Okay, Karen says just for the past 40-50 years a cert is required. I don't quite understand the rationale considering 1954 - which is 50 years ago if you start with 2004 to calculate is fairly recent time frame. What I would like to know is what happens when a death is NOT recorded? In reviewing the vitals from 1867-1837 that are on film, I have noted that there are lots and lots of incidents where a death that occurred in Oakland county, or should have occurred in Oakland county anyway, is not recorded. Granted by 1954 I would think that most people should be recorded, but the question comes down to what if it isn't? If I have a death certificate, I might not be so inclined to get a probate for the individual, even though probates are one means of proof, not only of the death, but who the actual heirs are. However, when cost is a factor -- the death certificate is certainly cheaper. However, when I have ordered the probates in the past, it was for direct line family only and not for my collateral lines and luckily, at least for me, I've got all those before these crazy rules came into play. I wonder if this same requirement of a death certifcate holds true if you order by mail? Can anyone answer that? Do you have to send for the death certificate and then send a copy of it with your request by mail? Once again I am in a quandry about the death certificate requirement. It still does not make sense that you have to prove to the probate court that the file you are requesting is that person and they are, in fact, deceased. Seems rather a silly rule and it needs to be questioned. Is there a statute in the Michigan Probate Code that makes this a requirement for all Michigan Probate Courts? Or is this just a quirk of Oakland County Probate Court? I tried checking for the Michigan Probate Code online where I could look at the probate law itself, but could not find a website that allowed such a search. Here in California there is such a website and I have used it by going through a university law library website. But could not locate such a cite for Michigan. I did learn while searching for a Michigan probate code website that the probate code was revised and became effective April 1, 2000, so perhaps this rule is a result of those changes. But it almost sounds like it might be a local court rule. If that is the case, perhaps one of our local researchers in the Oakland Probate Court area could go to the courthouse and ask to see the local rules of the probate court and specifically the rule that sets forth the requirement for a copy of a death certificate be produced before obtaining a probate file. I still contend that a probate file is a public record and can be accessed by anyone going to the counter and asking to look at the file or film that has the record without the need to produce a death certificate. If there is a file, you should be able to look at it. So, if someone can go there and get the requirement in writing and then take the time to retype it on this list, that would satisfiy my curiosity about this requirement. If it is just a clerk's thinking you need it, that just doesn't fly. Ask for something in writing either from the Probate Code books, or something on Court letterhead. You may have to ask to see the court administrator to have that person produce it, then do so. Just having the "say-so" of a clerk doesn't fly. The rule must be in writing and it must be uniformly imposed by all the clerks, not just one or two quirky ones. I don't know how high up the ladder you need to go to get this resolved, but perhaps going to one of the Probate Court Judge's clerk/secretary's might be needed to get this issue resolved. You might learn there is no such rule in writing and if that's the case, the judge needs to be informed that his/her clerks at the counter are imposing a requirement that they should not be so that the judge can set the clerk's straight via the court administrator. Christie Trapp

After I wrote the last note on this topic I got a note from someone that has gone to the Oakland County Courthouse and requested a probate file and it was from, I believe Bef the 1950's, and they asked her for a death certificate. I was flabbergasted. Then she also stated, and she's on this list, that once she produced the certificates, they decided how much and what parts of the file she could copy. So obviously there is a lot of discrepancy in how the different clerks handle this stuff. Recently most of my work has been out of Oakland County so its been a few months since I've had to deal with the folks in probate. Cathy if you are "lurking" out there, you should share the story you shared with me. Actually if you think this is bad, try ordering anything probate out of DETROIT. UGH! It makes no sense I agree with Christie, but it also makes me SO glad I have no ancestors in Oakland County. What a nightmare! And with the price of Vital records in Michigan possibly increasing in the next year to $30+/- you have to wonder what is going to happen to the cost of probate files next? -----Original Message----- From: ChristieTrapp@aol.com [mailto:ChristieTrapp@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 2:30 PM To: MIOAKLAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MIOAKLAN] Probate Files Okay, Karen says just for the past 40-50 years a cert is required. I don't quite understand the rationale considering 1954 - which is 50 years ago if you start with 2004 to calculate is fairly recent time frame. What I would like to know is what happens when a death is NOT recorded? In reviewing the vitals from 1867-1837 that are on film, I have noted that there are lots and lots of incidents where a death that occurred in Oakland county, or should have occurred in Oakland county anyway, is not recorded. Granted by 1954 I would think that most people should be recorded, but the question comes down to what if it isn't? If I have a death certificate, I might not be so inclined to get a probate for the individual, even though probates are one means of proof, not only of the death, but who the actual heirs are. However, when cost is a factor -- the death certificate is certainly cheaper. However, when I have ordered the probates in the past, it was for direct line family only and not for my collateral lines and luckily, at least for me, I've got all those before these crazy rules came into play. I wonder if this same requirement of a death certifcate holds true if you order by mail? Can anyone answer that? Do you have to send for the death certificate and then send a copy of it with your request by mail? Once again I am in a quandry about the death certificate requirement. It still does not make sense that you have to prove to the probate court that the file you are requesting is that person and they are, in fact, deceased. Seems rather a silly rule and it needs to be questioned. Is there a statute in the Michigan Probate Code that makes this a requirement for all Michigan Probate Courts? Or is this just a quirk of Oakland County Probate Court? I tried checking for the Michigan Probate Code online where I could look at the probate law itself, but could not find a website that allowed such a search. Here in California there is such a website and I have used it by going through a university law library website. But could not locate such a cite for Michigan. I did learn while searching for a Michigan probate code website that the probate code was revised and became effective April 1, 2000, so perhaps this rule is a result of those changes. But it almost sounds like it might be a local court rule. If that is the case, perhaps one of our local researchers in the Oakland Probate Court area could go to the courthouse and ask to see the local rules of the probate court and specifically the rule that sets forth the requirement for a copy of a death certificate be produced before obtaining a probate file. I still contend that a probate file is a public record and can be accessed by anyone going to the counter and asking to look at the file or film that has the record without the need to produce a death certificate. If there is a file, you should be able to look at it. So, if someone can go there and get the requirement in writing and then take the time to retype it on this list, that would satisfiy my curiosity about this requirement. If it is just a clerk's thinking you need it, that just doesn't fly. Ask for something in writing either from the Probate Code books, or something on Court letterhead. You may have to ask to see the court administrator to have that person produce it, then do so. Just having the "say-so" of a clerk doesn't fly. The rule must be in writing and it must be uniformly imposed by all the clerks, not just one or two quirky ones. I don't know how high up the ladder you need to go to get this resolved, but perhaps going to one of the Probate Court Judge's clerk/secretary's might be needed to get this issue resolved. You might learn there is no such rule in writing and if that's the case, the judge needs to be informed that his/her clerks at the counter are imposing a requirement that they should not be so that the judge can set the clerk's straight via the court administrator. Christie Trapp ==== MIOAKLAN Mailing List ==== You can contact the listowner at Judy@BirdGenealogy.org ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Christie, Well said!! I still have yet to learn if they charge extra to bring a book up from their basement. I live in New Mexico and asked a cousin who lives in Waterford to check on this. She said she would, but never did. Be great if Oakland County had a library that does like the Mt. Clemons library does. I am grateful for what they do. Somewhat related to this subject is access to marriage records in El Paso County Texas. One can access them only on Tues, Wed, Thurs between 8 and 10:30 a. m. You are not allowed to view the books, you must give the clerk the exact year, the names and she goes to the back and does a search. If any of our list members should ever need a look up in Otero County NM let me know I would be glad to do it. Otero County Courthouse is taxpayer oriented. Ann in New Mexico ----- Original Message ----- From: <ChristieTrapp@aol.com> To: <MIOAKLAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 12:29 PM Subject: [MIOAKLAN] Probate Files > Okay, Karen says just for the past 40-50 years a cert is required. I > don't > quite understand the rationale considering 1954 - which is 50 years ago if > you > start with 2004 to calculate is fairly recent time frame. > > What I would like to know is what happens when a death is NOT recorded? > In > reviewing the vitals from 1867-1837 that are on film, I have noted that > there > are lots and lots of incidents where a death that occurred in Oakland > county, > or should have occurred in Oakland county anyway, is not recorded. > Granted by > 1954 I would think that most people should be recorded, but the question > comes > down to what if it isn't? > > If I have a death certificate, I might not be so inclined to get a probate > for the individual, even though probates are one means of proof, not only > of the > death, but who the actual heirs are. However, when cost is a factor -- > the > death certificate is certainly cheaper. > > However, when I have ordered the probates in the past, it was for direct > line > family only and not for my collateral lines and luckily, at least for me, > I've got all those before these crazy rules came into play. > > I wonder if this same requirement of a death certifcate holds true if you > order by mail? Can anyone answer that? Do you have to send for the death > certificate and then send a copy of it with your request by mail? > > Once again I am in a quandry about the death certificate requirement. It > still does not make sense that you have to prove to the probate court that > the > file you are requesting is that person and they are, in fact, deceased. > Seems > rather a silly rule and it needs to be questioned. Is there a statute in > the > Michigan Probate Code that makes this a requirement for all Michigan > Probate > Courts? Or is this just a quirk of Oakland County Probate Court? I tried > checking for the Michigan Probate Code online where I could look at the > probate law > itself, but could not find a website that allowed such a search. Here in > California there is such a website and I have used it by going through a > university law library website. But could not locate such a cite for > Michigan. > > I did learn while searching for a Michigan probate code website that the > probate code was revised and became effective April 1, 2000, so perhaps > this rule > is a result of those changes. But it almost sounds like it might be a > local > court rule. > > If that is the case, perhaps one of our local researchers in the Oakland > Probate Court area could go to the courthouse and ask to see the local > rules of > the probate court and specifically the rule that sets forth the > requirement for > a copy of a death certificate be produced before obtaining a probate file. > > I still contend that a probate file is a public record and can be accessed > by > anyone going to the counter and asking to look at the file or film that > has > the record without the need to produce a death certificate. If there is a > file, you should be able to look at it. > > So, if someone can go there and get the requirement in writing and then > take > the time to retype it on this list, that would satisfiy my curiosity about > this requirement. > > If it is just a clerk's thinking you need it, that just doesn't fly. Ask > for > something in writing either from the Probate Code books, or something on > Court letterhead. You may have to ask to see the court administrator to > have that > person produce it, then do so. Just having the "say-so" of a clerk > doesn't > fly. The rule must be in writing and it must be uniformly imposed by all > the > clerks, not just one or two quirky ones. > > I don't know how high up the ladder you need to go to get this resolved, > but > perhaps going to one of the Probate Court Judge's clerk/secretary's might > be > needed to get this issue resolved. You might learn there is no such rule > in > writing and if that's the case, the judge needs to be informed that > his/her > clerks at the counter are imposing a requirement that they should not be > so that > the judge can set the clerk's straight via the court administrator. > > Christie Trapp > > > ==== MIOAKLAN Mailing List ==== > You can contact the listowner at Judy@BirdGenealogy.org > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > >