Hi I am a newcomer to this list. I have been trying to solve this mystery for over thirty years and wonder if anyone on this list can help me. The search has been complicated by family stories that don't stack up but which all needed to be checked out. I have also found it extremely difficult to obtain information from Tasmania. This is what I know:- Extract of entries in an Old Parochial Register, Parish of Leith (South), County of Midlothian (Edinburgh) 91877. 1823 October 13, Matthew Muir, Shoemaker, Calton, and Marion Carmichael residing in Calton and daughter of James Carmichael, Cabinet Maker, Edinburgh, after proclamation of Bans were married by the Rev. Thos. Aitchison. Marion was born/baptised at Saint Cuthbert's, Edinburgh, 13 August 1801. Matthew was born at Linlithgow 15 November 1799. He was christened Matthew Bailey MUIR. In 1834 Marion and Matthew migrated to Tasmania from Leith. It appears that they travelled separately but I have been unable to positively confirm the following details. Matthew travelled on the "Isabella" arriving at Hobart on 23 May 1834 with two children, James, born before 1829 (he was "Full age" when he married in 1850) and Peter, born about 1830 (he was 62 when he died in 1892). Marion travelled on the "Numa" arriving at Hobart on 24 October 1834 with two children, John and Matthew, there was possibly a third, Charles. Marion died "after a long and lingering illness" in 1843 from "consumption" which usually meant tuberculosis. Matthew remarried in 1845 to my gg grandmother. There were "four young children" in 1837 when Matthew wrote to the Lieutenant Governor requesting that a convict bootmaker be assigned to him. I have only been able to trace Peter and John with any certainty - they were both mentioned in their stepmother's will. I have searched Scotland's People several times for any children of Matthew and Marion, using as many variant spellings as I can think of, but found nothing. I have also tried Family Search. Are there any other sources that I could search? I believe that Matthew and Marion were members of Saint John's Presbyterian Church at Hobart but they might not have been adherents of the established church in Scotland. Are there any records available for the dissenting Presbyterian churches? I have looked at the LDS Library catalogue but there is so much there that I don't know where to start, maybe someone can give me some guidance? Always hopeful, Ian Westergaard, New Zealand.

Hello Ian,             As you will be aware there period you are searching in Scotland is prior to statutory registration which means that records of christenings which have survived only occurred in circumstances where a) the child was christened AND b) the record survived. In England some of my forebears were christened in a job lot and I assumed this occurred when a new and enthusiastic vicar coaxed the family into christening all the children born in the last few years presumably when his predecessor had run out of steam, given up on the family or otherwise neglect to collect them into the fold.  Equally I can only assume some families evaded this process or could not afford it.         So records for the full number of children born to Matthew and Marion may not exist anywhere. There is also the possibility that children travelling to Hobart with either Matthew or Marion could be children born without the marriage- if you have no date of birth they may have a diiferent other parent.           The scottish naming pattern may help you. The most likely names of the first sic xhildren born to a couple are. the paternal grandfathers name (perhaps Peter or John from your list), the maternal garndfather (your information gives that as James) and the father;s name (Matthew).  The girls would be maternal grandmother, paternal grandmother and mother. You have given us no girls names, so if you know the mothers of Matthew and Marion you have two more nmaes to hunt for.        I note a Matthew Bailey Muir is found on google as the parent of Thomas Muir. New Zealand photographer - is this Matthew b1799, his son Matthew or just a coincidence?   Good luck   Moira   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lynne The OPR birth index on Scotlands People has the birth/baptism of a Duncan McCarter in Kilsyth, Stirlingshire on 26 May 1771. He was the son of Donald McCarter and Jean McDonald. Kilsyth is north east of Glasgow, and about 30 to 35 miles from Edinburgh. Rhoda

Hi Lynne I can't be sure about the ferry, but it wouldn't surprise me. There used to be a ferry service between Edinburgh (South Queensferry) and North Queensferry on the Fife coast. In fact it was still going strong as a car ferry when I was a girl, before they built the Forth Road Bridge. But I think it would have been just as quick to walk, or as you say, jump on a cart. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynne Ingalls" <Lynne.Ingalls@comcast.net> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN]Irregularmarriages:Duncan M'Carterand ElisabethSimpson > Rhoda - Can you imagine today walking 20 miles (40 mi round trip)? It > hurts my back to think of it. I suppose they could have hitched a ride on > a > cart. There must have been a lot of commerce between Whittingehame farms > and Edinburgh. Was there a ferry from Dunbar? > > Lynne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> > To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN]Irregularmarriages:Duncan M'Carterand > ElisabethSimpson > > >> Tammy and Lynne >> >> I believe that Banns were required to be read in the parish of each of >> the >> partners to the marriage. This is what made me think that the marriage >> would >> have been deemed 'irregular' if the Banns had not been read in the Parish >> of >> Whittinghame being the home parish of one or both of the partners to the >> marriage. Whittinghame is actually not all that far from Edinburgh - >> probably between 20 to 30 miles. I am told that in the 1860s/'70s, my >> Great >> Grandfather used to walk from his lodgings in Glasgow to his family home >> in >> Kilbarchan, Renfrewshire every Friday evening and walk back to Glasgow >> every >> Monday morning. That is a distance of about 20 miles. >> >> Rhoda >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tammy Mitchell" <ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca> >> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregularmarriages:Duncan M'Carterand >> ElisabethSimpson >> >> >>> emial me >>> >>> ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca, I'll see if I can see anything. Sometimes >>> the banns were held where one person of the couple were and the marriage >>> was held where the other lived. >>> >>> Tammy >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Tammy and Lynne I believe that Banns were required to be read in the parish of each of the partners to the marriage. This is what made me think that the marriage would have been deemed 'irregular' if the Banns had not been read in the Parish of Whittinghame being the home parish of one or both of the partners to the marriage. Whittinghame is actually not all that far from Edinburgh - probably between 20 to 30 miles. I am told that in the 1860s/'70s, my Great Grandfather used to walk from his lodgings in Glasgow to his family home in Kilbarchan, Renfrewshire every Friday evening and walk back to Glasgow every Monday morning. That is a distance of about 20 miles. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tammy Mitchell" <ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregularmarriages:Duncan M'Carterand ElisabethSimpson > emial me > > ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca, I'll see if I can see anything. Sometimes > the banns were held where one person of the couple were and the marriage > was held where the other lived. > > Tammy

Rhoda - Can you imagine today walking 20 miles (40 mi round trip)? It hurts my back to think of it. I suppose they could have hitched a ride on a cart. There must have been a lot of commerce between Whittingehame farms and Edinburgh. Was there a ferry from Dunbar? Lynne ----- Original Message ----- From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN]Irregularmarriages:Duncan M'Carterand ElisabethSimpson > Tammy and Lynne > > I believe that Banns were required to be read in the parish of each of the > partners to the marriage. This is what made me think that the marriage > would > have been deemed 'irregular' if the Banns had not been read in the Parish > of > Whittinghame being the home parish of one or both of the partners to the > marriage. Whittinghame is actually not all that far from Edinburgh - > probably between 20 to 30 miles. I am told that in the 1860s/'70s, my > Great > Grandfather used to walk from his lodgings in Glasgow to his family home > in > Kilbarchan, Renfrewshire every Friday evening and walk back to Glasgow > every > Monday morning. That is a distance of about 20 miles. > > Rhoda > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tammy Mitchell" <ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca> > To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregularmarriages:Duncan M'Carterand > ElisabethSimpson > > >> emial me >> >> ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca, I'll see if I can see anything. Sometimes >> the banns were held where one person of the couple were and the marriage >> was held where the other lived. >> >> Tammy > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Lynne One explanation is that one or both of the parties to the marriage came from the parish of Whittinghame but that they had their banns read in Edinburgh only. Perhaps they left Whittinghame for Edinburgh in order to be married because of parental disapproval. Rhoda

emial me ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca, I'll see if I can see anything. Sometimes the banns were held where one person of the couple were and the marriage was held where the other lived. Tammy On 16/06/2010 9:44 AM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > Tammy - I was kind of wondering the same thing. Or maybe his parents lived > in Edinburgh and he wanted them to attend? It all a mystery until I find > more information. > > Thanks again for the interest, > > Lynne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tammy Mitchell"<ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca> > To:<midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages:Duncan M'Carterand > ElisabethSimpson

Tammy - I was kind of wondering the same thing. Or maybe his parents lived in Edinburgh and he wanted them to attend? It all a mystery until I find more information. Thanks again for the interest, Lynne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tammy Mitchell" <ancestry@ripandrevmedia.ca> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages:Duncan M'Carterand ElisabethSimpson > That makes me think that maybe Duncan had been previously married... > since the same thing happened for his last marriage. > > Tammy > > > On 16/06/2010 9:18 AM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: >> Brigid, Tammy, and Rhoda - Thank you each for your comments. It gives >> me >> something to think about - why Duncan would need his banns read >> elsewhere. I >> don't know what was in his background that would prevent him from having >> banns read at Whittingehame. Like you mentioned, it was quite a trek to >> Edinburgh. Duncan and Elizabeth had a daughter, Jean b. 9 Feb 1798. I >> don't know if Elizabeth and Jean died shortly thereafter, but Duncan >> remarried again in 1802 at Edinburgh to an Agnes Barclay from Dunbar, and >> he >> was rebuked and fined again by the Whittingehame parish for another >> irregular marriage. Then later he died and left poor Agnes with 6 - 7 >> kids >> for the parish to support. I wonder if the College Church would have >> published the banns for either/both marriages? I did not find the banns >> on-line, only the marriage records. Because I'm trying to find Duncan's >> parents, I am interested in where he may have originated. >> >> Lynne in Tucson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "CandROverson"<overson12@btinternet.com> >> To:<midlothian@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages:Duncan M'Carter and >> ElisabethSimpson >> >> >> >>> Hello Lynne >>> >>> One explanation is that one or both of the parties to the marriage came >>> from >>> the parish of Whittinghame but that they had their banns read in >>> Edinburgh >>> only. Perhaps they left Whittinghame for Edinburgh in order to be >>> married >>> because of parental disapproval. >>> >>> Rhoda >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That makes me think that maybe Duncan had been previously married... since the same thing happened for his last marriage. Tammy On 16/06/2010 9:18 AM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > Brigid, Tammy, and Rhoda - Thank you each for your comments. It gives me > something to think about - why Duncan would need his banns read elsewhere. I > don't know what was in his background that would prevent him from having > banns read at Whittingehame. Like you mentioned, it was quite a trek to > Edinburgh. Duncan and Elizabeth had a daughter, Jean b. 9 Feb 1798. I > don't know if Elizabeth and Jean died shortly thereafter, but Duncan > remarried again in 1802 at Edinburgh to an Agnes Barclay from Dunbar, and he > was rebuked and fined again by the Whittingehame parish for another > irregular marriage. Then later he died and left poor Agnes with 6 - 7 kids > for the parish to support. I wonder if the College Church would have > published the banns for either/both marriages? I did not find the banns > on-line, only the marriage records. Because I'm trying to find Duncan's > parents, I am interested in where he may have originated. > > Lynne in Tucson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "CandROverson"<overson12@btinternet.com> > To:<midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:46 AM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages:Duncan M'Carter and > ElisabethSimpson > > > >> Hello Lynne >> >> One explanation is that one or both of the parties to the marriage came >> from >> the parish of Whittinghame but that they had their banns read in Edinburgh >> only. Perhaps they left Whittinghame for Edinburgh in order to be married >> because of parental disapproval. >> >> Rhoda >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Brigid, Tammy, and Rhoda - Thank you each for your comments. It gives me something to think about - why Duncan would need his banns read elsewhere. I don't know what was in his background that would prevent him from having banns read at Whittingehame. Like you mentioned, it was quite a trek to Edinburgh. Duncan and Elizabeth had a daughter, Jean b. 9 Feb 1798. I don't know if Elizabeth and Jean died shortly thereafter, but Duncan remarried again in 1802 at Edinburgh to an Agnes Barclay from Dunbar, and he was rebuked and fined again by the Whittingehame parish for another irregular marriage. Then later he died and left poor Agnes with 6 - 7 kids for the parish to support. I wonder if the College Church would have published the banns for either/both marriages? I did not find the banns on-line, only the marriage records. Because I'm trying to find Duncan's parents, I am interested in where he may have originated. Lynne in Tucson ----- Original Message ----- From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:46 AM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages:Duncan M'Carter and ElisabethSimpson > Hello Lynne > > One explanation is that one or both of the parties to the marriage came > from > the parish of Whittinghame but that they had their banns read in Edinburgh > only. Perhaps they left Whittinghame for Edinburgh in order to be married > because of parental disapproval. > > Rhoda > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lynne, I just googled "irregular marriages Scotland" (without quotes) and it came up as a hit that I clicked on it went directly to the article. Note that it is on the UK Ancestry site, not the US one. I just tried it from the email I sent and it did go right to the article as well, so I will reattach the link here so you might try it again. Hope this helps, Brigid http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 In case it doesn't work, I am cutting and pasting some of the article below as well: A regular marriage took place before a church minister following the reading of banns. An irregular marriage came about in one of three ways: by mutual agreement, or by a public promise followed by consummation, or by cohabitation and repute. In all cases, for regular and irregular marriages, both bride and groom had to be free to marry, not within forbidden degrees of kinship and over the age of consent (12 for brides and 14 for grooms). Marriage Registers In the Scottish church, "marriage" registers are usually registers of the proclamation of banns; sometimes the marriage is recorded as well. Proclamations were often read in the parishes of the bride and the groom, helpful to genealogists. Sometimes irregular marriages were recorded in the kirk session records because a fine or some other discipline was imposed. In a lot of cases the marriage has no record at all and it has been suggested the rate of unrecorded irregular marriages may be as high as 30 percent (Leneman, L. “Marriage North of the Border”). An Increase in Regular Marriages The number of irregular marriages increased after 1689 when William III and his government approved the disestablishment of the Episcopalian church in Scotland. At least two-thirds of the Episcopal ministers were unemployed and many went to Edinburgh to seek other forms of work. Some went into business marrying people, those who did not want banns proclaimed or chose not to be married in their home parish but wanted some kind of service with a minister. Edinburgh was the center for most irregular marriages and after the 1730s the ministers were not necessarily Episcopal. According to law, a minister performing irregular marriages could be disciplined, even transported. However, this neither stopped the ministers nor put an end to irregular marriages. There was for a time a fashion for marrying in an irregular way. Needless to say, all was not happiness and bliss. There were disputes as to whether a marriage was legal. The Commissary Court of Edinburgh from 1560 to 1830 had the authority to find whether or not a marriage had taken place. Because marriage ceased to be a sacrament in 1560, divorce in Scotland could be granted from that date. The commissary court handled divorce cases as well. Decisions could be appealed to the Court of Session and, after the union with England in 1707, to the House of Lords; obviously a legal route taken only by the wealthy. Conclusion Scottish marriage law allowed couples to keep their options open and they did take advantage of being able to marry irregularly, especially in the 1700s. The numbers dropped in the 1800s and change came in 1939, when only the habit and repute form of irregular marriage continued to be recognized by the law. As for Gretna Green its fame dates from 1754 when Lord Hardwicke's Act came into effect with the purpose of eliminating clandestine marriages in England. Gretna became a popular destination for runaway couples and remained so long after the law changed the residency requirements in 1856. Further Reading "Scottish Ancestry: Research Methods for Family Historians," by Sherry Irvine (Ancestry, 2003) Scottish Family History, by David Moody (GPC, 1988) "Marriage North of the Border," by Leah Leneman, History Today, p. 20-25, April 2002. On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > Thanks, Bridid. For some reason, I cannot get into the first article > although I am subscribed to Ancestry.com. Is there another way to > view it? > The second article doesn't quite explain why a marriage in one > church would > be considered irregular by another. As far as I know the College > Kirk was a > Church of Scotland church. Would the church in Edinburgh have > allowed a > marriage without banns? > > Lynne in Tucson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brigid O'Donnell" <mbod@erols.com> > To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:05 PM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages > > >> Lynne - >> check this article out for some explanation (no fee required) of >> irregular marriages: >> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 >> and this: >> http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/ >> >> The first article specifically mentions that Edinburgh was the >> "center >> for most irregular marriages" >> >> So one possibility would be if they were married in a church but did >> not have banns called as per usual custom. It was not unusual for a >> couple with an irregular marriage occuring in any one of the 3 or >> more >> ways described, to be called in front of the church elders and fined. >> >> Good luck, >> Brigid >> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: >> >>> Hello - I am new to the list, and I'm wondering if someone could >>> answer a question for me about irregular marriages in Scotland. I >>> found a marriage record for Duncan M'Carter and Elisabeth Simpson on >>> 31 Oct 1796 in Edinburgh. Then I found they were rebuked by the >>> minister in Whittingehame for an irregular marriage. If they were >>> married in a church in Edinburgh, why would they be rebuked by the >>> parish in Whittingehame? And why would they be considered residents >>> in both parishes? >>> M'Carter, Duncan, labourer, College Kirk p., and Elisabeth, same p., >>> d. of deased John Simpson, baker at Dunbar married at Trinity >>> College Kirk, 31 Oct 1796. From the Register of Marriages for the >>> Parish of Edinburgh. >>> >>> Whittingehame Register of Marriage - 1796 Nov 20. The Session >>> being met & constitute by Prayer. Present the Minister Archd Storie >>> & Jas Archibald elders, compear'd before them Duncan McCarter & >>> Elizth Simpson both in the Parish acknowledged their Irregular >>> Marriage and produced their lines dated Edinburgh 31 Oct 1796. They >>> were rebuked by the Minister & exhorted to live as man & wife. >>> >>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Lynne in Tucson, AZ >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Hi, if you have an ancestry membersip only (not international) change the url from http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 to http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 that should work for you. Tammy On 15/06/2010 3:25 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > Thanks, Bridid. For some reason, I cannot get into the first article > although I am subscribed to Ancestry.com. Is there another way to view it? > The second article doesn't quite explain why a marriage in one church would > be considered irregular by another. As far as I know the College Kirk was a > Church of Scotland church. Would the church in Edinburgh have allowed a > marriage without banns? > > Lynne in Tucson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brigid O'Donnell"<mbod@erols.com> > To:<midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:05 PM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages > > > >> Lynne - >> check this article out for some explanation (no fee required) of >> irregular marriages: >> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 >> and this: >> http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/ >> >> The first article specifically mentions that Edinburgh was the "center >> for most irregular marriages" >> >> So one possibility would be if they were married in a church but did >> not have banns called as per usual custom. It was not unusual for a >> couple with an irregular marriage occuring in any one of the 3 or more >> ways described, to be called in front of the church elders and fined. >> >> Good luck, >> Brigid

Lynne - check this article out for some explanation (no fee required) of irregular marriages: http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 and this: http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/ The first article specifically mentions that Edinburgh was the "center for most irregular marriages" So one possibility would be if they were married in a church but did not have banns called as per usual custom. It was not unusual for a couple with an irregular marriage occuring in any one of the 3 or more ways described, to be called in front of the church elders and fined. Good luck, Brigid On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > Hello - I am new to the list, and I'm wondering if someone could > answer a question for me about irregular marriages in Scotland. I > found a marriage record for Duncan M'Carter and Elisabeth Simpson on > 31 Oct 1796 in Edinburgh. Then I found they were rebuked by the > minister in Whittingehame for an irregular marriage. If they were > married in a church in Edinburgh, why would they be rebuked by the > parish in Whittingehame? And why would they be considered residents > in both parishes? > M'Carter, Duncan, labourer, College Kirk p., and Elisabeth, same p., > d. of deased John Simpson, baker at Dunbar married at Trinity > College Kirk, 31 Oct 1796. From the Register of Marriages for the > Parish of Edinburgh. > > Whittingehame Register of Marriage - 1796 Nov 20. The Session > being met & constitute by Prayer. Present the Minister Archd Storie > & Jas Archibald elders, compear'd before them Duncan McCarter & > Elizth Simpson both in the Parish acknowledged their Irregular > Marriage and produced their lines dated Edinburgh 31 Oct 1796. They > were rebuked by the Minister & exhorted to live as man & wife. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Lynne in Tucson, AZ > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Brigid - Thanks so much. The link worked this time. I have a full membership to Ancestry, so should have access to both Ancesty UK and the U.S. one. I'm just now figuring out how to use the UK one. I read the article, but I still don't understand how Duncan and Elizabeth were married in the College Kirk in Edinburgh as well as fined in Whittingehame for an irregular marriage. If the marriage were performed by someone other than the minister of the church, surely it wouldn't have been recorded in the marriage records? Duncan was fined a second time for another irregular marriage a few years later, so I assume Elizabeth must have died. The Kirk Session record says the same thing about his second marriage, that he and his second wife showed their "lines" from a marriage in Edinburgh. I haven't been able to locate that record though. All very strange. Lynne in Tucson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brigid O'Donnell" <mbod@erols.com> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages Lynne, I just googled "irregular marriages Scotland" (without quotes) and it came up as a hit that I clicked on it went directly to the article. Note that it is on the UK Ancestry site, not the US one. I just tried it from the email I sent and it did go right to the article as well, so I will reattach the link here so you might try it again. Hope this helps, Brigid http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 In case it doesn't work, I am cutting and pasting some of the article below as well: A regular marriage took place before a church minister following the reading of banns. An irregular marriage came about in one of three ways: by mutual agreement, or by a public promise followed by consummation, or by cohabitation and repute. In all cases, for regular and irregular marriages, both bride and groom had to be free to marry, not within forbidden degrees of kinship and over the age of consent (12 for brides and 14 for grooms). Marriage Registers In the Scottish church, "marriage" registers are usually registers of the proclamation of banns; sometimes the marriage is recorded as well. Proclamations were often read in the parishes of the bride and the groom, helpful to genealogists. Sometimes irregular marriages were recorded in the kirk session records because a fine or some other discipline was imposed. In a lot of cases the marriage has no record at all and it has been suggested the rate of unrecorded irregular marriages may be as high as 30 percent (Leneman, L. “Marriage North of the Border”). An Increase in Regular Marriages The number of irregular marriages increased after 1689 when William III and his government approved the disestablishment of the Episcopalian church in Scotland. At least two-thirds of the Episcopal ministers were unemployed and many went to Edinburgh to seek other forms of work. Some went into business marrying people, those who did not want banns proclaimed or chose not to be married in their home parish but wanted some kind of service with a minister. Edinburgh was the center for most irregular marriages and after the 1730s the ministers were not necessarily Episcopal. According to law, a minister performing irregular marriages could be disciplined, even transported. However, this neither stopped the ministers nor put an end to irregular marriages. There was for a time a fashion for marrying in an irregular way. Needless to say, all was not happiness and bliss. There were disputes as to whether a marriage was legal. The Commissary Court of Edinburgh from 1560 to 1830 had the authority to find whether or not a marriage had taken place. Because marriage ceased to be a sacrament in 1560, divorce in Scotland could be granted from that date. The commissary court handled divorce cases as well. Decisions could be appealed to the Court of Session and, after the union with England in 1707, to the House of Lords; obviously a legal route taken only by the wealthy. Conclusion Scottish marriage law allowed couples to keep their options open and they did take advantage of being able to marry irregularly, especially in the 1700s. The numbers dropped in the 1800s and change came in 1939, when only the habit and repute form of irregular marriage continued to be recognized by the law. As for Gretna Green its fame dates from 1754 when Lord Hardwicke's Act came into effect with the purpose of eliminating clandestine marriages in England. Gretna became a popular destination for runaway couples and remained so long after the law changed the residency requirements in 1856. Further Reading "Scottish Ancestry: Research Methods for Family Historians," by Sherry Irvine (Ancestry, 2003) Scottish Family History, by David Moody (GPC, 1988) "Marriage North of the Border," by Leah Leneman, History Today, p. 20-25, April 2002. On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > Thanks, Bridid. For some reason, I cannot get into the first article > although I am subscribed to Ancestry.com. Is there another way to > view it? > The second article doesn't quite explain why a marriage in one > church would > be considered irregular by another. As far as I know the College > Kirk was a > Church of Scotland church. Would the church in Edinburgh have > allowed a > marriage without banns? > > Lynne in Tucson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brigid O'Donnell" <mbod@erols.com> > To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:05 PM > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages > > >> Lynne - >> check this article out for some explanation (no fee required) of >> irregular marriages: >> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 >> and this: >> http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/ >> >> The first article specifically mentions that Edinburgh was the >> "center >> for most irregular marriages" >> >> So one possibility would be if they were married in a church but did >> not have banns called as per usual custom. It was not unusual for a >> couple with an irregular marriage occuring in any one of the 3 or >> more >> ways described, to be called in front of the church elders and fined. >> >> Good luck, >> Brigid >> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: >> >>> Hello - I am new to the list, and I'm wondering if someone could >>> answer a question for me about irregular marriages in Scotland. I >>> found a marriage record for Duncan M'Carter and Elisabeth Simpson on >>> 31 Oct 1796 in Edinburgh. Then I found they were rebuked by the >>> minister in Whittingehame for an irregular marriage. If they were >>> married in a church in Edinburgh, why would they be rebuked by the >>> parish in Whittingehame? And why would they be considered residents >>> in both parishes? >>> M'Carter, Duncan, labourer, College Kirk p., and Elisabeth, same p., >>> d. of deased John Simpson, baker at Dunbar married at Trinity >>> College Kirk, 31 Oct 1796. From the Register of Marriages for the >>> Parish of Edinburgh. >>> >>> Whittingehame Register of Marriage - 1796 Nov 20. The Session >>> being met & constitute by Prayer. Present the Minister Archd Storie >>> & Jas Archibald elders, compear'd before them Duncan McCarter & >>> Elizth Simpson both in the Parish acknowledged their Irregular >>> Marriage and produced their lines dated Edinburgh 31 Oct 1796. They >>> were rebuked by the Minister & exhorted to live as man & wife. >>> >>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Lynne in Tucson, AZ >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, Bridid. For some reason, I cannot get into the first article although I am subscribed to Ancestry.com. Is there another way to view it? The second article doesn't quite explain why a marriage in one church would be considered irregular by another. As far as I know the College Kirk was a Church of Scotland church. Would the church in Edinburgh have allowed a marriage without banns? Lynne in Tucson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brigid O'Donnell" <mbod@erols.com> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Irregular marriages > Lynne - > check this article out for some explanation (no fee required) of > irregular marriages: > http://www.ancestry.co.uk/learn/library/article.aspx?article=8397 > and this: > http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/ > > The first article specifically mentions that Edinburgh was the "center > for most irregular marriages" > > So one possibility would be if they were married in a church but did > not have banns called as per usual custom. It was not unusual for a > couple with an irregular marriage occuring in any one of the 3 or more > ways described, to be called in front of the church elders and fined. > > Good luck, > Brigid > > On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Lynne Ingalls wrote: > >> Hello - I am new to the list, and I'm wondering if someone could >> answer a question for me about irregular marriages in Scotland. I >> found a marriage record for Duncan M'Carter and Elisabeth Simpson on >> 31 Oct 1796 in Edinburgh. Then I found they were rebuked by the >> minister in Whittingehame for an irregular marriage. If they were >> married in a church in Edinburgh, why would they be rebuked by the >> parish in Whittingehame? And why would they be considered residents >> in both parishes? >> M'Carter, Duncan, labourer, College Kirk p., and Elisabeth, same p., >> d. of deased John Simpson, baker at Dunbar married at Trinity >> College Kirk, 31 Oct 1796. From the Register of Marriages for the >> Parish of Edinburgh. >> >> Whittingehame Register of Marriage - 1796 Nov 20. The Session >> being met & constitute by Prayer. Present the Minister Archd Storie >> & Jas Archibald elders, compear'd before them Duncan McCarter & >> Elizth Simpson both in the Parish acknowledged their Irregular >> Marriage and produced their lines dated Edinburgh 31 Oct 1796. They >> were rebuked by the Minister & exhorted to live as man & wife. >> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Lynne in Tucson, AZ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello - I am new to the list, and I'm wondering if someone could answer a question for me about irregular marriages in Scotland. I found a marriage record for Duncan M'Carter and Elisabeth Simpson on 31 Oct 1796 in Edinburgh. Then I found they were rebuked by the minister in Whittingehame for an irregular marriage. If they were married in a church in Edinburgh, why would they be rebuked by the parish in Whittingehame? And why would they be considered residents in both parishes? M'Carter, Duncan, labourer, College Kirk p., and Elisabeth, same p., d. of deased John Simpson, baker at Dunbar married at Trinity College Kirk, 31 Oct 1796. From the Register of Marriages for the Parish of Edinburgh. Whittingehame Register of Marriage - 1796 Nov 20. The Session being met & constitute by Prayer. Present the Minister Archd Storie & Jas Archibald elders, compear'd before them Duncan McCarter & Elizth Simpson both in the Parish acknowledged their Irregular Marriage and produced their lines dated Edinburgh 31 Oct 1796. They were rebuked by the Minister & exhorted to live as man & wife. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Lynne in Tucson, AZ

Rhoda   You must think me very rude for not having responded to you until now.  I have only just been able to access my emails as i am having trouble with my home computer.   Thank you very much for going to so much trouble.   Kind regards --- On Sat, 1/5/10, CandROverson <overson12@btinternet.com> wrote: From: CandROverson <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] William Lain - 10 months old in 1841 census To: midlothian@rootsweb.com Date: Saturday, 1 May, 2010, 17:01 Avril I just had another look for your Lain family in the 1851 Census and still couldn't find them.  But I see that John Lain snr was a Butler so I suppose he may have moved back South or perhaps elsewhere within the UK.  I had a look in the 1861 Census and found what may be John Lain junior living in Newcastle upon Tyne with his wife Hannah.  A John Lain married in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1857.  Unfortunately Free BMD has not transcribed his wife. 8 Snowdon (?) Street, St Andrews Parish, Newcastle upon Tyne John LAIN, 27, Head, born Edinburgh, french polisher. Hannah LAIN, 27, wife, born Hartlepool, Co Durham Margaret A Bone, visitor, 15, servant, born Newcastle upon Tyne I can't find him in 1871. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "avril lacey" <chidham_1762@yahoo.co.uk> To: <midlothian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] William Lain - 10 months old in 1841 census Hello Rhoda Apologies for not replying until now. I have only just been able to check my emails as i have been away and have also had problems with my internet connection. Thank you very much for taking the trouble to look up this information for me Kind regards Avril --- On Sat, 3/4/10, CandROverson <overson12@btinternet.com> wrote: From: CandROverson <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] William Lain - 10 months old in 1841 census To: midlothian@rootsweb.com Date: Saturday, 3 April, 2010, 12:52 Hello Avril I have been unable to find the birth on the Scotlands People birth index (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk). As the parents were both English-born, it is likely that had the children baptised in a Church other than the Church of Scotland. The baptism registers on the Scotlands People website are those of the Church of Scotland. However the Deaths and Burials Index (pre-1855) lists the deaths in the St Cuthbert's Parish of Edinburgh of Alexander Wood Lain (1843) and Grace Hill Lain (1844). I had a look at the image relating to Grace. She was the daughter of John Lain and died of fever at 9 Haugh Street, Edinburgh on 1 October 1844. She was 14. There was one other Lain listed in Edinburgh. A Janet Lain who died in 1844. I couldn't find John Lain or his wife Helen on the statutory registers death index (1855 onwards). So they either died before 1855 and are not on the index, or they didn't die in Scotland. I will send you the image of Grace's entry in the death register off-list. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "avril lacey" <chidham_1762@yahoo.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 11:36 AM Subject: [MIDLOTHIAN] William Lain - 10 months old in 1841 census I recently sent an message containing the wrong dates relating to William Lain. Apologies for that. The followoing is what should have been sent: According to the 1841 census, William Lain is recorded as 10 months old and living in 12 Hermitage Place, St Cuthbert's - Midlothian. ( father John Lain and mother Helen) I need to get information regarding his birth. If anyone is researching this time period in the relevant parish registers, would it be possible for them to look up this information, as they are doing their own research? I have also drawn a blank for the whole of the family in the 1851 census - so any helpful pointers would be very much appreciated I live in Plymouth, and am happy to look up records in my local library if this is helpful to anyone. Kind regards Avril ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I thought I would tell the people on this list that I have posted a bunch of records for Redpath (various spellings) at this url http://www.tammymitchell.com/surnames/Redpath.html You can browse the page, it wont be searchable from my main site search until after next Sunday. But you can use the 'find in page' too. I hope this helps people on the list, as they are always helping me. You'll find some records from England and Ireland too. Take care Tammy On 11/06/2010 5:55 PM, robertgascoigne wrote: > Hello Faith > > I would love to share information on Redpath's. I am trying to sort out a > tree of Redpath's starting about 1700 and I have two Redpath's on the 1881 > census an Alexander and a Peter Redpath Actually there are 5 Alexanders in > the line. > I was in Scotland in March and bought a judges summation from West Register > House . When I arrived home and studied the case I realized that the only > two Redpaths were the two mentioned above, I realized what I had was the end > of the case. I emailed West Register House and ask them if they could find > the case, Three weeks later I received an Email stating that they had found > the case 18 printed pages and 8 handwritten pages ,and it would cost me 20 > pounds. It was well worth the money ,it gave three generations of Redpath's > from Dunbar. If you like I could send you a copy of the Redpath Section It > names names and how many children each had. > > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Faith Stanners"<seahawk@xtra.co.nz> > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:01 PM > To:<midlothian@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [MIDLOTHIAN] Alexander REDPATH > > word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDLOTHIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Robert Thanks for your info I can know definitely tie up some loose entries. I had Jane STENHOUSE]REDPATH with no husband and these 3 children James b 25 Sept 1870; Agnes b 24 Sept 1871; Mary b 1 June1874. have sources etc. The births were registered by Jane STENHOUSE or REDPATH. in Edinburgh Duddington I also had another entry with the marriage of Jane to Alexander REDPATH. with your information can tidy it all up together with 3 extra children. .. I can send you a family Group sheet direct to you as an attachment if you would like. Many thanks Faith