I just checked on the dates of Gil's 1828 proclamation. 15th Dec 1828 was a Monday and the day of marriage 19th Dec 1828 was a Friday. On my hard to read one, I think the date of marriage is 6th April 1832, and that also is a Friday. Jennifer -----Original Message----- From: Kodiak Web Design [mailto:kodiak@kodiak-web-design.com] Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2004 10:30 AM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [MLN] Canongate proclamations 1812 spares I believe (and I could be way wrong here, so don't quote me), that in much the same way as christenings are still held as part of a larger Sunday service, marriages were also often held on Sundays. To the modern way of thinking, this either A) detracts from the normal sermon or B) detracts from the Bride's "big day", either being a sufficient reason not to have them on Sundays. Leslie On 13/12/2004 23:21:36, midlothian-l@rootsweb.com wrote: > Gil, >Thank you for sharing the image. I have a copy of an original > Proclamation of Marriage (original held by cousin) from 1832. It also is > very creased, making the day of month very hard to read. >I > hadn't noticed before that the handwriting on the top part is > different from the bottom where the minister filled in the marriage > date. At least now I know the two dates are different by a few days. >I would be interested to know if there was a particular day of the week > when marriages occurred - such as a Saturday. That would make it easier > for me to guess the hard to read date. >Jennifer

Thanks Jane and you are correct we did correspond before about this. I have just discovered the house were my Gt Grandparents brought up all there children number 56 Whitehill Street no longer exists and also number 58 as these are all the even numbers so are on the opposite side of the street from the church. I wondered why just these two houses are missing. Thanks for your help I will try George Archibald who I have spoken to before and is very helpful. Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: roger kelly [mailto:roger.kelly1@virgin.net] Sent: 14 December 2004 08:57 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MLN] 56 Whitehill Street Newcraighall Dear Eleanor, We corresponded about this last year and another MLN Lister also had ancestors from Whitehill St. At a local history fair in Dalkeith, I spoke to George Archibald on the Mining Museum stand. George used to be a mine surveyor and worked for the Niddrie & Benhar Coal company since he was a boy. Whitehill Street was built as early as 1827, by the coal owner, Sir Archibald Hope of Craighall (the name of his family seat in Fife) as housing for the miners. I feel sure George will know what happened to the street. You could email via the site: http://www.scottishminingmuseum.com/museum.html mailto:enquiries@scottishminingmuseum.com From memory, there is a restored row of cottages close by the shopping complex, cinema and carpark at Newcraighall (known as Kinnaird Park) which is possibly what's left of Whitehill St. Best Wishes, Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:57 PM Subject: [MLN] 56 Whitehill Street Newcraighall > Can anybody help me to find out what happened to this house and number 58. > Tried the council but they have no records of these houses being > demolished. > Could it have been something to do with the railway. > Eleanor > > >

Gil, Thank you for sharing the image. I have a copy of an original Proclamation of Marriage (original held by cousin) from 1832. It also is very creased, making the day of month very hard to read. I hadn't noticed before that the handwriting on the top part is different from the bottom where the minister filled in the marriage date. At least now I know the two dates are different by a few days. I would be interested to know if there was a particular day of the week when marriages occurred - such as a Saturday. That would make it easier for me to guess the hard to read date. Jennifer Melbourne, Australia -----Original Message----- From: Gil Hall [mailto:gil@gilhall.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2004 7:39 AM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MLN] Canongate proclamations 1812 spares Lisa, You may be interested to see a copy of an original Proclamation of Marriage from 1828. Alexander STEWART and Joan JOHNSTON are my great-great grandparents. Go to http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/CertProc.html The reason for the 'creases' in the document was that my late father Adam HALL 1899-1979 was so proud of this document he carried it around in his wallet! Regards, Gil. HALL. Southampton, England.

Could you send it to me please. Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] Sent: 13 December 2004 20:02 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] Treatise of Scots parishes and language There is a long treatise on Scots parishes, towns and language which is too long to be sent on this web. I will firward it directly to anyone who wants it. Gordon

Hi Gordon Do you think that you could send me a copy?. Thanks, Marion Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:02:18 -0400 From: "gordon crooks" To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Treatise of Scots parishes and language There is a long treatise on Scots parishes, towns and language which is too long to be sent on this web. I will firward it directly to anyone who wants it. Gordon --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

There are certain films that are restricted,I've been a non member volunteer for 6 years at my local FHC and sometimes a film that a patron has ordered is designated a restricted film. It may be as in some cases that it is only available to view at Salt Lake,but not to be distributed to FHCs. I understand that before staffers at the FHC order a film from Salt Lake, they check the fiche that lists Restricted Films. Is this what the question is about ????? Frank McGonigal Ont.Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Jones" <bejays@ncable.com.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:30 AM Subject: Re: [MLN] MURRAY.CRAWFORD.BINNIE. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > May print only direct ancestor and those born 95+ years ago. All other > information must be crossed out." > > These are the only restrictions on searching Church Members records. > > If the records you were searching for were general ones, then you are > incorrect... all those records are for each and everyone of us to search. > > If you go to www.familysearch.org - click on the search tab then click on > family history library catalog - once there you can search for anywhere in > the world, and if the Church has filmed documents there then the films > will be available to all. > > Regards, > Barbara (a member of the Church for the past 42 years) > > >

Dear Eleanor, We corresponded about this last year and another MLN Lister also had ancestors from Whitehill St. At a local history fair in Dalkeith, I spoke to George Archibald on the Mining Museum stand. George used to be a mine surveyor and worked for the Niddrie & Benhar Coal company since he was a boy. Whitehill Street was built as early as 1827, by the coal owner, Sir Archibald Hope of Craighall (the name of his family seat in Fife) as housing for the miners. I feel sure George will know what happened to the street. You could email via the site: http://www.scottishminingmuseum.com/museum.html mailto:enquiries@scottishminingmuseum.com From memory, there is a restored row of cottages close by the shopping complex, cinema and carpark at Newcraighall (known as Kinnaird Park) which is possibly what's left of Whitehill St. Best Wishes, Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:57 PM Subject: [MLN] 56 Whitehill Street Newcraighall > Can anybody help me to find out what happened to this house and number 58. > Tried the council but they have no records of these houses being > demolished. > Could it have been something to do with the railway. > Eleanor > > >

Hello Gordon, Can you send me a copy please. Kind Regards Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "gordon crooks" <glcrooks@bcpl.net> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:02 PM Subject: [MLN] Treatise of Scots parishes and language > There is a long treatise on Scots parishes, towns and language which is too long to be sent on this web. I will firward it directly to anyone who wants it. > > Gordon >

I would be interested in reading it. gregory@giantcomm.net Kathy -----Original Message----- From: Gresercher@aol.com [mailto:Gresercher@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:52 AM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MLN] Treatise of Scots parishes and language Thank you Gordon, I would like to read this document. Cath In a message dated 13/12/2004 20:03:14 GMT Standard Time, glcrooks@bcpl.net writes: There is a long treatise on Scots parishes, towns and language which is too long to be sent on this web. I will firward it directly to anyone who wants it. Gordon

Gordon: If you can forward me a copy too, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Ken

Hi Gordon, I'd like to have a copy also, if its not too much trouble. Thanks, Sharon Howell 20 Deer Trail Dr. Springboro, OH 45066

Thank you Gordon, I would like to read this document. Cath In a message dated 13/12/2004 20:03:14 GMT Standard Time, glcrooks@bcpl.net writes: There is a long treatise on Scots parishes, towns and language which is too long to be sent on this web. I will firward it directly to anyone who wants it. Gordon

Answering my own question, here's an excerpt from "The Place Names of Edinburgh": "WHITEHILL (Newcraighall) is shown thus on /Blaeu/ 1654 and was the original name of NEW HAILES, re-named in 1708 when it was acquired by the owner of Hailes, near East Linton. /Knox/ 1812 shows Hailes but also Whitehill at Wanton Walls; and this gave the names of WHITEHILL MAINS to the farm, WHITEHILL STREET to the row of cottages shown on /Ordnance survey/ 1852 as already developing beside the road earlier shown on Roy 1753, and WHITEHILL TERRACE to a row on the opposite sied, suppressed in the redevelopment of the mining village in 1980. WHITEHILL ROAD, also figured on /Roy/, is named as the road leading to Whitehill Mains. The place name is Anglian /hwit hyll/ or Scots /white hill/, evidently referring to a hill which, perhaps by reason of grassiness, showed up as paler amid the surrounding heathy landscape: possibly it was the knowe on which Whitehill House was later built; or else it may have been the low but prominent hill that rises to a summit in the west of Whitehill Mains." The area, known as Newcraighall, is in Portobello. There is still a Whitehill Street there, but I can't tell from the map I currently have open which street it is. The "Wanton Walls" (meaning "intermitent springs or wells) also shows up on this current map, and there is still a Miner's institute in the area as well. I can't help with your quest to learn when the cottages were removed, but next time I'm in Portobello I'll have a look for the area. It appears, though, to have been the way they were going, as the companion cottages were removed in 1980. Hope this is of some help. Leslie On 13/12/2004 23:48:41, midlothian-l@rootsweb.com wrote: > Elenor, > I can't find any mention of a Whitehill STREET in Edinburgh (modern map). > Could it be Whitehill AVENUE, DRIVE, FARM ROAD, GARDENS or GROVE? Those > are the Whithills I can find. >Leslie >On 13/12/2004 20:57:24, midlothian-l@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Can anybody help me to find out what happened to this house and number > > 58. > >Tried the council but they have no records of these houses being > > demolished. > > Could it have been something to do with the railway. > > Eleanor >Kodiak Web Design > http://www.kodiak-web-design.com > -- > browsers i use: >opera 6.06 and 7.54 > ie 5.0 and 6.0 > netscape 4.77, 6.2.3 and 7.2; Mozilla 1.7.3; Firefox 0.9 >WinXP Home (broadband) and Win98 (dialup) Kodiak Web Design http://www.kodiak-web-design.com -- Browsers I use: Opera 6.06 and 7.54 IE 5.0 and 6.0 Netscape 4.77, 6.2.3 and 7.2; Mozilla 1.7.3; Firefox 0.9 WinXP Home (broadband) and Win98 (dialup)

Elenor, I can't find any mention of a Whitehill STREET in Edinburgh (modern map). Could it be Whitehill AVENUE, DRIVE, FARM ROAD, GARDENS or GROVE? Those are the Whithills I can find. Leslie On 13/12/2004 20:57:24, midlothian-l@rootsweb.com wrote: > Can anybody help me to find out what happened to this house and number > 58. >Tried the council but they have no records of these houses being > demolished. > Could it have been something to do with the railway. > Eleanor Kodiak Web Design http://www.kodiak-web-design.com -- Browsers I use: Opera 6.06 and 7.54 IE 5.0 and 6.0 Netscape 4.77, 6.2.3 and 7.2; Mozilla 1.7.3; Firefox 0.9 WinXP Home (broadband) and Win98 (dialup)

I believe (and I could be way wrong here, so don't quote me), that in much the same way as christenings are still held as part of a larger Sunday service, marriages were also often held on Sundays. To the modern way of thinking, this either A) detracts from the normal sermon or B) detracts from the Bride's "big day", either being a sufficient reason not to have them on Sundays. Leslie On 13/12/2004 23:21:36, midlothian-l@rootsweb.com wrote: > Gil, >Thank you for sharing the image. I have a copy of an original > Proclamation of Marriage (original held by cousin) from 1832. It also is > very creased, making the day of month very hard to read. >I > hadn't noticed before that the handwriting on the top part is > different from the bottom where the minister filled in the marriage > date. At least now I know the two dates are different by a few days. >I would be interested to know if there was a particular day of the week > when marriages occurred - such as a Saturday. That would make it easier > for me to guess the hard to read date. >Jennifer >Melbourne, Australia >-----Original Message----- > From: Gil Hall [mailto:gil@gilhall.fsnet.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2004 7:39 AM > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MLN] Canongate proclamations 1812 spares >Lisa, >You may be interested to see a copy of an original Proclamation of > Marriage > from 1828. Alexander STEWART and Joan JOHNSTON are my great-great > grandparents. Go to http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/CertProc.html >The reason for the 'creases' in the document was that my late father > Adam > HALL 1899-1979 was so proud of this document he c Kodiak Web Design http://www.kodiak-web-design.com -- Browsers I use: Opera 6.06 and 7.54 IE 5.0 and 6.0 Netscape 4.77, 6.2.3 and 7.2; Mozilla 1.7.3; Firefox 0.9 WinXP Home (broadband) and Win98 (dialup)

Thanks Jane, I appreciate the info. gretchen

Hi Lisa, Proclamation/Marriage records are normally the proclamation of the marriage banns, unless marriage is specifically mentioned, and may include: Names of the groom and bride Parish of each Groom's occupation Bride's father's name & occupation Names and addresses of witnesses The original books are kept at the National Archives of Scotland (formerly known as the Scottish Record Office) http://www.nas.gov.uk/ and can be viewed there in person. You can access the indexes on line at http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ "Proclamation of Banns are the notice of contract of marriage, (Intention to marry) read out in the Kirk before the marriage took place. Kirk Session minutes record the money pledged by the groom to ensure that the couple married within 40 days" You can only order an extract to be posted to you for a fee but not view it on-line. All Scottish OPRs have been filmed and the relevant information is on the Marriage Registers (available to hire from the LDS or to view at a FHC). I wanted to look at the proclamations in case they differed from the Marriage Records and gave more details. In order to marry in church the banns were proclaimed 3 times before the congregation in the weeks before the marriage to make sure the couple were legally able to marry by allowing time to object. This still happens today. From the GROS site: http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/ Registration in Scotland: "Before the introduction of compulsory civil registration in 1855, the parish ministers or session clerks of the established Church of Scotland in some 900 parishes kept registers, which record births & baptisms; proclamations of banns & marriages; and deaths & burials. The surviving registers, now approximately 3,500 in number, are far from complete. Though the oldest register relates to baptisms and banns at Errol in Perthshire in 1553, for some parishes the earliest register dates from the early 19th century, and for other parishes there are no registers at all. The standard of record-keeping also varied considerably from parish to parish and from year to year, and most entries contain relatively little information." Find out more about the history of registration in Scotland on the website. You now know as much as I do! BTW One of the proclamations, half on the page I was studying, was for a EUART. Best Wishes, Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Wellbelove" <lisawellbelove@sympatico.ca> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [MLN] Canongate proclamations 1812 spares > RE: "Register of Proclamations of Marriages in Canongate........" > > Hello Good Folk of MLN - Season's Greetings from snowy Burnt River where > we're hip deep in the white fluffy stuff! > > I hope you don't mind my jumping in here; but, I was impressed by this > "Register of Proc......" > > This is the 1st time I've ever seen one. Where do they come from & how > does one access them? I'd appreciate a little background on this if it's > convenient for you. > > Respectfully curious, > > Lisa Wellbelove, > Burnt River, Ontario, Canada > > Researching: > PEDDER - London, possibly Herts > TAYLOR - Medway, Felixstowe > WELLBELOVE - GLOBAL {all spellings} > HOGG - Sligo, IRE > EWART - Down, IRE > DONNACHIE - Ayr, SCT > GILLINGHAM - SFK & SRY > email: lisawellbelove@sympatico.ca > > >

Hi Elizabeth I dont know anything about the names you are researching however I also have traced some family moving from Bothwell and the surrounding areas to Bathgate in West Lothian. The link in my case was farming however both areas were large mining areas. Hope this helps. Do you know why those Bathgate films arent available to the general public? Jeanette -------Original Message------- From: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Date: 13 December 2004 02:50:03 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] MURRAY.CRAWFORD.BINNIE. > __I am new to the list, here are the names I am researching: John Murray b abt 1776 married Helen Crawford b 1782 Bathgate. Helens parents, John Crawford and Alison Binnie/Bennie. I can find no entries on the OPR's for John's birth or for this couple's marriage, although there are a lot of 'possible' entries on the IGI for his birth but how to decide which one is the correct one is another matter. I have the births of all their children and the first child James was born in 1803. Aparently some films for the Bathgate area are unavailable to the general public by the LDS. They moved through to Calderbank (nr Airdrie) Bothwell parish and were there in the 1851 census. John was a contractor and also ran a farm called Lauchope Mill. I noticed on the 1881 census for Bathgate, several places of birth were given as Bothwell (parish), and wondered what the connection would be there. Any suggestions? kind regards Elizabeth MURRAY.CRAWFORD.BINNIE. COOK.WRIGHT.McGUFFEN. SCOTLAND. McCAIG.KELLY.TURNER.HALE.Co.DOWN. KENNEDY.YOUNG.HENRY. Co.DERRY. ____________________________ .

Gordon I would appreciate a copy. Thanks Len Wood London Canada Subject: Re: [MLN] Treatise of Scots parishes and language > > There is a long treatise on Scots parishes, towns and language which is > too long to be sent on this web. I will firward it directly to anyone who > wants it. > > > > Gordon >

Can anybody help me to find out what happened to this house and number 58. Tried the council but they have no records of these houses being demolished. Could it have been something to do with the railway. Eleanor