On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:51:24 -0600, "Gil & Sonia Murray" <happyman70@bellsouth.net> wrote: >My G-grandfather, John Clark, b. 1828, was minister at Urr, >Kirkcudbrightshire in 1881. His wife was Janet Graham, b. 1838. Is there a >record of Presbyterian ministers showing where they trained, and when and >where they died? Sonia The following books apparently once appeared as part of a list of religious reference works on the Angus Mailing List: SMALL, R., HISTORY OF THE CONGREGATIONS OF THE UNITED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH FROM 1733 - 1900. (1904, David M. Small, Edinburgh.) MacKELVIE, William, ANNALS and STATISTICS OF THE UNITED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH. (1873, Oliphant and Co., Edinburgh.) HUTCHISON, Matthew, THE REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN SCOTLAND, 1680 - 1876. (1893. J and R. Parlane, Paisley.) COUPER, William J., THE REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN SCOTLAND, ITS CONGREGATIONS, MINISTERS and STUDENTS. A Fasti of this church from 1743 - 1876. (1925, United Free Church of Scotland Publication Dept., Edinburgh.) I believe that the first of these, by David Small, might be the best for your purposes, but as I haven't looked at it recently, I can't confirm it. >His son Robert, a student and drapery warehouse assistant >at Edinburgh in 1881, became a director and then managing director of Lamson >Paragon Supply Co. in London, and was what we'd now call a road warrior - >overseas so often that "commercial traveller" became a family joke. I was >told he was also a lawyer, or studied law. Is there a record of Edinburgh >law students? His brother John was named as a solicitor at Edinburgh in >1907, when Robert (also known as Robert John) made his will. Although there are registers of Advocates and Writers to Her Majesty's Signet, as far as I know there was no published complete register of "lesser" solicitors, like Solicitors in the Supreme Courts (SSC). However, Oliver and Boyd's Edinburgh Almanac is a good source of information, and I happen to have their 1907 edition. Although it has no entry for Robert (or Robert John) Clark, it has two possible matches for John: Clark, J S, SSC (J & D Smith Clark WS) 24 Drumsheugh Gardens. Clark, John, SSC (W & J Burness WS) 12 Hope Street W & J Burness became one of Scotland's leading legal firms, and until at least the mid-90s was still based in Hope Street. It has now moved to larger premises and calls itself Burness - see http://www.burness.co.uk/index.asp As regards researching graduates from the University of Edinburgh, see http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/resources/collections/specdivision/eua.shtml Forrest -- Forrest Anderson - British Military Genealogical Researcher. E-mail: forrest@military-researcher.com Website: www.military-researcher.com

Hi Sonia I'm sorry I can't answer your question, but I was interested to note the GRAHAM surname, and the connection to the Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in your email. Family lore states that my grandfather's Uncle, David Jamieson GRAHAM of Glasgow, was a Director of the Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in Leicester in the early to mid 1900's. He certainly worked for them, and lived in Leicester. My grandfather, Peter Graham ROSS from Paisley, became the "road warrior"/ "commercial traveller" for the Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in Ireland, and later had an office in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Family lore states that he was offered a post in South Africa with same Company first, but turned it down so his cousin Hugh GRAHAM went there and apparently 'did very well'. Another cousin of my Grandfather's, Dick (Richard) GRAHAM from Glasgow, worked in the London office and probably would have known your Robert CLARK. I hope to access some Lamson Paragon records sometime to find out more! Best Wishes, Cyndy

Thought you folks would enjoy this. Some of you have probably seen it, but some will find it to be the treasure I did. My ancestors worked at Niddry. Pages 303 - 307 of My Schools and Schoolmasters, or The Story of My Education An Autobiography by Hugh Miller 1854 There were at this time several collier villages in the neighborhood of Edinburgh, which have since disappeared. They were situated on what were called the " edge-coals," -those steep seams of the Mid-Lothian Coal Basin, which, lying low in the system, have got a more vertical tilt against the trap eminences of the south and west than the upper seams in the middle of the field, and which, as they could not be followed in their abrupt descent beyond a certain depth, are now regarded, for at least the practical purposes of the miner, and until the value of coal shall have risen considerably, as wrought out. One of these villages, whose foundations can no longer be traced, occurred in the immediate vicinity of Niddry Mill. It was a wretched assemblage of dingy, low-roofed, tile-covered hovels, each of which perfectly resembled all the others, and was inhabited by a rude and ignorant race of men, that still bore about them the soil and stain of recent slavery. Curious as the fact may seem, all the older men of that village, though situated little more than four miles from Edinburgh, had been born slaves. Nay, eighteen years later (in 1842), when Parliament issued a commission to inquire into the nature and results of female labor in the coal-pits of Scotland, there was a collier still living that had never been twenty miles from the Scottish capital, who could state to the Commissioners that both his father and grandfather had been slaves, - that he himself had been born a slave,-and that he had wrought for years in a pit in the neighborhood of Musselburgh ere the colliers got their freedom. Father and grand-father had been parishioners of the late Dr. Carlyle of Inveresk. They were contemporary with Chatham and Cowper, and Burke and Fox; and at a time when Granville Sharpe could have stepped forward and effectually protected, in virtue of his own statute, the runaway negro who had taken refuge from the tyranny of his master in a British port, no man could have protected them, from the Inveresk laird, their proprietor, had they dared to exercise the right, common to all Britons besides, of removing to some other locality, or of making choice of some other employment. Strange enough, surely, that so entire a fragment of the barbarous past should have been thus dovetailed into the age not yet wholly passed away! I regard it as one of the more singular circumstances of my life, that I should have conversed with Scotchmen who had been born slaves. The collier women of this village, poor over-toiled creatures, who carried up all the coal from 'under ground on their backs, by a long turnpike stair inserted in one of the shafts, bore more of the marks of serfdom still about them than even the men. How these poor women did labor, and how thoroughly, even at this time, were they characterized by the slave-nature! It has been estimated by a man who knew well them, Mr. Robert Bald, that one of their ordinary day's work was equal to the carrying of a hundredweight from the level of the sea to the top of Ben Lomond. They were marked by a peculiar type of mouth, from which I learned to distinguish them from all the other females of the country. It was wide, open, thick-lipped, projecting' equally above and below, and exactly resembled that which we find in the prints given of savages in their lowest and most degraded state, in such narratives of our modern voyagers as, for instance, the " Narrative of Captain Fitzroy's Second Voyage of the Beagle." During, however, the lapse of the past twenty years this type of mouth seems to have disappeared in Scotland. It was accompanied by traits of almost infantile' weakness. I have seen these collier women crying like children, when toiling under their load along the upper rounds: of the wooden stair that traversed the shaft; and then returning, scarce a minute after, with the empty creer, singing with glee. The collier houses were chiefly remarkable, for being all alike, outside and in all were equally dingy, dirty, naked, and uncomfortable. I first learned to suspect, in this rude village, that the democratic watchword, "Liberty and Equality," is somewhat faulty in its philosophy. Slavery and Equality would be nearer the mark. Wherever there is liberty, the original differences between man and man begin to manifest themselves in their external circumstances, and the equality straightway ceases. It is through slavery that equality, among at least the masses, is to be fully attained.* I found but little intelligence in the neighborhood, among even the villagers and country people, that stood on a higher platform than the colliers. The fact may be variously accounted for; but so it is, that though there is almost always more than the average amount of knowledge and acquirement amongst the mechanics of large towns, the little hamlets and villages by which they are surrounded are usually inhabited by a class considerably below the average. In M. Quetelet's interesting "Treatise on Man," we find a series of maps given, which, based on extensive statistical tables, exhibit by darker and lighter shadings the moral and intellectual character of the people in the various districts of the countries which they represent. In one map, for instance, representative of the state of education in France, while certain well-taught provinces are represented by a bright tint, as if enjoying the light, there are others, in which great ignorance obtains, that exhibit a deep shade of blackness, as if a cloud rested over them; and the general aspect of the whole is that of a landscape seen from a hill-top in a day of dappled light and shadow. There are certain minuter shadings, however, by which certain curious facts might be strikingly represented to the eye in this manner, for which statistical tables furnish no adequate basis, but which men who have seen a good deal of the people of a country might be able to give in a manner at least approximately correct. In a shaded map representative of the intelligence of Scotland, I would be disposed-sinking the lapsed classes, or representing them merely by 'a few such dark spots as mottle the sun to represent the large towns as centres of focal brightness; but each of these focal centres I would encircle with a halo of darkness considerably deeper in shade than the medium spaces beyond. I found that in the tenebrious halo of the Scottish capital there existed, independently of the ignorance of the poor colliers, three distinct elements. A considerable proportion of the villagers were farm servants in the decline of life, who, unable any longer to pro-cure, as in their days of unbroken strength, regular engagements from the farmers of the district, supported themselves as occasional laborers. And they, of course, were characterized by the ignorance of their class. Another portion of the people were carters, employed mainly, in these times, ere the rail-ways began, in supplying the Edinburgh coal-market, and in driving building materials into the city from the various quarries. And carters as a class, like all who live much in the society of horses, are invariably ignorant and unintellectual. A third, but greatly smaller portion than either of the other two, consisted of mechanics; but it was only mechanics of an inferior order, that remained outside the city to work for carters and laborers : the better skilled, and, as to a certain extent the terms are convertible, the more intelligent mechanics, found employment and a home in Edinburgh. The cottage in which I lodged was inhabited by an old farm-servant,-a tall, large-bodied, small-headed man, who, in his journey through life, seemed to have picked up scarce an idea ; and his wife, a woman turned of sixty, though a fine enough body in the main, and a careful manager, was not more intellectual. They had but a single apartment in their humble dwelling, fenced off by a little bit of partition from the outer door; and I could fain have wished that they had two; but there was no choice of lodgings in the village, and I had just to content myself, as the working man always must in such circumstances, with the shelter I could get. My bed was situated in the one end of the room, and my landlady's and her husband's in the other, with the passage by which we entered between ; but decent old Peggy Russel had been accustomed to such arrangements all her life long, and seemed never once to think of the matter ; and--as she had reached that period of life at which women of the humbler class assume the characteristics of the other sex, somewhat, I suppose, on the principle on which very ancient female birds put on male plumage - I in a short time ceased to think of it also. It is not the less true, however, that the purposes of decency demand that much should be done, especially in the southern and midland districts of Scotland, for the dwellings of the poor. * The act for manumitting our Scotch colliers was passed in the year 1775, forty-nine years prior to the date of my acquaintance with the class at Niddry. But though it was only such colliers of the village as were in their fiftieth year when I knew them (with, of course, all the older ones), who had been born slaves, even its men of thirty had actually, though not nominally, come into the world in a state of bondage, in consequence of certain penalties attached to the emancipating act, of which the poor ignorant workers under ground were both too improvident and too little ingenious to keep clear. They were set free, however, by a second act passed in 1799. The language of both these acts, regarded as British ones of the latter half of the last century, and as bearing reference to British subjects living within the limits of the island, strikes with startling effect. " Whereas," says the preamble of the older act - that of 1775 -" by the statute law of Scotland, as explained by the judges of the courts of law there, many colliers, and coal-bearers, and salters, are in a state of slavery or bondage, bound to the collieries or salt-works where they work for life, transferable with the collieries and salt-works; and whereas the emancipating," &c. &c. A passage in the preamble of the act of 1799 is scarce less striking: it declares that, notwithstanding the former act, "many colliers and coal-bearers still continue in a state of bondage" in Scotland. The history of our Scotch colliers would be found a curious and instructive one. Their slavery seems not to have been derived from the ancient times of general serf hip, but to have originated in comparatively modern acts of the Scottish Parliament, and in decisions of the Court of Sessions,-acts of a Parliament in which the poor ignorant subterranean men of the country were, of course, wholly unrepresented, and in decisions of a Court in which no agent of theirs ever made appearance in their behalf.

The marriage of PETER THORNTON and CATHERINE WADDELL about 1820, is not listed on Scotland's People. Any suggestions where I might look next, to document this marriage? Many thanks, Jeannette

Dear Cyndy, This is fascinating! I'd bet your Grahams and John Clark's wife, Janet Graham, are related, and that is how my Robert Clark became involved with Lamson Paragon. I've seen the same thing down in Belize - people from Scotland, Sheffield, and Ireland who were doing well cutting mahogany and logwood there in the 1790's had relatives who went out to join them in business there. I don't see a David Jamison Graham in the following, but I bet he connects in some way, perhaps a cousin? Source: IGI entries from LDS controlled extraction of parish registers: John Clark, aged 31 (= b. ca. 1829) and Jane Graham aged 21 (i.e. born ca. 1839) married 10 Jan 1860 at Dalmeny, West Lothian, Scotland. John's parents were Robert Clark and Catherine Stark; Jane's parents were James Graham and Janet Flint. Source: Parish register, film 0538627. The IGI does not include Jane Graham's birth or her parents' marriage. Since she married at Dalmeny in 1860, I checked the 1861 census of Dalmeny, FHL film #0103919, and found two Graham families, one of whom matches the information given at her marriage: Enumeration District 1, page 4 and 5, schedule 19, Bankhead Farm House, 8 rooms: JAMES GRAHAM, head, mar, 69, Farmer, 162 ac. 6 Labrs 1 Boy, b. Edinbr. Kirknewton JANET do. Wife mar 61 born Linlithy, Uphall MARY do. Daur un 40 b. Edinr. Kirknewton CATHERINE do. " " 38 " " WILLIAM do. Son " 37 " " Janet Preston, Serv., un, 19, b. Edinb. Sogar Mary Kelly do. Un 22 b. Ireland, Co. Cavan David Robertson do do 19 Ploughman b. Linlith, Bathgate James Simson do do 17 do. Lillith Dalmeny Frank Rowley do do 27 Labr. Agr. Ireland Leithim Apparently three of the laborers and the boy did not live on the farm. Columns for disability and for children aged 6-16 attending school were blank. Column for number of rooms in house: 8. A child named WILLIAM GRAHAM was christened 27 Jun 1824 at Kirknewton to JAMES GRAHAM and CATHERINE TAYLOR, see film 1067763. This suggests that Janet Flint was a second wife. William's marriage cert. ca. 1865 - see below, child aged 12 in 1881 - will name his mother. James and Janet's death certs. can be checked at the SRO and her maiden name and their parents' names verified. It seems probable that William married after his father James's death; James was 69 in 1861, and William had a 12 year old son in 1881, i.e. born ca. 1869. It is a fair assumption that James died 1861-1868. Neither he nor Janet appear in the 1881 CD index. Source: FHL Film 0203707 GRO Ref Volume 667 EnumDist 4 Page 23 Wheatlands Farm House, Kirkliston, Linlithgow, Scotland WILLIAM GRAHAM head mar 57 b. Kirknewton, Edinburgh, (= b. 1824) Farmer (495 Ac, 491 arable, employing 11 Men 10 Women 4 Boys) Mary GRAHAM wife 37 Carriden, Linlithgow, Scotland James GRAHAM son 12 scholar Dalmeny, Linlithgow, Scotland Jessie Mc C. GRAHAM dau 10 " Dalmeny, Linlithgow, Scotland Joanna J. GRAHAM " 6 " Kirkliston, Linlithgow, Scotland Wiliamina GRAHAM " 4 Kirkliston, Linlithgow, Scotland George W. GRAHAM son 11 months Kirkliston, Linlithgow, Scotland Isabella HILL widow mother 70 Uphall, Linlithgow, Scotland Isabella STEVENSON serv 24 dom serv Kirkliston, Linlithgow, Scotland William's oldest son is named James for his father. Why Jessie McC Graham, not Jessie Flint Graham? Mary Graham, a 40 year old spinster in 1861, is not listed in 1881. Catherine Graham, 38 in 1861, was boarding in 1881 with Alexander Morrison, aged 61, farmer of 173 a. born South Leith, Edinburgh,, and his wife Charlotte, aged 45, b. Dalmeny, at Newton, Abercorn, Lillithgow, film 0203706, En. Dist 2, p. 5: Catherine Graham, unmarried, 58, boarder born Kirknewton, Edinburgh. The IGI shows (Film 1067763) JAMES GRAHAM born 15 May 1790 at Kirknewton and East Caldor, Midlothian, to William Graham or Graeme and Christian Graham. This couple married 1 Sep 1787 at Kirknewton. William may be the William Graham christened 9 Dec 1767 to William Graham and Katherine Bishop at Kirknewton, same film - it was unusual for a 20 year old man to marry at that time, however, most men waited until they were able to support a family. There are many Christian Grahams listed in the IGI, none at Kirknewton or otherwise identifiable from the minimal information given. The film should be searched for information on parents The IGI shows (Film 1066638) that JANET FLINT was christened 20 Oct 1797 at Upshall, West Lothian, to David Flint and Mary Flint. This couple married 8 Jun 1795 at Uphall. David Flint was christened 17 April 1769 to Thomas Flint and Isabell Gray at Uphall. The marriage of this couple is not shown in the IGI. Isn't genealogy fun! All the best, Sonia -----Original Message----- From: Cyndy Cotton [mailto:cyndy_cotton@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:06 AM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] RE: Records of Presbyterian ministers and solicitors Hi Sonia I'm sorry I can't answer your question, but I was interested to note the GRAHAM surname, and the connection to the Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in your email. Family lore states that my grandfather's Uncle, David Jamieson GRAHAM of Glasgow, was a Director of the Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in Leicester in the early to mid 1900's. He certainly worked for them, and lived in Leicester. My grandfather, Peter Graham ROSS from Paisley, became the "road warrior"/ "commercial traveller" for the Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in Ireland, and later had an office in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Family lore states that he was offered a post in South Africa with same Company first, but turned it down so his cousin Hugh GRAHAM went there and apparently 'did very well'. Another cousin of my Grandfather's, Dick (Richard) GRAHAM from Glasgow, worked in the London office and probably would have known your Robert CLARK. I hope to access some Lamson Paragon records sometime to find out more! Best Wishes, Cyndy

If anyone wants to see the full text of the 3 acts of Parliament (1609, 1775 and 1799)relating to the bondage of colliers, you can find them on my website. www.hoodfamily.info There'a few small bits I've transcribed from some mining records too. The narrative histories on three of the Hood family (David, William and Thomas) shows how a family was affected by being bound to one particular coalworks. Some early mining records have survived but mainly for three reasons. Either they have survived in papers from court cases, or in estate papers from places where the landowner ran his own mines, or they were retained in solicitors offices due to a legal dispute. Quite a few deposited records at the national Archives of Scotland have come from solicitors offices which explains why there's plenty of leases and legal stuff but little else. Albert

Hello, On an eariler post I made a few incorrect queries, so, I want to put everything on the right track. The following information is in the corrected form. Sorry and thanks. I am looking for information of a David Gibson b.1741/42 in Edinburgh, Scotland, died 30 Aug. 1812 in Lincoln Co., NC. He married Jane (known as Jenny, Jennett) Miller daughter b.Apr 1752 in Charleston SC, d. 3 Nov 1840 in Cleveland Co., NC. I found a pardon (1771 Regulator Pardon) and a David Gibson was among many names that were listed. This would put my David in this place at about this time. David was listed MIA from the Battle of King's Mountain (Revolutionary War). After his death in 1812 two of his sons James Gibson (my line)b. 1772, NC or Soctland, d. bef. 1850 in Sevier Co., TN and David Gibson b. abt. 1780, Lincoln Co. NC, d. 1837, Blount Co., TN moved with their families and extened families (Jenkins, Partons, Halls, Huffstetler, etc.) to East Tennessee. James Gibson went to Sevier Co. and David Gibson to Blount Co. If anyone has information I would be greatful if you would share. I want to find where David (#1) sailed from, when he arrived, where he landed and how come he settle in SC. I would like to find this line of the Gibson family in Scotland, also, those still in NC. I understand that some of David's (#2) line moved toward the west. If anyone has helpful information, thank you in advance. Tika Tika Gibson University of Tennessee at Knoxville Reserve Department Hodges Library 974-4121

Hi The Duke was noted for his exposure to cannon fire in many battles At Waterloo the colonel next to him had his leg shot off. In India he had many narrow misses He was a "Soldiers General" even though he was a bit scathing at times. Suggest you update your reading of the Napoleonic Wars Peter MacAuslan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alistair Cameron" <acameron@hinet.net.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [MLN] Mine Worker Records > > > Gil & Sonia Murray wrote: > > > Well, I'm glad to hear the Duke said something nice to mitigate his ugly > > remark. Maybe he wasn't so bad after all - but I bet he stayed in the rear > > giving orders, well out of cannon range. > > > > "Help the girl that Tommy's left behind him..." What in the world would > > have happened to the children if the father was killed? I suspect pensions > > were pitifully small back then! > > Yes and so was income tax!! A relationship existed. But in the "good old > days" church congregations were large, people knew the name of the parish they > lived in. Ask your friends <what parish> they live in, you may find very few > can answer. > > The churches were the source of charity, poor support etc in the days before > Welfare and Social Security. Community power [it's coming back!] did those > chores neglected by central government. > > Cheers, > > ALISTAIR > >

Hello, Please can anyone tell me about a Peel House / Peet House /Past House in Linlithgow ? I cannot make it out on a death certificate for 1912. Any advise appreciated Merrylee

Hello All, I'm curious and have tried to find some info online, but haven't really come up with anything. I've several relatives who were coal miners and then on later census records were listed as 'lunatics' Has anyone ever heard of coal mining and the effects on ones mental health?? I was wondering if the 'lunacy' could have been a result of mining or if I come from a family of 'lunatics.' Thanks Much and Happy Hunting, Lorraine PS - should anyone email me and I not respond, it's not because I'm being rude. I'm battling with my ISP provider for blocking loads of domains without my knowledge. Many of the domains are from people on the lists and I simply don't get the mail from them.

Gil & Sonia Murray wrote: > Well, I'm glad to hear the Duke said something nice to mitigate his ugly > remark. Maybe he wasn't so bad after all - but I bet he stayed in the rear > giving orders, well out of cannon range. > > "Help the girl that Tommy's left behind him..." What in the world would > have happened to the children if the father was killed? I suspect pensions > were pitifully small back then! Yes and so was income tax!! A relationship existed. But in the "good old days" church congregations were large, people knew the name of the parish they lived in. Ask your friends <what parish> they live in, you may find very few can answer. The churches were the source of charity, poor support etc in the days before Welfare and Social Security. Community power [it's coming back!] did those chores neglected by central government. Cheers, ALISTAIR

Maybe he did stay back out of range, but if you are commanding the battle, it is arguably somewhat irresponsible to go & get yourself bumped off! Best wishes, Sheena >Well, I'm glad to hear the Duke said something nice to mitigate his ugly >remark. Maybe he wasn't so bad after all - but I bet he stayed in the rear >giving orders, well out of cannon range. >All the best, >Sonia

Hi folks, His Grace did indeed refer to his Irish foot soldiers as the "scum of the earth" but he also made it clear how much he admired them and they adored "Old Nosey" as they called him because of his hooked nose. He is also regarded as one of the few great generals in history who agonised over the death of any of his soldiers and was renowned for carefully considering every battlefield in order to minimise casualties. He was the first general in Europe to break the convention of lining all his men up facing the enemy and instead placed most of his men on the reverse slope of any hill so that the enemy cannon couldn't kill thousands in the early stages of the battle, a tactic he applied at Waterloo to devastating effect as Marshal Ney discovered. As to his origins, he was indeed from the top drawer, being the younger son of an Earl but not with Royal connections. However his English kinsmen looked down their noses at him because his family was Anglo-Irish. However he did get his first big break in India because his brother was the Deputy Governor-General and appointed Colonel Wellesley as he then was to command some of the army which took on various Indian Princes and successfully annexed numerous states for Britain and British India. Regards Mark John M. Sutherland-Fisher Past President and Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-Genealogist: Clan Mackenzie Professional Genealogist and Director: Fisher (Holiday Enterprises) Ltd web-site: www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk email: info@highland-family-heritage.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] Sent: 01 February 2005 19:19 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records Sheena: Also if my memory is correct Wellington himself was not real high born, not the scum of the earth, but not top drawer either until he received all of his honors. For that matter almost all of the lower ranks in all of the armies were low lifes! Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Ireland" <ireland@pavilion.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:40 PM Subject: RE: [MLN] Re: Mine Worker Records > Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington > went on to say, "But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" which > makes it not quite so bad! > > Best wishes, > Sheena Ireland > > > Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, > James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron > Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot > through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension > of > pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for > him > were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to > have > a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! > > Sonia Murray > Biloxi, MS USA > > > > >

"But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" Well that probably is true ! My Grandfather who I mentioned in my first email, enlisted in 1914 and went thru WW1 until 1918. At the time of enlisting, he was 43 years old, and came out of the pub one Saturday and straight into the recruiting office, he left a wife and nine children and marched off to the battlefields of France, he went thru the Somme and other bloody battles. Meanwhile Haig and his cronies were making a complete *&%^* of things in the comfort of company headquarters or his London home. I have a photo of my Grandfather in a family photo after the war, with his five medals pinned on his waistcoat , it has pride of place in my lounge room. Aye they bred them tough in those days. The scum of the earth won 'the war to end all wars' . Elizabeth > Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington > went on to say, which > makes it not quite so bad! > > Best wishes, > Sheena Ireland > > > Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, > James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron > Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot > through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension of > pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for him > were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to have > a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! > > Sonia Murray > Biloxi, MS USA > > ______________________________

Hi List, I have a friend who is looking for information on a Walter RONALDSON married to Janet WIGHT, they had a daughter Mary RONALDSON b:21 Apr 1793 Melrose, Roxburghshire. Mary RONALDSON married John HALL 7 Mar 1814 and she died 19 Nov 1878, Halltree,Stow, Midlothian. I was hoping that someone may know what cemetery they would be likely to be buried at and if there are any MI's available. Walter RONALDSON may have been born about 1766 in Darnick,Roxburghshire OR the son of George RONALDSON and Christian FISHER c: 16 Apr 1769 at Melrose OR c:21 Mar 1773, parents Andrew RONALDSON and Mary LEE. Looking forward to any leads regards Kerry

The regulars of World War II proudly called themselves the "Old Contemptibles". It was an achievement in itself to return alive from this hellish conflict, moira Elizabeth Reid wrote: >"But see what fine soldiers we have made of them!" > >Well that probably is true ! My Grandfather who I mentioned in my first >email, enlisted in 1914 and went thru WW1 until 1918. At the time of >enlisting, he was 43 years old, and came out of the pub one Saturday and >straight into the recruiting office, he left a wife and nine children and >marched off to the battlefields of France, he went thru the Somme and other >bloody battles. Meanwhile Haig and his cronies were making a complete *&%^* >of things in the comfort of company headquarters or his London home. I have >a photo of my Grandfather in a family photo after the war, with his five >medals pinned on his waistcoat , it has pride of place in my lounge room. >Aye they bred them tough in those days. >The scum of the earth won 'the war to end all wars' . > >Elizabeth > > > > > > > > > >>Regarding the remark about the"scum of the earth": apparently Wellington >>went on to say, which >>makes it not quite so bad! >> >>Best wishes, >>Sheena Ireland >> >> >>Poor people have never received the rspect they deserve. One of my GGG's, >>James Pocock, was an illiterate soldier who fought with the Cameron >>Highlanders through the Peninsula Campaigns and was crippled when shot >>through both thighs at Waterloo. He received five medals - and a pension >> >> >of > > >>pennies. The noble Duke of Wellington said the soldiers who fought for >> >> >him > > >>were "the scum of the earth." Should there be a hereafter, I intend to >> >> >have > > >>a word with His Wretched Grace which he won't like, about that remark! >> >>Sonia Murray >>Biloxi, MS USA >> >>______________________________ >> >> > > > >

My G-grandfather, John Clark, b. 1828, was minister at Urr, Kirkcudbrightshire in 1881. His wife was Janet Graham, b. 1838. Is there a record of Presbyterian ministers showing where they trained, and when and where they died? His son Robert, a student and drapery warehouse assistant at Edinburgh in 1881, became a director and then managing director of Lamson Paragon Supply Co. in London, and was what we'd now call a road warrior - overseas so often that "commercial traveller" became a family joke. I was told he was also a lawyer, or studied law. Is there a record of Edinburgh law students? His brother John was named as a solicitor at Edinburgh in 1907, when Robert (also known as Robert John) made his will. Appreciate your help! Sonia in the U.S.

Thanks, all, for the posts regarding the miners. The information that you all have provided has been very illuminating. I had no idea of the Acts in place and the idea of miner serfs/slaves. It's hard enough to imagine the work they did day to day; but to add a forced, bound nature to their lives. Ugh. So many of the men in my family are listed as Shale Miner or Coal Miner....so many. I am noticing they all have the same address Russels Row, Bathgate, part of the mine provided housing. I think I now appreciate a bit more about why folks left; although my family left much later than the worst of this era. Best wishes, Allison

Hi Jacey My William McMillan b.1822 Married Elizabeth Kay b.1816 so I guess it is totally different. Happy Hunting Merrylee

Hi Jacey, I have a McMillan and Kay marriage 1849 from Old Cumnock.....any connection? regards Merrylee