Elizabeth: True True, it wasn't until the 2nd WW that the gentlemen (officers) stopped using derogatory terms, seems like the "gentlemen" finally learned their lesson Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Reid" <bluebel2@tpg.com.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 6:28 AM Subject: [MLN] Mine Worker Records > "But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" > > Well that probably is true ! My Grandfather who I mentioned in my first > email, enlisted in 1914 and went thru WW1 until 1918. At the time of > enlisting, he was 43 years old, and came out of the pub one Saturday and > straight into the recruiting office, he left a wife and nine children and > marched off to the battlefields of France, he went thru the Somme and > other > bloody battles. Meanwhile Haig and his cronies were making a complete > *&%^* > of things in the comfort of company headquarters or his London home. I > have > a photo of my Grandfather in a family photo after the war, with his five > medals pinned on his waistcoat , it has pride of place in my lounge room. > Aye they bred them tough in those days. > The scum of the earth won 'the war to end all wars' . > > Elizabeth > > > > > > > >> Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington >> went on to say, which >> makes it not quite so bad! >> >> Best wishes, >> Sheena Ireland >> >> >> Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my >> GGG's, >> James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron >> Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot >> through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension > of >> pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for > him >> were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to > have >> a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! >> >> Sonia Murray >> Biloxi, MS USA >> >> ______________________________ > > >
Well, I'm glad to hear the Duke said something nice to mitigate his ugly remark. Maybe he wasn't so bad after all - but I bet he stayed in the rear giving orders, well out of cannon range. "Help the girl that Tommy's left behind him..." What in the world would have happened to the children if the father was killed? I suspect pensions were pitifully small back then! All the best, Sonia Snip> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Reid [mailto:bluebel2@tpg.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:29 AM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] Mine Worker Records "But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" Well that probably is true ! My Grandfather... enlisted in 1914 and went thru WW1 until 1918. At the time of enlisting, he was 43 years old, and came out of the pub one Saturday and straight into the recruiting office, he left a wife and nine children and marched off to the battlefields of France, he went thru the Somme > <snip > Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently > Wellington went on to say, which makes it not quite so bad! > > Best wishes, > Sheena Ireland> >
Hi folks, Just listing my surname interests in and around Edinburgh. All name originally stem from the Paterson family of Biggar and Peebles. Other names with OVENS are HENDERSON GILCHRIST PATERSON again and again! READDIE (maybe) Some of the Ovens family seemed to move around...East Calder?? PATERSON/CASSIE connection: Richard Paterson and Elizabeth Cassie Believe Elizabeth is daughter of ANDREW and MARY ADAMS...Around St Cuthberts and Leith. PATERSON/SMITH Robert PATERSON and Harriet Barclay SMITH PATERSON/MCARTHUR Walter Paterson and Elizabeth McArthur Name of Cameron from the McArthur side. Cheers Ave Ferguson nee PATERSON NAPIER, NZ.
Dear merrylee The only information I have is William McMillian married Ann Kay 1792 Dalkeith (from the IGI) and then I found children: Margaret, Millicent and Harriet (ancestor). harriet married David George Dalglish. Jacey
McMillian (sometimes McMillan) Kay Dalglish (and all spellings!) Gordon I have very little info but am willing to share what I have. Jacey
Reading this reply jogged my memory of something I read in a book a few years ago. Miners or colliers were classed by the mine owners and the 'upper' classes as the lowest form of the working classes and humans life in general. I was shocked when I read that and it angered me at the time because my Father (thankfully only for a few years), my Grandfathers on both sides and most of my male relatives were colliers. I always admired them for the dangerous work they did, my Grandfather was a brusher down the pit, they say the most dangerous of all the jobs. They worked all their lives in atrocious conditions to afford them who looked down on them the luxuries of the times. Some of them died very young leaving young widows and children, we find that out in our research, and that saddens me, the women must have been distraught not only at losing their husbands but how they would survive. For there to be no records of the employees rankles, because in the southern states of America they kept impeccable records of their slaves, even a dog breeder or a horse breeder keeps records, shows how much value was put on their lives. No wonder so many of them were socialists and communists. In my view the men who employed them could never lace their boots. (one of my Fathers auld sayings) right that's me got that off my chest..... regards to all Elizabeth. > > ""The fact is that very little remains in the way of employment lists relating > to the people who worked in the mines of the 19th century. I don't think > that they were regarded as important enough for that information to be worth > keeping! Even the mining records kept in the National Archives of Scotland > are mostly about coal company and coal owner details - board meetings; legal > document; mineral leases; financial matters etc.""
Hi Listers, Looking for any connections to the above. George was a blacksmith & he & Mary DIACK were married in 1899 in Edinburgh. George was born in Dalkeith. They are to be found in the 1901 Census in Bo'ness with their son George just 10mths old. Any info welcome. Barbara Stirling
Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington went on to say, "But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" which makes it not quite so bad! Best wishes, Sheena Ireland Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension of pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for him were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to have a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! Sonia Murray Biloxi, MS USA
hi Here's a bit more on the subject Extract from pp. 6&7, RULEWATER AND ITS PEOPLE by George Tancred 1907 "Miners I have already referred to the slavery of the vassal. I shall now refer to another form of it amongst the miners of Scotland. In 1775 there must have been literally thousands of slaves in Scotland. Lord Cockburn says these miners could not be killed nor directly tortured; but they belonged, like the serfs of an older date, to their respective works with which they were sold as a part of the gearing.' With a few exceptions, the condition of the father of the family was the condition of the whole house. The children, as a matter of course, 'entered with the work,' as it was called, and went into slavery with their father and mother. So that wives, daughters, and sons, thus continued to go on from one generation to another under a system which was to all intents and purposes a modified slavery. 'Of course it was the interest of a wise master to use his slaves well, and also his cattle and horses, but as usual the human toiler had the worst of it.' We know that, as a body, the miners formed a separate and a despised tribe, with a language and habits of their own. The completeness of their degradation is shown by a statute, which excludes them as being slaves with no personal liberty. An Act of 1701 proceeds on the preamble that 'Our Sovereign Lord, considering it is the interest of all his good subjects that the liberty of their persons be duly secured.' Yet, while introducing regulations against 'wrongous imprisonment, and undue delays in trials,' the statute contains these words-' And sicklike it is hereby provided and declared that this present Act is in no ways to be extended to Colliers or Salters.' These facts enable us to understand how slaves were regarded by the people generally. The first relief they received was in 1775 by the Act 15 George iii. Chapter 28. It mentions that many colliers and salters are stated to be in slavery and bondage; and after 1st July 1775 the existing ones were only liberated gradually. Sir Walter Scott, in a note to Redgauntlet, says: -' They were so far from desiring or prizing the blessing conferred on them, that they esteemed the interest taken in their freedom to be a mere decree on the part of the proprietors to get rid of what they called head and harigald money, payable to them when a female of their number, by bearing a child, made an addition to the live stock of their master's property.' In 1799 the last fetter was struck off, an Act of that year (Geo. ii'. cap. 56) declaring 'that all colliers in Scotland shall be free from their servitude.' The Scottish miners to this day are a peculiar people, descended from the old slaves of the eighteenth century, who married and intermarried amongst themselves. In good times no class is more prosperous, and in bad times it is the first to suffer." Best wishes, Doug & Kit Leitch Solihull UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Bue" <mbue@cfl.rr.com> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records I read a book by Ken Follett, 'A Place called Freedom' which I can reccomend. The prologue reads:- (The author was gardening in his flower patch and finds a old package in an oil cloth bag....) The other item was an oil cloth bag. That too was rotten, and when i touched it with my gardening gloves it disintegrated. Inside was an iron ring about six inches across. It was tarnished but the oil cloth bag had prevented it from rusting. It looked crudely made, probably by a village blacksmith, and I first thought it might have been part of a cart or plow. But why had someone wrapped it in oil cloth to preserve it? There was a break in the ring and it had been bent. I began to think of it as a collar that some prisoner had been forced to wear. When the prisoner escaped, the ring had been broken with a heavy blacksmith’s tool, and then bent to get it off. I took it to the house and started to clean it up.....as I polished it with a rag , an inscription became visible. It was engraved in old fashioned curly writing, and it took me a while to figure it out, but this is what it said: ’’THIS MAN IS THE PROPERTY OF SIR GEORGE JAMISSON OF FIFE’’ It’s here on my desk, besides the computer. I use it as a paperweight. I often pick it up and turn it in my hands, rereading that inscription.If the iron collar could talk, I think to myself, what kind of story would it tell..... this goes back to the days of indentured workers, it's not pretty. My background includes miners from Fife and I am proud of them and my heritage. moira Gil & Sonia Murray wrote: >There is an excellent book about mine workers in Scotland - The Camerons, by >Robert Crichton. You'll enjoy it. Fiction based on fact, like How Green >Was My Valley, about miners in Wales. Mummy was with a theatre group in >Wales early in the 1930's, at the time of a strike. With the mines shut >down the town drew back into itself like a snail into its shell, hoarding >money for food. The theatre closed its doors as tickets went unsold. The >cast, who would have been paid from the box office, were stranded. They >pooled what money they had and my mother drew out Postal Savings. A kind >local man with a lorry offered to take them back to London if they could >just pay for the petrol, as they didn't have enough for train fares... > >I doubt the mine owners missed a meal! > >Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, >James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron >Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot >through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension of >pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for him >were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to have >a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! > >Sonia Murray >Biloxi, MS USA > >Snip> > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elizabeth Reid [mailto:bluebel2@tpg.com.au] >Subject: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records > >Reading this reply jogged my memory of something I read in a book a few >years ago. Miners or colliers were classed by the mine owners and the >'upper' classes as the lowest form of the working classes and humans life in >general. I was shocked when I read that and it angered me at the time >because my Father (thankfully only for a few years), my Grandfathers on both >sides and most of my male relatives were colliers. I always admired them >for the dangerous work they did, my Grandfather was a brusher down the pit, >they say the most dangerous of all the jobs. They worked all their lives >in atrocious conditions to afford them who looked down on them the luxuries >of the times. > > > > > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.6 - Release Date: 27/01/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.6 - Release Date: 27/01/05
Hi Elizabeth, I was glad to read your letter, but sad to see it's contents. On my Grandfather's birth certificate, his father's (my great grandfather) occupation is listed as colliery fireman. As I didn't know know what a colliery fireman is, I thought that might be quite an impressive title. Sorry to hear that they were so looked down upon. My Grandfather too, was a coal miner, before they immigrated to the US. Sure am glad now that they were able to!! gretchen Michigan USA
Sheena: Also if my memory is correct Wellington himself was not real high born, not the scum of the earth, but not top drawer either until he received all of his honors. For that matter almost all of the lower ranks in all of the armies were low lifes! Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Ireland" <ireland@pavilion.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:40 PM Subject: RE: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records > Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington > went on to say, "But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" which > makes it not quite so bad! > > Best wishes, > Sheena Ireland > > > Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, > James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron > Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot > through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension > of > pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for > him > were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to > have > a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! > > Sonia Murray > Biloxi, MS USA > > > > >
Gordon, not sure I understand what you mean by "all of the lower ranks in all of the armies were low life". Do you mean that they were lowly born or do you mean that they were the 'scum of the earth'? moira gordon crooks wrote: > Sheena: Also if my memory is correct Wellington himself was not real > high born, not the scum of the earth, but not top drawer either until > he received all of his honors. For that matter almost all of the lower > ranks in all of the armies were low lifes! > > Gordon > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Ireland" > <ireland@pavilion.co.uk> > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:40 PM > Subject: RE: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records > > >> Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington >> went on to say, "But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" which >> makes it not quite so bad! >> >> Best wishes, >> Sheena Ireland >> >> >> Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my >> GGG's, >> James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron >> Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot >> through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a >> pension of >> pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought >> for him >> were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend >> to have >> a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! >> >> Sonia Murray >> Biloxi, MS USA >> >> >> >> >> > > >
>Further to my earlier suggestion to change your settings to direct download: I see there have been a number of suggestions to disable firewalls, change your settings to accept cookies and not block pop-ups etc. None of these solutions were relevant in my case. And as I said, all my troubles with Mac OS 9 started after "upgrades" on the Scotlands people website. Other family computers with the same browser settings but with Mac OS X work fine. I don't know the reason for the problems but a direct download of the images is actually faster than viewing them with the viewer supplied and has been very satisfactory. You could try checking the other things suggested, but this has been the best solution for me. Catherine
A cousin of mine, Eve Pryde Roberts has published an essay about The Scottish Coalmining Ancestry of Joseph Anthony Pryde 1909 - 1985 and included this: "in 1606 Scottish Parliament passed an Act making Scottish colliers into serfs (slaves). This Act declared "that no person within this realm (Scotland) shall hire or conduce any colliers or coalbearers without a sufficient testimonial of their master whom they last served, and the said colliers and coalbearers are to be esteemed repute and held as thieves and punished in their bodies for stealing themselves from their masters". In 1647 another Act made it illegal for colliers to change masters other than on 1st December annually. Elinor.
I read a book by Ken Follett, 'A Place called Freedom' which I can reccomend. The prologue reads:- (The author was gardening in his flower patch and finds a old package in an oil cloth bag....) The other item was an oil cloth bag. That too was rotten, and when i touched it with my gardening gloves it disintegrated. Inside was an iron ring about six inches across. It was tarnished but the oil cloth bag had prevented it from rusting. It looked crudely made, probably by a village blacksmith, and I first thought it might have been part of a cart or plow. But why had someone wrapped it in oil cloth to preserve it? There was a break in the ring and it had been bent. I began to think of it as a collar that some prisoner had been forced to wear. When the prisoner escaped, the ring had been broken with a heavy blacksmith’s tool, and then bent to get it off. I took it to the house and started to clean it up.....as I polished it with a rag , an inscription became visible. It was engraved in old fashioned curly writing, and it took me a while to figure it out, but this is what it said: ’’THIS MAN IS THE PROPERTY OF SIR GEORGE JAMISSON OF FIFE’’ It’s here on my desk, besides the computer. I use it as a paperweight. I often pick it up and turn it in my hands, rereading that inscription.If the iron collar could talk, I think to myself, what kind of story would it tell..... this goes back to the days of indentured workers, it's not pretty. My background includes miners from Fife and I am proud of them and my heritage. moira Gil & Sonia Murray wrote: >There is an excellent book about mine workers in Scotland - The Camerons, by >Robert Crichton. You'll enjoy it. Fiction based on fact, like How Green >Was My Valley, about miners in Wales. Mummy was with a theatre group in >Wales early in the 1930's, at the time of a strike. With the mines shut >down the town drew back into itself like a snail into its shell, hoarding >money for food. The theatre closed its doors as tickets went unsold. The >cast, who would have been paid from the box office, were stranded. They >pooled what money they had and my mother drew out Postal Savings. A kind >local man with a lorry offered to take them back to London if they could >just pay for the petrol, as they didn't have enough for train fares... > >I doubt the mine owners missed a meal! > >Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, >James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron >Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot >through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension of >pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for him >were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to have >a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! > >Sonia Murray >Biloxi, MS USA > >Snip> > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elizabeth Reid [mailto:bluebel2@tpg.com.au] >Subject: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records > >Reading this reply jogged my memory of something I read in a book a few >years ago. Miners or colliers were classed by the mine owners and the >'upper' classes as the lowest form of the working classes and humans life in >general. I was shocked when I read that and it angered me at the time >because my Father (thankfully only for a few years), my Grandfathers on both >sides and most of my male relatives were colliers. I always admired them >for the dangerous work they did, my Grandfather was a brusher down the pit, >they say the most dangerous of all the jobs. They worked all their lives >in atrocious conditions to afford them who looked down on them the luxuries >of the times. > > > > >
Thankyou so much to everyone who replied. I now am able to access the images. I am most grateful to you all. Regards Jan Haggart
For what period of time. After 1790 there are recordss, before that as a Colony there isn't much. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: <handemom1@comcast.net> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:12 PM Subject: [MLN] Re: MIDLOTHIAN-D Digest V05 #41 > Does any know if there are emmigration records online? > > Paula in PA, USA > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > >
There is an excellent book about mine workers in Scotland - The Camerons, by Robert Crichton. You'll enjoy it. Fiction based on fact, like How Green Was My Valley, about miners in Wales. Mummy was with a theatre group in Wales early in the 1930's, at the time of a strike. With the mines shut down the town drew back into itself like a snail into its shell, hoarding money for food. The theatre closed its doors as tickets went unsold. The cast, who would have been paid from the box office, were stranded. They pooled what money they had and my mother drew out Postal Savings. A kind local man with a lorry offered to take them back to London if they could just pay for the petrol, as they didn't have enough for train fares... I doubt the mine owners missed a meal! Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension of pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for him were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to have a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! Sonia Murray Biloxi, MS USA Snip> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Reid [mailto:bluebel2@tpg.com.au] Subject: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records Reading this reply jogged my memory of something I read in a book a few years ago. Miners or colliers were classed by the mine owners and the 'upper' classes as the lowest form of the working classes and humans life in general. I was shocked when I read that and it angered me at the time because my Father (thankfully only for a few years), my Grandfathers on both sides and most of my male relatives were colliers. I always admired them for the dangerous work they did, my Grandfather was a brusher down the pit, they say the most dangerous of all the jobs. They worked all their lives in atrocious conditions to afford them who looked down on them the luxuries of the times. >
>I am hoping there is someone who can help with my attempts to access the >above records. I have been able to look at indexes and have gained lots of >information from them, but am unable to download the images. My screen >changes, but although I have waited for up to twenty minutes, no image >appears. I have an iMac computer with operating system 9 with Internet >Explorer 5, 256 memory and 56k dialup, which according to the help desk at >Scottish records, should be adequate. I have tried to contact them, but have >had no reply. I'd be grateful for any suggestions. It is so frustrating to >keep paying and getting a blank screen, but I'm an old girl with very little >expertise so I am wondering if there is something simple that I should be >doing. Jan, I have had similar problems with a very similar computer set-up. Actually, I used to be able to get the images perfectly - had trouble with Netscape, so I canged to Internet Explorer and for months had no problems. Suddenly, IE didn't work any more. For that session, I borrowed my son's computer with MacOs X but a later session produced the same problem so I downloaded Mozilla, again no problems. Then after their latest upgrade I couldn't get the images on Mozilla either. Eventually after no response (they *used* to be very helpful) I found the page on the site where you can change your details, and re-set my options for a direct download. This means that instead of viewing the file on screen it will be saved to your computer. You then need some sort of graphics software to view the image. I think you may have "Picture Viewer" as part of your operating system in which case when you double click on the file it will open automatically. Or, I also have graphic converter which I can open the file in, Photoshop will work too. Now a happy user again (though I do wish they'd answer their e-mail) Of course if you have paid for any images and haven't seen them, they will still be available for you to look at without any further payment. Catherine