Remembering that the North benefited the most from it all. They had the textile factories. It appears the North was trying to control the South and it's resources. I believe much of the history to be correct in regards to most the south, but when it came to MIssouri, it was an entirely different issue. State's Rights...is always what is at issue and as typical, it appears to be a repeating trend. Slavery of any kind is wrong and was wrong so please don't misunderstand me. I am not trying to justify slavery. I am trying to introduce the real reasons for the SO CALLED CIVIL WAR, from one Missourian's point of view. My family lost all it had from Order #11 and the Burn Orders. They were just simple God Believing and Hard Working Folks as many were. Check Scholl/Ross/Boone/Muir/Hinde/Key/Wallace/Parr/James/Younger, ect......

--- "Simmons, Donald" <donald.simmons@encorp.com> wrote: > Jeanette Rays folks - hoping for Rebel ancestry!!!! This makes me smile.. I remember talking to someone about my MO ancestor and mentioned he served in the CW .. the guy was SOOOOO disappointed when I said he was apparently Union ..LOL.

--- Crystal <mywebtree@yahoo.com> wrote: > so perhaps you > should google and see some of the history. Sorry I wrote that poorly.. what I meant by my last statement was that if you are not aware that Indians were enslaved you can google and see some information on it - if you want - it is not commonly presented in schools. (I think I sounded rather harshly know-it-all which is not how I meant it.)

-Rich man's war-poor man's fight. Isn't it always...

Correct me if I am wrong, but not a single slave ship was owned or commissioned by a Southern State. Correct me if I am wrong, but Lincoln Freed the Slaves only in the South.......not the North...uh..Emancipation Procolmation. Correct me if I am wrong, but Slavery existed long after the So Called Civil War...Where??? in the NOrthern State...Much false, much wrong reported history.....How about some real truth...get down on it..common. Claiborne

--- SEASNAPPIER@aol.com wrote: > Correct me if I am wrong, but not a single slave > ship was owned or > commissioned by a Southern State. hmm. I can't speak for that - however they sure did take advantage of the product (ie the slaves) - no "side" was totally "innocent" (people yes, south/north as a whole no) - (personally although Slavery has been promoted as the "reason" for the war - there were many other reasons for the war - the politicos just used slavery as a tool to incite emotions (and probably redirected everyone's attention from the other shenanigans they were pulling).) (and please don't misinterpret me as saying freeing the slaves wasn't important)

--- PATKRAM@aol.com wrote: > As to it not being a great leap from American > Indians serving in the > Confederacy to Blacks serving. American Indians > were not enslaved. Blacks were. What I was mostly referring to was the perception by people who tend to "clump" minorities together. Anyway aside from that -- back in the day "savage" Indians were (by some people) considered "worse" than Black Slaves. However, while maybe not all Indians were enslaved some most certainly were and many were even shipped off to foreign countries. The Cherokee were luckier than most by the fact they were considered more "civilized" (hence the term the 5 Civilized Tribes) and "English" Europeans tended to leave them more alone and pick on the less "civilized" tribes (read: smaller and more vulnerable tribes) -- well til they wanted the Cherokee's stuff. Anyway my point is yes Indians were enslaved so perhaps you should google and see some of the history. Crystal (also of Cherokee heritage) Additionally - in Missouri (specifically) it was ILLEGAL to even be in the state if you were Indian. You could be hanged.

As to it not being a great leap from American Indians serving in the Confederacy to Blacks serving. American Indians were not enslaved. Blacks were. Pretty big difference. Pat Kramer Cherokee

Please clarify that for me just a little. Did you ever hear of the "Trail of Tears?" Different from forced labor, perhaps, but isn't confinement to inhospitable reservations a form of slavery? As for the Africans who served in the Confederacy, please remember that it was also their home that was attacked by Mr. Lincoln's gangs of armed marauders. The Jayhawkers and border ruffians who crossed into Missouri to rape, rob and pillage were not interested in the welfare of slaves or freedmen. They wanted only to steal what they could and destroy what they could not carry or drive off. Later, when Mr. Lincoln invaded the sovereign Confederate States of America he was attacking ALL the south and not just the white population. Many men of African descent were moved to take up arms in defense of their homes and families and fought valiantly in that cause. Bill, in KC =-=-=-=-=-= > As to it not being a great leap from American Indians serving in the > Confederacy to Blacks serving. American Indians were not enslaved. > Blacks were. > Pretty big difference. > Pat Kramer > Cherokee

Mr. Williams, YOU are awesome the manner in which you share your knowledge. YOU have forever been one of my 'all time favorite' posters on the Missouri Civil War rootsweb.com list. Thank you for educating me so well in those areas, in which a number of us have been so interested, and yet often times, not educated enough to ask the right question about what we'd really like to know about, such as the 'meat' of a subject that we'd really like to know more about. Rhonda Warmack Houston (rfhouston@mindspring.com)

Yes, it did and I enjoyed that movie! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arleigh Birchler" <abirchler16@yahoo.com> To: <MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [MO-CW] [RaceSlave] {Civil War} 65,000 - Scott K Williams - his response > Rose, > > I am familiar with those. The movie "Ride with the Devil" had a main character modeled on them. > > Arleigh > > rose <hickoryflatoutlaws@centurytel.net> wrote: > > Arleigh, > > There were 3 black men who rode with Quantrill. They were very well thought > of. After the war, one of them, John Nolan, attended the Quantrill Reunions > and at his funeral was called "a man among men." > > Rose Mary Lankford > > > > Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN > c/o Helaina Hinson Burton > 69 Gray Ghost Lane > Benson NC 27504 > (919) 934-6323 > > (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) > > > Musick/Porter Fan Club > Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== > NOTICE: Posting of virus warnings, test messages, chain letters, political announcements, current events, items for sale, personal messages, flames, etc. (in other words - spam) is NOT ALLOWED and will be grounds for removal. Consideration for exceptions, contact Kathleen Burnett kathleenburnett@earthlink.net > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > >

What they are confused about is the rest of this wonderful Country and Wonderful Missouri. Missouri the hold out..Kansas and Missouri and the Feds and the rest of Missouri. Claiborne Scholl Nappier

God Bless you....were getting close to the truth. Claiborne Scholl Nappier

There were also American Indians who fought with the south (documented). One was THE last confederate general to surrender (General Stand Watie - Cherokee). Wonder why it's such a great leap from AI's to Blacks being in the war.

"There's not much you can do to convince someone who already has their heart on something and their mind closed." Very true! "Ream, Benjamin F NWO" <Benjamin.F.Ream@nwo02.usace.army.mil> wrote: Some people just can't get passed the idea of Blacks supporting the confederacy. They don't know enough about history (especially of slavery) and think the idea is oxy-moronic. There's not much you can do to convince someone who already has their heart on something and their mind closed. -----Original Message----- From: rose [mailto:hickoryflatoutlaws@centurytel.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:42 PM To: MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MO-CW] [RaceSlave] {Civil War} 65,000 - Scott K Williams - his response Arleigh, There were 3 black men who rode with Quantrill. They were very well thought of. After the war, one of them, John Nolan, attended the Quantrill Reunions and at his funeral was called "a man among men." Rose Mary Lankford Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN c/o Helaina Hinson Burton 69 Gray Ghost Lane Benson NC 27504 (919) 934-6323 (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) Musick/Porter Fan Club Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love

Rose, I am familiar with those. The movie "Ride with the Devil" had a main character modeled on them. Arleigh rose <hickoryflatoutlaws@centurytel.net> wrote: Arleigh, There were 3 black men who rode with Quantrill. They were very well thought of. After the war, one of them, John Nolan, attended the Quantrill Reunions and at his funeral was called "a man among men." Rose Mary Lankford Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN c/o Helaina Hinson Burton 69 Gray Ghost Lane Benson NC 27504 (919) 934-6323 (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) Musick/Porter Fan Club Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love

Some people just can't get passed the idea of Blacks supporting the confederacy. They don't know enough about history (especially of slavery) and think the idea is oxy-moronic. There's not much you can do to convince someone who already has their heart on something and their mind closed. -----Original Message----- From: rose [mailto:hickoryflatoutlaws@centurytel.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:42 PM To: MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MO-CW] [RaceSlave] {Civil War} 65,000 - Scott K Williams - his response Arleigh, There were 3 black men who rode with Quantrill. They were very well thought of. After the war, one of them, John Nolan, attended the Quantrill Reunions and at his funeral was called "a man among men." Rose Mary Lankford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arleigh Birchler" <abirchler16@yahoo.com> To: <MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: [MO-CW] [RaceSlave] {Civil War} 65,000 - Scott K Williams - his response > "He explains it clearly http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm " > > So he does. But I am talking to folks who see the words "Black Confederate" and the number "65,000", and immediately respond: "That a lie! There were not 65,000 African soldiers legally enlisted in the Confederate Army". I have tried to talk about slaves forced to build fortifications, and they respond with the same denial about "legally enlisted soldiers". > > It would be nice to actually talk about the roles of Africans in the Southern states without having this automatic response. I am struggling to find a way to ask questions without being labeled a "Neo-Confederate". I have yet to determine if Ed Bearss quotation is taken out of context, at least by implication. > > Brock wrote: > "We have not yet gone into detail about how he defined his terms, or how he arrived at the 65,000 number." > > He explains it clearly http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm > > > Brock > > The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, arrested by Lincoln and imprisoned at Fort McHenry. > > September 13, 1861. > > "The flag which (my grandfather) had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed." > > When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote: > > "We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort." > > > > Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN > c/o Helaina Hinson Burton > 69 Gray Ghost Lane > Benson NC 27504 > (919) 934-6323 > > (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) > > > Musick/Porter Fan Club > Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, send ONLY the word UNSUBSCRIBE to the utility address MO-CW-L-REQUEST@ROOTSWEB.COM If you are trying to unsubscribe from the Digest list, use the same utility address but change the -L- to a -D- > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== NOTICE: Posting of virus warnings, test messages, chain letters, political announcements, current events, items for sale, personal messages, flames, etc. (in other words - spam) is NOT ALLOWED and will be grounds for removal. Consideration for exceptions, contact Kathleen Burnett kathleenburnett@earthlink.net ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Arleigh, There were 3 black men who rode with Quantrill. They were very well thought of. After the war, one of them, John Nolan, attended the Quantrill Reunions and at his funeral was called "a man among men." Rose Mary Lankford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arleigh Birchler" <abirchler16@yahoo.com> To: <MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: [MO-CW] [RaceSlave] {Civil War} 65,000 - Scott K Williams - his response > "He explains it clearly http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm " > > So he does. But I am talking to folks who see the words "Black Confederate" and the number "65,000", and immediately respond: "That a lie! There were not 65,000 African soldiers legally enlisted in the Confederate Army". I have tried to talk about slaves forced to build fortifications, and they respond with the same denial about "legally enlisted soldiers". > > It would be nice to actually talk about the roles of Africans in the Southern states without having this automatic response. I am struggling to find a way to ask questions without being labeled a "Neo-Confederate". I have yet to determine if Ed Bearss quotation is taken out of context, at least by implication. > > Brock wrote: > "We have not yet gone into detail about how he defined his terms, or how he arrived at the 65,000 number." > > He explains it clearly http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm > > > Brock > > The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, arrested by Lincoln and imprisoned at Fort McHenry. > > September 13, 1861. > > "The flag which (my grandfather) had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed." > > When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote: > > "We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort." > > > > Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN > c/o Helaina Hinson Burton > 69 Gray Ghost Lane > Benson NC 27504 > (919) 934-6323 > > (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) > > > Musick/Porter Fan Club > Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, send ONLY the word UNSUBSCRIBE to the utility address MO-CW-L-REQUEST@ROOTSWEB.COM If you are trying to unsubscribe from the Digest list, use the same utility address but change the -L- to a -D- > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > >

Greg, Thanks for a direct answer. I would like to get other folks guesses. Seems to me there might have been more black teamsters, but I don't know. Any guess on the number of African slaves forced to build fortifications? Arleigh gar2458 <gar2458@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com, Arleigh Birchler <abirchler16@y...> wrote: > > Thank you. Perhaps we can now return to my question. Can you give any rough estimate of how many Africans, either free or slaves, might have marched along with the CSA in support roles? ************** Arleigh, My guess would be less than 5,000. Greg Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN c/o Helaina Hinson Burton 69 Gray Ghost Lane Benson NC 27504 (919) 934-6323 (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) Musick/Porter Fan Club Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love

"He explains it clearly http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm " So he does. But I am talking to folks who see the words "Black Confederate" and the number "65,000", and immediately respond: "That a lie! There were not 65,000 African soldiers legally enlisted in the Confederate Army". I have tried to talk about slaves forced to build fortifications, and they respond with the same denial about "legally enlisted soldiers". It would be nice to actually talk about the roles of Africans in the Southern states without having this automatic response. I am struggling to find a way to ask questions without being labeled a "Neo-Confederate". I have yet to determine if Ed Bearss quotation is taken out of context, at least by implication. Brock wrote: "We have not yet gone into detail about how he defined his terms, or how he arrived at the 65,000 number." He explains it clearly http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm Brock The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, arrested by Lincoln and imprisoned at Fort McHenry. September 13, 1861. "The flag which (my grandfather) had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed." When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote: "We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort." Arleigh Birchler, MDiv, BSN c/o Helaina Hinson Burton 69 Gray Ghost Lane Benson NC 27504 (919) 934-6323 (Ali Sengaree - Allah'ka cli here chaya) Musick/Porter Fan Club Pleasure, Pain, Power, and Love