Bob, I especially enjoyed your response and history. I am not up on my history as I should be, especially regarding our military battles over the years, but would someone correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't the fact that this was a fight among the states and not just of slavery why so many of our court houses were burned, along with all the records we all share the common interest in today, and would give anything to have today? Lynne Downing, an average citizen of the USA ;-)

Norma, The Issue of States Rights was a bone of contention from the very formation of the American Government. In the 1830's John C. Calhoun spoke eloquently on this subject. There was never any agreement between the various states on the issue of States Rights. The War did not solve the debate although you don't hear too much about it since the 1950's. When the Southern states seceded, their position was that they had freely entered into an agreement to unite with other states to form the government and it was their right to freely leave that organization. The opposition said no. Once the states had formed one government, that government should last in perpetuity and that no state or states were free to leave. I'm sure one of the scholars here can give you a much better description but that's it in a nutshell. Belle

I believe the reason the Confederate flag arouses such rage in some people is the fact that in recent years it has come to represent hate groups because it has been prominently carried by those groups during protests and demonstrations. The handwriting is on the wall. The spinmeisters have won for many reasons. To the overwhelming majority of Americans, the 1860 Conflict was fought ONLY because of slavery. You are NEVER going to convince them otherwise. Period. Save your energy and breath. Bottom line: The Confederate Flag represents hate groups like the modern Ku KIux Klan to the overwhelming majority of Americans today. No one will ever be able to unlink the two. Anyone who honors the Confederate Flag will be viewed as a racist - regardless of whether this is true or not. No excuse or reason will ever be acceptable. No number of bumper stickers "History not Hatred" or beautifully written articles pleading for historical context will ever change it. In fact, I sincerely believe that in the not too distant future, membership in organizations like the United Daughters of the Confederacy or Sons of Confederate Veterans will be unwise. This is just the way things are. Trying to fight it is a losing battle. Just my opinion....................... Belle

I inadvertently sent the following message only to NbBowen and wanted to make sure the entire list received it. Here is the context of my email: I was taught the States' Rights which were in question and thus resulted in the war were whether or not new states entering the Union could choose to have slavery. The existing government wanted new states to be non-slave states. Is this incorrect? Norma

I agree with you, the civil war was about much more than slavery. They want you to believe that it was ALL about slavery. Because if you do your homework and know all the issues of that time, you may be inclined to have a slightly different opinion. The simpler things are the easier it is to make a choice, right? Ignorance is bliss I suppose. Rebecca

In a message dated 1/17/2003 10:19:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > but we still respect people that fought and died for what they believed in > at that the time was a just cause. We all know that slavery was not a just > cause. > > You are assuming, wrongly, the institution of slavery was the cause for the Civil War, just or not. The people you so kindly "still respect" (Confederates) were born Americans, the sons and grandsons of soldiers of the American Revolution and the War of 1812. They fought for the right to secede from the Union, just as their ancestors fought for the right to secede from the Crown. They failed in that attempt, but that fact does not invalidate their right to try or make it an "unjust" cause. The concept of states' rights is a much thornier problem to explain away; it has been much easier for revisionists to cite slavery as the cause.

Dear Sharon, Thanks. Spelling was one area where my education never "took". You are absolutely right. I am grateful that there are spellers out there who look over my shoulder and usually keep me out of trouble. Spell check only helps when you make up a word, not use the wrong one. Thanks Bob Meek -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Worthey [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [MO-CW] Succession vs Secession Not to be a pain - but "succession" is in a monarchy where one king "succeeds" another. "Secession" is what happened in the South when the states chose to "secede" from the Union. I'm not particularly enjoying the current discourse, but thought I'd make sure we're at least all talking the same English language while we debate our heritage. (I'm a Yank descended from a Missouri CW vet who supposedly also served the Union as a spy in the Southern rebel camps - married to a devout Rebel who still insists the South will rise again - with nothing to do with slavery issues, but strictly a territorial thing.) ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== "The scenes on this field would have cured anybody of war." William Tecumseh Sherman ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

<PRE>Excuse me but I am a Yankee. I was born and raised in Massachusetts. You remind me of the government that did nothing for our Navajo talkers who saved our butts during WWII and received nothing for their actions. No pensions, no benefits, nothing but a thank you. Those same Indians who tried to hold onto their land and were given nothing but sand reservations in Arizona. Have you ever been to a Navajo reservation or to any reservation. Think again!!! How dare you say that the Confederates and Union soldiers died for nothing. This is a simple little flag that denotes part of our American History. Nothing more, nothing less. It is people like you and the all mighty government who try to make a mountain out of a mole hill. My husband's great-grandather and great-uncles died and were invalided during that war. They fought for the Union but we still respect people that fought and died for what they believed in at that the time was a just cause. We all know that slavery was not a just cause. May be we should fly the African nation flags and then you will be satisfied and say, "Ah, justice has been done." Get a clue. This is 2003. The Civil War has been over for almost 200 years. The cause no longer exists and many soldiers on both sides died. Give it a rest.

Dear Fellow List Members, I wasn't going to comment any more on the Confederate Battle Flag controversy, but based on some post I think some clarification is needed. Based on my reading and undergraduate degree (BA American Military History) the War Between the States was not a rebellion, it was a succession. The Confederate States had no desire to overthrow the Federal Government of the United States, they wanted to withdraw from it. This was a continuation of the very hot debate over the Constitution adopted in the 1780's. The Constitution installed a much stronger federal system over the states than existed under the Articles of Confederation, even though the Constitution specifically states that all powers not specifically granted to the federal government resided in the states. This war was about states rights. Now, I am not so naive as to deny that one of those states' rights was slavery. One of my gggrandfathers fought in the Confederate Army from Missouri and another from SC. My wife's ancestors fought from NC. I have never found any records that indicate any of her or my ancestors owned slaves. Truth be known, they were too poor. I find it incomprehensible that the average Confederate soldier ever thought much that he was fighting to preserve slavery. He was fighting to defend his home from an invader. NC is a good example. I have lived here for 28 years now and my wife's family goes back to colonial days. NC did not want to succeed and did so reluctantly only after SC and VA had done so. Yet NC provided more soldiers to the Confederate Army than any other state. Where these poor NC farmers fighting to preserve slavery, I find that hard to believe. They were fighting to protect their home state. Even the venerable Robert E. Lee resigned from the US Army only after VA succeed and he felt his first allegiance was to VA. You must remember that men like Lee had direct information from the American Revolution. Lee's father Light Horse Harry Lee had been a hero. So it's not real hard to imagine that Lee grew up hearing all the stories about why the Revolution occurred. In closing we must remember that in 1860 the attitudes both political and practical were that your state came first and the federal system came second. There was still strong debate and feeling that a state could withdraw from the federal system just as the colonies had withdraw from British colonial rule. The succession of the Confederate states had similar results in that it provoked a war, this time the folks who wanted to leave the system lost. It is unfortunate that people who don't understand history and who still find it necessary to demean other fellow human beings have co-opted the Confederate Battle Flag (Actually it was a Confederate Naval Jack before it became a battle flag). If you interested get a book on Abraham Lincoln and read what he said about slavery in the context of stopping the succession of the Confederate States. In their memory, Bob Meek Colonel USAR(RET) BA American Military History, Wofford College, Spartanburg, SC

Just a note worth considering...slavery was practiced under the US flag much longer than it was under the Confederate flag.

As for anyone being offended by the flying of the Confederate battle flag at Higginsville, I think the following from present Congressman Lacy Clay is the appropriate response: "Many Visitors Share Respect for History of Confederate Site" Scott Charton, Associated Press St. Louis Post Dispatch, March 16, 1997 Excerpt: "State Sen. William Lacy Clay, D-St. Louis, who is black, said he was not offended by the Confederate flag's display, "so long as it's in that historical context." Clay is a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, which helps set the state parks budget. The park will receive about $150,000 in the current budget. "We as a people have to start respecting different cultures more. Those who honor the Confederate flag have a cultural separation from me - but we need to respect each other's views," Clay said. Seems reasonable to me. Jim McGhee

Not to be a pain - but "succession" is in a monarchy where one king "succeeds" another. "Secession" is what happened in the South when the states chose to "secede" from the Union. I'm not particularly enjoying the current discourse, but thought I'd make sure we're at least all talking the same English language while we debate our heritage. (I'm a Yank descended from a Missouri CW vet who supposedly also served the Union as a spy in the Southern rebel camps - married to a devout Rebel who still insists the South will rise again - with nothing to do with slavery issues, but strictly a territorial thing.)

Mr. Gephardt, You sir are no gentleman, and most certainly will not get my vote. I am a 6th generation Missourian, and your statement was offensive to me and to anyone who knows what that battle flag stands for. Your positioning for your Presidential dreams, is quite obvious to any educated man. You are using people and getting folks all stirred up, at a time when we all need to be united. I am ashamed for you, your party, and your obvious politics. I am an American, a Missourian, a humanitarian, but you sir are no gentleman. Rest assurred I will do all I can do to unseat your efforts to win the party's choice for President, if you get that far. Your statements about the Confederate Battle Flag show's your contempt for Veterans, for history and for our fighting men today. I urge you to apologize and reverse your position and stradigy on your campaign. I have known many black men in my life, and never has one of them told me that the Confederate Battle Flag was an issue with them. You are too obvious and too predictable, any educated and informed person knows what your true intentions are. I am a 6th generation Missourian and a Patriot and a veteran.......I'm ashamed of you. Claiborne Scholl Nappier

List members, Because several people responding in regards to the Gephardt controversy have stated that the Confederate flag should be flown at Confederate memorials because Confederate soldiers were also American soldiers, does it not follow that flying the American and Missouri flags at these memorials does them all the honor that is necessary? I personally don't think that Confederate soldiers were American soldiers, in the sense that they and their government were rebelling against the lawful government of the United States, and could have been tried for treason after the war if cooler heads in the Republican Party had not held sway and offered a blanket amnesty to lower-ranking soldiers and sailors of the Confederacy (which only became effective, by the way, after they took an oath of loyalty to the U.S. government). For that reason, I am not sure that flying the Confederate flag at battle memorials is a good idea, because I think that doing so could reasonably be interpreted as an endorsement of the Confederate cause. That said, I also do not think it wise to try to ignore or rewrite history. Would it be an acceptable solution to display the Confederate flag at battle memorials outdoors, beside or near the flagpole, but in a glass or other protective case? That way, an attempt would be made to display the flags of both combatants in the same place, without providing what any reasonable person could interpret as an endorsement of the Confederate cause. Higginsville, of course, however, is not a battle memorial but rather a memorial at the site of a Confederate cemetery and home. Should the Confederate flag fly there? I would say no, the American and Missouri flags would once again be honors enough if they are really American soldiers, but I could see how Confederate supporters might believe it OK to fly the Confederate flag there and at other Confederate memorials that are not battle memorials. I'd really rather not begin a verbal firefight with all you unreconstructed rebels, but as one of the few apparent Yankees on this list, I also didn't think I could let this pass. The CW really is a war that's never over. Tom Pearson

Friends, Ms. Holst's "explanation" for the removal of the Confederate battle flags at historic Missouri sites simply repeats the National Park Service's "new" thinking: all battlefields and cemeteries are now to be "interpretive" sites (i.e., where revisionist history is propounded) rather than hallowed ground (i.e., where visitors can form their own opinion of the historic event that took place there). It's just another attempt (alas, a seemingly successful one) for the politically correct to assure that no one has the opportunity to make an unbiased assessment of events. Yes, people and events and circumstances in our nation's past can be offensive to some, but it is our history nonetheless. Revisionists simply cannot understand that it is impossible to view (and judge) the past with a contemporary lens. And, what's worse, is they now have decided they know better than the rest of us what it is that is to be learned. Personally, I believe the abrupt removal of the Confederate battle flag at Missouri sites is revisionist intepretation at its worst. What better or more appropriate place to fly that flag than at cemeteries and battlefields where men of both sides fought and died for what they believed? One cannot make believe a philosophy did not exist by simply trying to erase the symbol from the national consciousness. I am offended. I am angry. And I am sad. And I vote. Nancy Bowen Athens, GA 6th generation Missourian

We should preserve Our History. We should keep the truth, not change it. Our children today has No idea what our history is all about, because they want to change it. I am all for keeping all the flags standing so they will know the history of it and our ancestors who were in it. I know from I have learned researching my ancestors, that they didn't want to fight the opposite side of each other.Orders came from the top of government. My heart goes out to those ancestors of that generations. I know all people of race needs to get along and quick blaming this geneations for what happen then. Its not my fault that Our distance ancestors had slaves. Yes, I plan to write to my Senator and Gephardt on my opinions and yes I will Vote No to Gephardt and other who want to do away with history. God bless to all.KayeMorrison Abram Researching: Morrison, Hampton, Bass, Hansen Indep. Avon Rep. Kaye's Kandles-owner [email protected]

Tom If you "personally don't think that Confederate soldiers were American soldiers," then why do you think an American and Missouri flag would honor them? Your statement confirms that only a Confederate battle flag can honor a Confederate soldier. Therefore, you are trying to ignore and rewrite history contrary to your other statement, "I also do not think it wise to try to ignore or rewrite history." As for your concern about a "verbal firefight" with "reconstructed Rebels" - do you think those words would be interpreted as anything but an insult? Especially, when you forgot to include your full title - you forgot the "history ignoring and rewriting" before "Yankee." Another point - If Confederate soldiers were not "American" soldiers, why were they given pensions? Denny Moore Proud Great Grandson of: [John] Richard Moore, Private, Company E, 41st Regiment, Georgia Infantry, CSA (wounded and captured at the Battle of Philadelphia, Tennessee; Released through prisoner exchange; Wounded twice during the battle of Lookout Mountain, Tennessee). George Barnett Williams, Private, Company "D", 7th Regiment, Kentucky Volunteers, USA, (lost all hearing in one ear and most of the hearing in the other ear, and ruptured}. James W. Legg, Major, Legg's Company, 43rd Regiment Enrolled Missouri Militia (also Private in the Mexican War). -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 6:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [MO-CW] Re: MO-CW-D Digest V03 #9 List members, Because several people responding in regards to the Gephardt controversy have stated that the Confederate flag should be flown at Confederate memorials because Confederate soldiers were also American soldiers, does it not follow that flying the American and Missouri flags at these memorials does them all the honor that is necessary? I personally don't think that Confederate soldiers were American soldiers, in the sense that they and their government were rebelling against the lawful government of the United States, and could have been tried for treason after the war if cooler heads in the Republican Party had not held sway and offered a blanket amnesty to lower-ranking soldiers and sailors of the Confederacy (which only became effective, by the way, after they took an oath of loyalty to the U.S. government). For that reason, I am not sure that flying the Confederate flag at battle memorials is a good idea, because I think that doing so could reasonably be interpreted as an endorsement of the Confederate cause. That said, I also do not think it wise to try to ignore or rewrite history. Would it be an acceptable solution to display the Confederate flag at battle memorials outdoors, beside or near the flagpole, but in a glass or other protective case? That way, an attempt would be made to display the flags of both combatants in the same place, without providing what any reasonable person could interpret as an endorsement of the Confederate cause. Higginsville, of course, however, is not a battle memorial but rather a memorial at the site of a Confederate cemetery and home. Should the Confederate flag fly there? I would say no, the American and Missouri flags would once again be honors enough if they are really American soldiers, but I could see how Confederate supporters might believe it OK to fly the Confederate flag there and at other Confederate memorials that are not battle memorials. I'd really rather not begin a verbal firefight with all you unreconstructed rebels, but as one of the few apparent Yankees on this list, I also didn't think I could let this pass. The CW really is a war that's never over. Tom Pearson

It is amazing how one letter can make more sense than all of the others added together. I am a combat veteren of the Korean War and I never heard one of my comrades say that they were fighting for their flag or for their country. We were simply sent there to kill " gooks " and take real estate and thats what we did. Jim Brookes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Thomas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 10:17 PM Subject: [MO-CW] Rally around our flag, Boys! Tear their's down!!!!!!! > Since we have been in wars with England, France, > Germany, Italy, Iraq, Viet Nam, and the list goes on > and on, we, the people who have suffered because of > these wars demand that you give equal disdain and > discretion against the flags of all of our former > enemies. > > The glorious Stars and Stripes, may the flag ever > wave, should not have to look down on any flag that > American blood was shed in destroying the evil that it > stood for. > > Please give equal attention to this matter. An > American veteran. > > ===== > > Harry S. Thomas (Stan.) > [email protected] > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > ==== MO-CW Mailing List ==== > "The one thing I never want to see again is a military parade. When I resigned from the army and went to a farm I was happy. When the rebellion came, I returned to the service because it was a duty. I had no thought of rank; all I did was try and make myself useful." > U.S. Grant > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

This was the response I received from the Mo. State Park spokesman. Guess I am getting old and slow of wits cause it didn't explain a thing to me, except so much political double speak. Mr. Barnes, Thank you for your comments on the issue of Confederate flags. The Civil War conflict in Missouri was an important aspect of our state's history. The Missouri Department of Natural Resources uses Confederate Memorial State Historic Site and Fort Davidson State Historic Site among others to tell this story. The department remains committed to telling this part of history, including the role of the Confederate soldiers who fought valiantly for what they believed in. The decision to lower the flags from the flagpoles does not reflect a change in this commitment. We will continue to use the flags as a part of our interpretation but will display them in a more appropriate historical context. By doing this, the flags will be displayed in a more educational manner and we can be assured that no one can be offended by our displaying of the flag. The decision to display the flags in a different manner is part of a wider assessment of interpretation the department has been looking at for over a year. A special committee has been established to reassess interpretive presentations in state parks and historic sites. We want to ensure that we tell all the stories in a way that informs, educates and inspires, and that we do it in a manner that will not be offensive to anyone. Again, thank you for your comments. Sue Holst Information Officer Missouri Department of Natural Resources Division of State Parks

I found the address for Rep. Gephardt posted on a website for all U.S. house incumbents. It was wrong. SORRY. Another address has been posted by another poster along with the Missouri Governor and the DNR and others. Lets hittem with emails and let them know how we feel. If the wheel don't squeak it won't get any grease. OHB