List members, For the past several days there have been a number of messages concerning the lack of information on burials and tombstones. I have mentioned this in the past but apparently there are many new members. Some basic information about cemeteries, concerns tombstones. Only about 60 -70 percent of burials are covered by a tombstone!. Why? They cost a pile of money and years ago many families couldn't afford them. I believe you will find many homemade tombstones, particularly in rural cemeteries. Then here in St. Louis you will find cemeteries where tombstones have been removed because they were damaged, some were toppled over and left on the ground and eventually covered over by dirt. I have relatives who were buried in one cemetery where the cemetery removed the stones because the family hadn't paid the Endowed/Perpetual Care. The there are the vandal damaged cemeteries, this is when many will find that it is the family's responsibility to either repair, replace or abandon the tombstone to the landfill. Then there are those instances where there is a MEMORIAL Stone, there is no burial. At Jefferson Barracks National Cemetery there are several of these in areas where no burials can be made due to the ground conditions, rock. Every veteran is authorized a tombstone, even those men and women lost at sea, or MIA and POW. For the lost grandfather, chances are he is buried right next to his wife and won't be found unless you open the grave, why not install the double headstone to at least acknowledge his existence? Of course there are cemeteries where this isn't always the case. St. Rose in St. Rose Illinois is an example. They follow the rule that you are buried as you die, in sequence, spouses will be found separated in this cemetery. When we removed the burials at Washington Park Cemetery, the tombstones were relocated to the new cemetery, if they weren't damaged, but they were not reset in an upright position, that cost too much money and the relocation effort was already costly, so the new cemetery laid the stone on the ground over the grave. These mass relocations were done at basically two cemeteries in the St. Louis area, both religious affiliated. The old tombstones were destroyed and dumped into landfills. There were some rather expensive tombstones destroyed because they had chips along the edges, some of these had photo images that were also destroyed. This could start another thread, but let me say at this point there are no laws to cover tombstones. There are cemetery rules, i.e. if damaged they can removed and destroyed. Should a VA stone be place in a non-VA cemetery the family will frequently pay the installation fee, if this stone is later destroyed in this non-VA cemetery the VA is to be called and they will either pick up the stone or tell the cemetery to destroy it, they will not normally provide a replacement stone. But at the VA cemetery they will install a new stone at government expense. You must also remember that tombstones frequently contain wrong information. Frequently this is the only place you have for information on the persons birth, however, treat it with some suspicion until you find some information closer to his birth. The best rule of thumb is to use the information closest to the event. For example, Death Certificates are not always correct when it comes to the Date of Birth, nor where the person or their parents were born. I have one family with 8 children. The father is listed a JOHN HERMAN, HERMAN JOHN, JOHN H., H. JOHN and HERMAN HENRY then HENRY HERMAN. His name was found to be JOHN HERMAN HENRY, Germans used all names, Given, Baptismal, Confirmation and then finally Surname. Naturally they can all be found misspelled, because the person providing the information couldn't read or write. My method of madness is: Tombstone Obit Death Certificate Wedding License, remember in Europe there may be two of these one Civil and one Religious. Baptismal Record Birth Record, remember in Europe there may be two of these one Civil and one Religious. Lest I forget Middle names are frequently found on Baptismal Records that even the parents weren't aware of. If the parents didn't provide the name of a saint the priest often used Mary for girls and Joseph for the boys. Use hard evidence, but remember that paper records were frequently destroyed by fire, it almost seems that many of the court houses had fires in 1890. Then the registration of births wasn't really required in Missouri until the late 1900 decade, if memory serves me right about 1907. Another bit of information you might keep in the back of your mind. In Missouri, it is the responsibility of the Funeral Director to fill out the Death Certificate. He does this by talking with the family and hospital. The Doctor is the one that signs the Death Certificate. Then again another problem. can enter here. My brother-in-law died at 11:00 PM. on a given date, but the on duty doctor didn't pronounce him dead unto 3:00 am the next day, guess what date is on his death certificate. I have a neighbor who was born in Illinois, the midwife who delivered him didn't like Illinois so she registered his birth in St. Louis County, Missouri. You will find in St. Louis several births recorded as: DePaul Hospital, St. Louis, City, Missouri and DePaul Hospital, Bridgeton, St. Louis County, Missouri. Both are correct the hospital moved. St. Luke's Hospital, St. John's Mercy and The Christian Hospitals have all relocated to the county area. Many people will say they were born in St. Louis, at St. Mary's Hospital, when they were really born in St. Louis County. This may sound picky, but it is a fact. Obituaries are another source of data, however, they are not always correct, they aren't free and yes I know some of you will say the funeral home pays for them. I ask you who pays the funeral home? Funeral Homes are a business and this is a subject for another time. It seems that many on this list ask about where a particular cemetery is located since they can't find it. GNIS is out there and doesn't contain a listing of all the cemeteries and darn few associated with churches. If you can't find the cemetery, look for the church. In the areas you are searching you will frequently find that the church was built in the middle of the churches cemetery, they also keep the records. In Linn Missouri St. George Cemetery was opened a few years back, not all the bodies were moved to the new cemetery the tombstones were and are now located in the back part of the new cemetery, the bodies are under the parking lot behind the church. Hey guys cemeteries are interesting, historical treasurers and should be taken care of forever. In the olden days people would have family picnics in them. Bill

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: hankinspd Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1779.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I lived in Mountain Grove for a number of years and my mother is buried in Lone Star Cemetery there, but I've never heard of a cemetery called Bethseda around that area. I'm wondering if you might be looking for a cemetery just over the Arkansas boarder outside Lincoln, AR. It's about 140 miles south of Mountain grove in Washington County. I had a time finding a site that shows the cemetery I'm talking about, but I finally found one. You can check it out to see if it's what your looking for. http://web.mac.com/mkconnors/iWeb/Site/Bethesda Cem.html Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Check for death records and marriage records at : www.usgenweb.com then go to the states you want, many are on line, also http://abish.byui.edu/specialCollections/westernStates/search.cfm this site has death records of western states, obits & marriages Utah death records are on line, www.sos.state.il.us/departments/archives/databases.html Illinois marriages, and death records many State archives have online databases and in usgenweb, some county sites have marriage, birth and death records. Arizona has some death records on line. It changes every week, so just keep looking. Good Luck!! Orita email: okirkman2@comcast.net -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Audrey" <audpen@yhti.net> > > > > I have found several death certificates that list people that are buried in > cemeteries that do not have their names listed in the cemetery books. Do > you suppose the people that surveyed these cemeteries would be interested > in adding those names to their book? Also does any other states offer > free death certificates like Missouri. I would be interested in having the > names of those states. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com [mailto:gc-gateway@rootsweb.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:49 AM > To: MO-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 & 1945-1956 > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: kq1969 > Surnames: > Classification: death > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1781/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > The Missouri Secretary of State has posted online the Missouri Death > Certificates for the years 1910-1934 and 1945-1956. The years between 1934 > and 1945 are suppose to be posted, later this year. 1957 will be available, > early next year. No date has been posted on the site for these years to be > available. Some late 1944 death certificates that were not filed until 1945 > are, also, available. They can be downloaded and printed out from this > location: > > http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/deathcertificates > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-CEMETERIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My cousin and i put a marker on our gr fathers grave over a year ago as my gr mother was left with children and couldnt and all moved away later ,he passed away in 1919 it took us 87 years , gone but not forgotten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheri Casper" <clcasper@sprynet.com> To: <mo-cemeteries@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 &1945-1956 >A lot of times people didn't have the funds to erect markers. In the case > of several members of my dad's family, there is no marker. The cemetery > office in Lafayette Co, MO had a fire so any paper records they had were > destroyed. So these people lay unknown in this cemetery. However, I have > found from obits and death certificates that they are definitely there. I > sure wish I knew whether my great-grandmother (unmarked) is buried next to > her husband (marked) because if I knew that with certainty, I would have a > new double marker erected. > > Also, in a lot of instances the markers are so old as to be nearly > unreadible with they are surveyed. > > CheriC > > -----Original Message----- > From: mo-cemeteries-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:mo-cemeteries-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Loretta Eichmann > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:46 PM > To: mo-cemeteries@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 > &1945-1956 > > > > My grandfather was not listed in any cemetery in Harrison county Mo. > But my mother kept saying he was next to his son in the old Blue Ridge > cemetery so I put a stone there .. A year or 2 later I found with the > on line death certificates he is there ,, ( put his death date as 1951 > as my mother told me. He died in 1952) Now the Genealogical Soc. has > the info and he is in the book > > Az has free death & birth certificates, With them if you just put in > the surname it will come up with mother with that name and there > children by the husbands surname .http://genealogy.az.gov/ > > Have fun . Each small thing we find and share helps the next person > > Loretta > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-CEMETERIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-CEMETERIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, Audrey, By all means give these people the documentation and let them add the names to the cemetery listings. Utah is a great state for making all the death certificates available on line as well as cemetery listings. Also their cemeteries are well maintained -clean, mowed, and old decaying stones are replaced by the historical societies. I just returned from a quest in Utah. http://historyresearch.utah.gov/indexes/index.html On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Audrey wrote: > I have found several death certificates that list people that are > buried in > cemeteries that do not have their names listed in the cemetery > books. Do > you suppose the people that surveyed these cemeteries would be > interested > in adding those names to their book? Also does any other states > offer > free death certificates like Missouri. I would be interested in > having the > names of those states. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com [mailto:gc-gateway@rootsweb.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:49 AM > To: MO-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 & > 1945-1956 > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: kq1969 > Surnames: > Classification: death > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1781/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > The Missouri Secretary of State has posted online the Missouri Death > Certificates for the years 1910-1934 and 1945-1956. The years > between 1934 > and 1945 are suppose to be posted, later this year. 1957 will be > available, > early next year. No date has been posted on the site for these > years to be > available. Some late 1944 death certificates that were not filed > until 1945 > are, also, available. They can be downloaded and printed out from this > location: > > http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/deathcertificates/ > > Important Note: > The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If > you would > like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link > above and > respond on the board. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-CEMETERIES- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

My grandfather was not listed in any cemetery in Harrison county Mo. But my mother kept saying he was next to his son in the old Blue Ridge cemetery so I put a stone there .. A year or 2 later I found with the on line death certificates he is there ,, ( put his death date as 1951 as my mother told me. He died in 1952) Now the Genealogical Soc. has the info and he is in the book Az has free death & birth certificates, With them if you just put in the surname it will come up with mother with that name and there children by the husbands surname .http://genealogy.az.gov/ Have fun . Each small thing we find and share helps the next person Loretta

I have found several death certificates that list people that are buried in cemeteries that do not have their names listed in the cemetery books. Do you suppose the people that surveyed these cemeteries would be interested in adding those names to their book? Also does any other states offer free death certificates like Missouri. I would be interested in having the names of those states. -----Original Message----- From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com [mailto:gc-gateway@rootsweb.com] Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:49 AM To: MO-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 & 1945-1956 This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: kq1969 Surnames: Classification: death Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1781/mb.ashx Message Board Post: The Missouri Secretary of State has posted online the Missouri Death Certificates for the years 1910-1934 and 1945-1956. The years between 1934 and 1945 are suppose to be posted, later this year. 1957 will be available, early next year. No date has been posted on the site for these years to be available. Some late 1944 death certificates that were not filed until 1945 are, also, available. They can be downloaded and printed out from this location: http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/deathcertificates

I have found several death certificates that list people that are buried in cemeteries that do not have their names listed in the cemetery books. Do you suppose the people that surveyed these cemeteries would be interested in adding those names to their book? Also does any other states offer free death certificates like Missouri. I would be interested in having the names of those states. -----Original Message----- From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com [mailto:gc-gateway@rootsweb.com] Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:49 AM To: MO-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 & 1945-1956 This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: kq1969 Surnames: Classification: death Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1781/mb.ashx Message Board Post: The Missouri Secretary of State has posted online the Missouri Death Certificates for the years 1910-1934 and 1945-1956. The years between 1934 and 1945 are suppose to be posted, later this year. 1957 will be available, early next year. No date has been posted on the site for these years to be available. Some late 1944 death certificates that were not filed until 1945 are, also, available. They can be downloaded and printed out from this location: http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/deathcertificates/ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

A lot of times people didn't have the funds to erect markers. In the case of several members of my dad's family, there is no marker. The cemetery office in Lafayette Co, MO had a fire so any paper records they had were destroyed. So these people lay unknown in this cemetery. However, I have found from obits and death certificates that they are definitely there. I sure wish I knew whether my great-grandmother (unmarked) is buried next to her husband (marked) because if I knew that with certainty, I would have a new double marker erected. Also, in a lot of instances the markers are so old as to be nearly unreadible with they are surveyed. CheriC -----Original Message----- From: mo-cemeteries-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mo-cemeteries-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Loretta Eichmann Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:46 PM To: mo-cemeteries@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MO-CEMETERIES] Missouri death certificates 1910-1934 &1945-1956 My grandfather was not listed in any cemetery in Harrison county Mo. But my mother kept saying he was next to his son in the old Blue Ridge cemetery so I put a stone there .. A year or 2 later I found with the on line death certificates he is there ,, ( put his death date as 1951 as my mother told me. He died in 1952) Now the Genealogical Soc. has the info and he is in the book Az has free death & birth certificates, With them if you just put in the surname it will come up with mother with that name and there children by the husbands surname .http://genealogy.az.gov/ Have fun . Each small thing we find and share helps the next person Loretta ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MO-CEMETERIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: kq1969 Surnames: Classification: death Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1781/mb.ashx Message Board Post: The Missouri Secretary of State has posted online the Missouri Death Certificates for the years 1910-1934 and 1945-1956. The years between 1934 and 1945 are suppose to be posted, later this year. 1957 will be available, early next year. No date has been posted on the site for these years to be available. Some late 1944 death certificates that were not filed until 1945 are, also, available. They can be downloaded and printed out from this location: http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/deathcertificates/ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: judigalpin Surnames: Petty, Sisemore, Hancock Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/130.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Jenn! Were there any headstones for PETTY, SISEMORE/SIZEMORE, GRAGG or HANCOCK? My family settled in Clay and Bates Counties which are close neighbors to Ray County. They might have stopped there first. Feel free to contact me at judigalpin2@aol.com Thanks a bunch! Judi Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: MissyCarroll69 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1749.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi again, No, Willard Cole is not in my line. Ira Cole's son, David L. Cole, had 2 sons; one drowned & had no children & the other son was my Dad...& I was an only child. Thanks again, Missy Cole Carroll Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Orlena39 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1749.2.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: No, as far as I know, there isn't a related connection with your Cole family. I don't know if the Cole family that were our friends were in the same family or not. My dad grew up with Willard Cole, but I didn't check your family to see if any made it to Galena, Cherokee County KS. I just enjoy research and helping others. So I try to help when I can. Orlena ~~~~~~ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: MissyCarroll69 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1749.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Orlena Thanks for your reply reg Madison county headstone photos. If you were referring to Janet Burger, I have her data & gave her my Cole information. I've used the sos/Mo site too. Are you connected to the Cole or Brewen lines. If so, we're lost cousins. My ancestor, Ira Buck Cole, married Mary Frances Brewen but Ira is never listed in any census & I've only been able to prove back to him. His son, David Lafayette Cole was my grandfather. One of Ira's daughters was Josie Bell Cole & she married a Rehkop. Ira's other daughter was Mary Eliz Cole & she married a Vaughn but I've never found her in any census either. I have the death certificates for all 3 of Ira's children. Thanks again for your reply. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Orlena39 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1749.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: If you'll click on her (View posts) Madison county Mo headstone photos MissyCarroll69 Posted: 15 Feb 2007 4:32AM GMT Classification: Query Surnames: Cole, Brewen You'll see this is another one about this cemetery and family. I even answered one about it's location before. http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1743.1/mb.ashx I answer so many I can't remember them all. I also don't remember to check the previous posts every time. Orlena ~~~~~~ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Orlena39 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1749.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Just in case you don't have the information already, some one has also placed them in rootsweb's WorldConnect family trees. The information may or may not be correct, as usual research to see if it's correct. William Brewen and Related Families Entries: 4764 Updated: 2007-05-10 20:13:02 UTC (Thu) Contact: janet http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=081440&id=I0678 If you haven't already discovered it, the Death Records on this site can be a real help. Please don't assume that the information all pertains to the reporting County and State. The cemetery listed only by a name, may today be gone, or under another name. It may also be in another County or State. http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/ordb.asp ~~~~~ Orlena ~~~~~~ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ppruitt2 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/1749.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: You might try posting a photo request on the Find A Grave website. Here is a link to the Hickory Nut Mine cemetery page. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=2207673&CScnty=1458&CSsr=21& After you have registered with the site, you can request the photos you are wanting. There may be volunteers in that area who would be happy to get those photos. Hope this helps, Pearle Pruitt Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: JennZunker Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/605.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hello, Do you still need help finding Brockman Cemetery? I would be happy to help. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: JennZunker Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/130.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Do you still need information of Petty Cemetery? I was just out there today and have photos. of all stones that could be found. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

no nothing about this... I am in Pike county Mo. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: <gc-gateway@rootsweb.com> To: <MO-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [MO-CEMETERIES] help with finding the Brockman Cemetery. > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: JennZunker > Surnames: > Classification: queries > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.cemetery.us.mo/605.1/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > Hello, > > Do you still need help finding Brockman Cemetery? I would be happy to > help. > > Important Note: > The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you > would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link > above and respond on the board. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MO-CEMETERIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >