted to invade Cuba in order to make it a slave state - The South fired upon federal troops who were legally resuppling their Fort Sumter. - They stole arms from Federal Armories - They tried to leave the union when they lost a fair and open election - They terrorized anti-slavery Americans exercising their right to free speech and press. I will not respond to your Reconstruction comment- as this again is a myth of Neo Confederate apologists-and lost causers. Reconstruction was a joke as within a few years the old Southern Planter Elite began to install racists regimes in the old CSA-again terrorizing unionists whites and blacks- with murder, rape, lynching, and pillaging. I feel no sorrow for the south and southerners back then-I too come from a very old and long line of southerners-however, those I descend from were 100% unionists. It would be refreshing to actually not read commentary that I could read in the Magazine Southern Partisan. -----Original Message----- From: joannecole@charter.net [mailto:joannecole@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:26 PM To: MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Re: [MO-CW] Slavery and Mr. Lincoln's despotism THAT WAS GREAT!!! > > > By the time of Mr. Lincoln's aggression against it in 1861 the entire > Confederacy had a population of less than half that of the Union. > > As for your comment about the end of slavery in Texas, it is ludicrous on > its face. You state that slaves in Texas learned of the Emancipation > Proclamation in June (Juneteenth) but slavery did not end in Delaware until > the 13th Amendment was ratified in DECEMBER, some six months later. > Remember, Texas was one of the original eight Confederate states so Mr. > Lincoln's meaningless proclamation (he lacked the authority to "proclaim" a > law effecting sovereign states of another nation) was aimed at Texas. It > simply had no meaning until circumstances forced General Lee to surrender > his forces. > > As for responsibility--and guilt--for the "Bleeding Kansas" years I must > admit that some Missourians retaliated too strongly and harmed some > innocents, but if the Jayhawkers hadn't crossed into Missouri to rape, rob > and pillage there would have been no need for retaliation by Quantrill, > Anderson and others. For example, Colonel Anderson joined Quantrill only > after a Unionist murdered his father and he turned especially vicious after > Union soldiers murdered one of his sisters and maimed another. > > My own great-grandfather joined the "border ruffians" only after marauding > Jayhawkers burned out several of his friends and neighbors under the thin > guise of their "anti-slavery" views. It didn't matter to them that none of > the homesteads they attacked had slaves. They just wanted to steal horses > and cattle, kill men and rape women and any excuse would do. > > As for Southern failure to industrialize, there was a failure to build ships > of their own for trading in Europe. The wealthy New York and New England > businessmen of the time owned or controlled most U.S. flag vessels and did > their best to prevent shipments of machinery to the South. They also > threatened suppliers in Europe and England with curtailment of their own > purchases if machinery was sold to Southern businesses. They used the > despotic federal government to impose exorbitant import duties on any > industrial equipment brought into the South. They wanted the South to remain > predominantly agrarian and to supply them cheap cotton and tobacco. > > As for the retribution you question, have you never heard of > "Reconstruction" or Yankee carpetbaggers? > > And thanks to the failure of the Confederate States to maintain their > freedom and independence, we now have a gluttonous national government that > strives to absorb all our country's wealth and redistribute much of it to > the northeastern states. Slavery today is a bit more subtle. Workers can > have cars and color TV sets but they still have to give about 40% of their > earned wealth to support politicians, their otherwise unemployable relatives > and the slothful constituents who return them to office every election in > return for a few welfare dollars. > > Now let's get back to more specific study of Missouri's participation in the > War of Northern Aggression. > > Bill, in KC > =-=-=-=-= > > > > Subject: RE: [MO-CW] Slavery and Mr. Lincoln's despotism > > > > Hello, > > > > I am well aware of our history and not some the revisionist bunk below-War > > of Northern Aggression surely you jest-the South ran rough shot over the > > north-until immigration began to turn the tide and the numbers tilted to > > the north-once the south knew they could no longer bully the north they > > decided to cut and run. I find it funny that the North kept the South > > down-when in actuality the south up until the time of the Civil War more > > often than not had the White House, The Congress, and more importantly the > > Supreme Court- > > > > Actually, you are welcome to challenge my grasp-but you better come loaded > > for bear-how interesting that you sit in judgment of a wonderful political > > decision by Lincoln to only emancipate certain slaves. > > > > Federal Despotism-I find this to be a hoot-perhaps you should look into > > the despotism of those in the south who not only railroaded many of their > > people on the issue of Secession-then to further spit in the face of the > > rights of the people decided that counties in their states who wanted no > > part of this could not in turn leave the state-ironic. > > > > The last state to end Slavery was Texas-they forgot to tell the slaves > > they were free-the day of freedom in Texas is still celebrated as > > Juneteenth. > > > > By what right I ask you did border ruffians have to enter Kansas vote in a > > bogus election-how do they stand for the rights of the people against > > tyranny? the short answer is they don't. The Ruffians were the instigators > > of the violence-once the Free Staters saw that they were to be governed by > > an illegal government elected by the Ruffians-they indeed began to fight > > back-something the Southern were not familiar with-some would call it > > resistance. > > > > You are correct in that Jayhawkers used many excuses to pillage farms-etc. > > But you are blinded by your revisionism to see that both sides were > > equally guilty. > > > > I disagree with your economic analysis-first, Slavery depresses wages-no > > need to pay white folks a good wage when you can work slaves for free-or > > nearly free-since one does have to feed and cloth them. > > > > Let us keep in mind the planter elite were not interested in progress-they > > wanted to emulate the wealthy land owners of England-you should ask > > yourself why the southerners didn't take it upon themselves to develop > > their industry, railroads, etc.? Oh, mean northerners made life tough on > > the cotton plantation owners-I guess this would excuse them from > > diversifying-investing, etc. > > > > I will agree that there was little interest in many northerners to > > eliminate slavery-however, the Slave Owning elite drove them to this > > position by the attempt of Southerners to not only expand slavery west and > > south but to dictate to northerners the terms by which they would agree to > > stay in the union. > > > > One last note-the rebels got off easy-no mass executions-no mass > > confiscation of rebel property, and no mass expulsion of rebels. Had > > northerners been as the revisionists and the neo-confederates make them > > out to be then were was the retribution? > > > > Face up rebels-you all got hood winked by the wealthy-and paid the > > price-god forbid you all should own up to it. > > > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, send ONLY the word UNSUBSCRIBE to the utility address MO-CW-L-REQUEST@ROOTSWEB.COM If you are trying to unsubscribe from the Digest list, use the same utility address but change the -L- to a -D- > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== NOTICE: Posting of virus warnings, test messages, chain letters, political announcements, current events, items for sale, personal messages, flames, etc. (in other words - spam) is NOT ALLOWED and will be grounds for removal. 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