Mike: Actually you don't live too far from what could be called a close. In Quebec in the old city and near the central square is a little street with houses behind each other. I took photos of that some years back.. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Morris" <morrisind@rogers.com> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 3:10 PM Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >I just want to say, thank you, I found this subject about what is a Close > etc was very interesting. I have seen the map, the area has an interesting > layout, not quite like a fishes bones and yet very Close (forgive the pun) > I > would have loved to have seen the hustle and bustle that went on in these > places 150 years ago. > > I assume Cannon gate wound its way down a hill with these 'Close's' > running > off on each side of Cannon gate. > > Cheers > Mike Morris > Toronto Canada > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liz Parkinson" <parkinsonliz@hotmail.com> > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 12:56 PM > Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > >> yes I have heard of the Battle of Bannockburn, I just thought perhaps > there >> was particular thing going on. I know there was trouble in Tudor/Stuart >> times, but not too knowledgeable generally on Scottish history >> >> Liz >> >> >From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >> >Reply-To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> >Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:43:52 -0000 >> > >> >In those days there was always fighting have you never heard of the > Battle >> >of Bannockburn >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Liz Parkinson [mailto:parkinsonliz@hotmail.com] >> >Sent: 21 March 2005 15:47 >> >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> > >> >excuse my ignorance of Scottish hoistory - what invasion >> > >> >Liz >> > >> > >From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >> > >Reply-To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> > >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> > >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> > >Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:15:59 -0000 >> > > >> > >Think of the Royal Mile as the spine of a fish. >> > >Building was done on either side and down the closes. >> > >People only lived in the High Street so they needed as many houses as >> > >possible that is why the houses were built so high. >> > >Once you get to the Canongate things change as that was out side the > city >> > >walls. They then built houses with more space between them, but this > was >> > >not >> > >popular at the time as people were afraid to live out side the gates > for >> > >fear of the invasion mainly. >> > >Hope you understand this. >> > >Regards >> > >Eleanor >> > > >> > >-----Original Message----- >> > >From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] >> > >Sent: 21 March 2005 15:04 >> > >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> > >Subject: Re: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> > > >> > >Eleanor: I had figured that much out, but what really interests me is > why >> > >they were made in the first place, some appear to be architeckial gems >> >and >> > >what prompted them to be build behind existing buildings or to have >> > >buildings built in front of them. >> > > >> > > Gordon >> > >----- Original Message ----- >> > >From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >> > >To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> > >Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:56 AM >> > >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> > > >> > > >> > > > Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the >> > > > same >> >way >> > > > as >> > > > you came in. >> > > > Hope this helps >> > > > Regards >> > > > Eleanor >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] >> > > > Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 >> > > > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> > > > Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> > > > >> > > > Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first >> > >place, >> > > > shortage of flat land or what? >> > > > >> > > > Gordon >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 >> >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 > > >

Hello Jane, Many thanks, this is excellent research. I really do appreciate your taking the time during your lunch break to look this up for me. The #6 is correct according to the birth record. The name Eugenie , I think must be Sarah Jane. She was born on March the 21 1871. Matilda was my great grandmother. This information from you deserves a pat on the back :)) Should you have time to spare . I would love to see a copy of this record. The BRANNON name is interesting, seeing as he is a Gold Beater and his wife is from Manchester. I wondered if she might have been a sister to my John ATKIN. John had a sister named Mary born in Manchester in 1847. ( I know this is really speculating) <grin> I have come across other Gold Beaters in other branches of this family. Its strange how the census taker would mark some as born in England and one born in Manchester. My best wishes in your own search. Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "roger kelly" <roger.kelly1@virgin.net> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > Hi Mike, > Here is what I read before I had the advantage of your email! There was an S > on ATKIN > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Edinburgh, Canongate > 685/3/31 page 5 > Old Church except North(?) Side from 242 - 254, inclusive. Embracing > Pirrie's Close and Gibb's Close. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > 4 Pirrie's Close - 2 rooms with one window or more. > John ATKINS Head, M, 30.. ..Gold Beater, born England > Emma ATKINS, wife, M, 29...........born England > Matilda ATKINS, daur, 4, scholar... born England > William ATKINS, son, 2,.... born England > Eugenie (?) ATKINS daur, 1mo,.... born Edinburgh > John BRANNON, Boarder, M 29, Gold Beater ...born Edinburgh > Maud(?) BRANNON, Boarder, M, 25, Boarder.. born Manchester > Emma BRANNON Boarder, 11months..... born Edinburgh. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (?) means I stuggled with the word and it is open to interpretation. 2 of us > looked at Eugenie. > So we should have read Sarah! > I wrote no 4. Perhaps it was 6. There were several households at each > number. > I didn't see Thomas. I looked at the rest of Pirrie's Close and didn't > notice any other ATKINs. > > Hope this helps but I could look again another time if you want me to check > or try to send you a copy. The machines with printers were busy. > > Best Wishes, > Jane > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Morris" <morrisind@rogers.com> > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:53 PM > Subject: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > > > > Hi Jane, > > Thank you for your generous offer. I really would appreciate it if you can > > spare the time to look this up. > > > > The family lived at #6 Pirrie's Close in March of 1871. District > > Cannongate, > > Burgh of > > Edinburgh, Scotland. > > > > John Atkin Trade was a Goldbeater b1841 Salford Lancashire > > Wife Emma b1842 Salford > > Son Thomas b1862 England > > Dau Matilda B1867 Salford > > Son William b1869 Salford > > Dau Sarah Ann born 21 March 1871 at above listed address in Scotland. > > > > Please could you also see if there are any other ATKIN families living in > > Pirrie's Close. I am curious to see if John ATKIN'S parents John and Mary > > ATKIN might be near by or some of his siblings. > > > > Best wishes > > Mike Morris > > Toronto Canada > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "roger kelly" <roger.kelly1@virgin.net> > > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:41 AM > > Subject: Re: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > > > > > >> Hi Mike, > >> > >> If no previous offers, I will happily look up the 1871 Pirrie's Close, in > > my > >> lunch hour. > >> > >> Best Wishes, > >> Jane <snip> > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05

Think of the Royal Mile as the spine of a fish. Building was done on either side and down the closes. People only lived in the High Street so they needed as many houses as possible that is why the houses were built so high. Once you get to the Canongate things change as that was out side the city walls. They then built houses with more space between them, but this was not popular at the time as people were afraid to live out side the gates for fear of the invasion mainly. Hope you understand this. Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] Sent: 21 March 2005 15:04 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh Eleanor: I had figured that much out, but what really interests me is why they were made in the first place, some appear to be architeckial gems and what prompted them to be build behind existing buildings or to have buildings built in front of them. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the same way > as > you came in. > Hope this helps > Regards > Eleanor > > -----Original Message----- > From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] > Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first place, > shortage of flat land or what? > > Gordon > > > > > >

I lived with my grandmother, mom and dad and younger brother for a short time during the war in Hulme, Manchester, Lancashire England. My gran lived in a one up and one down terraced house dating from around 1850. It had a small scullery with a door leading to a very small back yard which housed a toilet in a small building in the back yard. There was no cellar. The ground floor flooring was sand stone paving stones. She had one cold water tap and a two ring gas burner with a grill. The oven was part of her fireplace. She made wonderful Sunday dinners, baked excellent pies although fruit and sugar were scarce. The lighting was one gas lamp in the downstairs room. This was one of many terraced homes in the south part of Manchester. A lot of them were infested with large red flat bed bugs. I was told many years later this was due to them using horse hair to bond the plaster to the wood lathes on the walls and ceilings. But the war of the bugs is another story :)) Thanks for the memories......... :)) Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "gordon crooks" <glcrooks@bcpl.net> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > Roger: No wonder its called a close, thats 8 people in two rooms. > > Gordon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "roger kelly" <roger.kelly1@virgin.net> > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:54 PM > Subject: Re: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > > > > Hi Mike, > > Here is what I read before I had the advantage of your email! There was an > > S on ATKIN > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Edinburgh, Canongate > > 685/3/31 page 5 > > Old Church except North(?) Side from 242 - 254, inclusive. Embracing > > Pirrie's Close and Gibb's Close. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > > 4 Pirrie's Close - 2 rooms with one window or more. > > John ATKINS Head, M, 30.. ..Gold Beater, born England > > Emma ATKINS, wife, M, 29...........born England > > Matilda ATKINS, daur, 4, scholar... born England > > William ATKINS, son, 2,.... born England > > Eugenie (?) ATKINS daur, 1mo,.... born Edinburgh > > John BRANNON, Boarder, M 29, Gold Beater ...born Edinburgh > > Maud(?) BRANNON, Boarder, M, 25, Boarder.. born Manchester > > Emma BRANNON Boarder, 11months..... born Edinburgh. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > (?) means I stuggled with the word and it is open to interpretation. 2 of > > us looked at Eugenie. > > So we should have read Sarah! > > I wrote no 4. Perhaps it was 6. There were several households at each > > number. > > I didn't see Thomas. I looked at the rest of Pirrie's Close and didn't > > notice any other ATKINs. > > > > Hope this helps but I could look again another time if you want me to > > check or try to send you a copy. The machines with printers were busy. > > > > Best Wishes, > > Jane > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Morris" <morrisind@rogers.com> > > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:53 PM > > Subject: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > > > > > >> Hi Jane, > >> Thank you for your generous offer. I really would appreciate it if you > >> can > >> spare the time to look this up. > >> > >> The family lived at #6 Pirrie's Close in March of 1871. District > >> Cannongate, > >> Burgh of > >> Edinburgh, Scotland. > >> > >> John Atkin Trade was a Goldbeater b1841 Salford Lancashire > >> Wife Emma b1842 Salford > >> Son Thomas b1862 England > >> Dau Matilda B1867 Salford > >> Son William b1869 Salford > >> Dau Sarah Ann born 21 March 1871 at above listed address in Scotland. > >> > >> Please could you also see if there are any other ATKIN families living in > >> Pirrie's Close. I am curious to see if John ATKIN'S parents John and Mary > >> ATKIN might be near by or some of his siblings. > >> > >> Best wishes > >> Mike Morris > >> Toronto Canada > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "roger kelly" <roger.kelly1@virgin.net> > >> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:41 AM > >> Subject: Re: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > >> > >> > >>> Hi Mike, > >>> > >>> If no previous offers, I will happily look up the 1871 Pirrie's Close, > >>> in > >> my > >>> lunch hour. > >>> > >>> Best Wishes, > >>> Jane <snip> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05

There is a place in Edinburgh called Gorgie. Also an area called The Grange but they are a few miles from each other. Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: Elaine Williams [mailto:elaine_williams2@btinternet.com] Sent: 21 March 2005 13:28 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] Gorgiemain Hi all, Could someone please tell me where,or what, gorgiemain was in 1817. I know it was around the Parish of St Cuthberts area as listed on a proclamation of marriage certificate the groom is listed as a labourer at gorgiemain. The father of the bride is listed as a labourer at Grange Toll; again where or what was this? Take Care Elaine Williams

Best guess is the death happened in his house. He was obviously living in the said house hence occupier. Maybe the mother was dead! Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: Alcnwondr@aol.com [mailto:Alcnwondr@aol.com] Sent: 21 March 2005 12:51 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] Occupier - need definition Mary Jane Bowman, 4 year old illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Bowman, died at Cockpen in May of 1868. The informant signed himself as James Halliday, "Occupier." Can someone please tell me what that means? What is an "occupier" and might it signify a relationship with the mother, Elizabeth Bowman? Thanks -- Alice

Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the same way as you came in. Hope this helps Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first place, shortage of flat land or what? Gordon

O Liz: You opened the door for this one! "Maybe the English having gotten tired of all the heatheran invasions by those North of the Roman wall might have invaded in return! Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liz Parkinson" <parkinsonliz@hotmail.com> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > excuse my ignorance of Scottish hoistory - what invasion > > Liz > >>From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >>Reply-To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >>Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:15:59 -0000 >> >>Think of the Royal Mile as the spine of a fish. >>Building was done on either side and down the closes. >>People only lived in the High Street so they needed as many houses as >>possible that is why the houses were built so high. >>Once you get to the Canongate things change as that was out side the city >>walls. They then built houses with more space between them, but this was >>not >>popular at the time as people were afraid to live out side the gates for >>fear of the invasion mainly. >>Hope you understand this. >>Regards >>Eleanor >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] >>Sent: 21 March 2005 15:04 >>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> >>Eleanor: I had figured that much out, but what really interests me is why >>they were made in the first place, some appear to be architeckial gems and >>what prompted them to be build behind existing buildings or to have >>buildings built in front of them. >> >> Gordon >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >>To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:56 AM >>Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> >> >> > Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the same >> > way >> > as >> > you came in. >> > Hope this helps >> > Regards >> > Eleanor >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] >> > Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 >> > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> > Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> > >> > Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first >>place, >> > shortage of flat land or what? >> > >> > Gordon >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > > > >

Does any list member have any trade directories for Edinburgh from around the 1870 to 1880 time period? I was wondering if they might be able to locate a Goldbeater by the name of John ATKIN. Thanks Mike Morris Toronto Canada -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05

I just want to say, thank you, I found this subject about what is a Close etc was very interesting. I have seen the map, the area has an interesting layout, not quite like a fishes bones and yet very Close (forgive the pun) I would have loved to have seen the hustle and bustle that went on in these places 150 years ago. I assume Cannon gate wound its way down a hill with these 'Close's' running off on each side of Cannon gate. Cheers Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liz Parkinson" <parkinsonliz@hotmail.com> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 12:56 PM Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > yes I have heard of the Battle of Bannockburn, I just thought perhaps there > was particular thing going on. I know there was trouble in Tudor/Stuart > times, but not too knowledgeable generally on Scottish history > > Liz > > >From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> > >Reply-To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > >Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:43:52 -0000 > > > >In those days there was always fighting have you never heard of the Battle > >of Bannockburn > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Liz Parkinson [mailto:parkinsonliz@hotmail.com] > >Sent: 21 March 2005 15:47 > >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > > >excuse my ignorance of Scottish hoistory - what invasion > > > >Liz > > > > >From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> > > >Reply-To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > > >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > >Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:15:59 -0000 > > > > > >Think of the Royal Mile as the spine of a fish. > > >Building was done on either side and down the closes. > > >People only lived in the High Street so they needed as many houses as > > >possible that is why the houses were built so high. > > >Once you get to the Canongate things change as that was out side the city > > >walls. They then built houses with more space between them, but this was > > >not > > >popular at the time as people were afraid to live out side the gates for > > >fear of the invasion mainly. > > >Hope you understand this. > > >Regards > > >Eleanor > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] > > >Sent: 21 March 2005 15:04 > > >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > > > > >Eleanor: I had figured that much out, but what really interests me is why > > >they were made in the first place, some appear to be architeckial gems > >and > > >what prompted them to be build behind existing buildings or to have > > >buildings built in front of them. > > > > > > Gordon > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> > > >To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > >Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:56 AM > > >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > > > > > > > > > Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the same > >way > > > > as > > > > you came in. > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Regards > > > > Eleanor > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] > > > > Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 > > > > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > > > > Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > > > > > > > Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first > > >place, > > > > shortage of flat land or what? > > > > > > > > Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05

Hi all, Could someone please tell me where,or what, gorgiemain was in 1817. I know it was around the Parish of St Cuthberts area as listed on a proclamation of marriage certificate the groom is listed as a labourer at gorgiemain. The father of the bride is listed as a labourer at Grange Toll; again where or what was this? Take Care Elaine Williams

I would think that people were more afraid of common or garden rogues and thugs than the militia..... Here's a good read about a couple of those, although I wouldn't have wanted to live in this Close! http://members.fortunecity.com/gillonj/burkeandhare/ - moira Eleanor Robertson wrote: >In those days there was always fighting have you never heard of the Battle >of Bannockburn > >-----Original Message----- >From: Liz Parkinson [mailto:parkinsonliz@hotmail.com] >Sent: 21 March 2005 15:47 >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > >excuse my ignorance of Scottish hoistory - what invasion > >Liz > > > >>From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >>Reply-To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >>Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:15:59 -0000 >> >>Think of the Royal Mile as the spine of a fish. >>Building was done on either side and down the closes. >>People only lived in the High Street so they needed as many houses as >>possible that is why the houses were built so high. >>Once you get to the Canongate things change as that was out side the city >>walls. They then built houses with more space between them, but this was >>not >>popular at the time as people were afraid to live out side the gates for >>fear of the invasion mainly. >>Hope you understand this. >>Regards >>Eleanor >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] >>Sent: 21 March 2005 15:04 >>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> >>Eleanor: I had figured that much out, but what really interests me is why >>they were made in the first place, some appear to be architeckial gems and >>what prompted them to be build behind existing buildings or to have >>buildings built in front of them. >> >> Gordon >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> >>To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:56 AM >>Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >> >> >> >> >>>Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the same way >>>as >>>you came in. >>>Hope this helps >>>Regards >>>Eleanor >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] >>>Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 >>>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>>Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh >>> >>>Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first >>> >>> >>place, >> >> >>>shortage of flat land or what? >>> >>> Gordon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >

Take Care Elaine Williams

Craig, You might be interested to know that there was a Cockburn associated with the development of agriculture in Haddingtonshire, not limited to Haddington Town. Also a name found in the area. Take a look at this historical society site: http://www.prestoungrange.org/prestonpans/ Elizabeth > >Following a recent breakthrough I received a copy of a lengthy and very >interesting obituary notice of my great grandfather from 1921 (born 1843 >in Humbie, East Lothian, died in Haddington) > >http://www.siliconglen.com/genealogy/DCObit1921.gif >(quite a read, even if you aren't related!) > >And a corresponding "going away" party which was documented in the local >paper in 1909, I now know that my great Uncle Andrew Cockburn went into >business with his brother John Edington Cockburn in Canada. John E was >in Vancouver in the 1940s and subsequently died there, but I can find no >trace of the death records of Andrew Cockburn, he was born in Haddington >about 1873. Married Agnes Walker Robertson on 21st June 1901 in >Dirleton, East Lothian. Had a son David Cockburn 28th April 1902 born in >Scotland. > >Agnes Walker Robertson had at least 2 brothers >James R. Robertson, Married in 1904 Age 22 at Dunbar. Occupation >Blacksmith (journeyman),. >Usual Res: Dirleton. Spouse ROBINA M. MACKIE, Age 22. >and John Roberston >ref: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-EAST-LOTHIAN/2003-05/1053366004 > >Having so far drawn a blank for Vancouver, does anyone know of any >searchable death indexes for the whole of Canada that would be worth >trying or have access to the full ancestry.com database? Also a marriage >record for David Cockburn and an index to businesses (a joiners) >established in the 1910-1920 timeframe would be worth looking for. The >business could have been anywhere in Canada, I only know that John E >ended up in Vancouver later on. > >I also know that Andrew Cockburn was in East London, South Africa at one >point and made enough money to sent commemorative trays out to various >family members of which someone in my family has one. This was allegedly >selling soft drinks! However, he was a master joiner originally and I >assume when he was in business with his brother in Canada in 1921 that >it was joinery he was doing (unless anyone has any other info!). Current >line of enquiry is that he might have gone to Ontario but this is only >at the early investigation stage. > >Andrew was born in Haddington and trained there. He moved to Dirleton >and subsequently married there in 1901. He was 28, his spouse Agnes >Walker Robertson 26. They had a son David in 1902, born West Fenton, >Dirleton. Agnes was the daughter of John Robertson, master blacksmith >(presumably in Dirleton) and Mary Robertson MS Rodgers. > >I have so far found one branch of the family in Vancouver who were >delighted to hear from me and it would be great to put them in touch >with their relatives. > >More info on the Cockburn family I have found is here: >http://www.siliconglen.com/genealogy/family-history.html > >many thanks > > >-- >Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). SiliconGlen.com Ltd. http://SiliconGlen.com >Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994. >Scottish FAQ, wedding info, website design, stop spam and more! > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Eleanor: I had figured that much out, but what really interests me is why they were made in the first place, some appear to be architeckial gems and what prompted them to be build behind existing buildings or to have buildings built in front of them. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eleanor Robertson" <eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: RE: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > Close means a closed ending there is only one way out it is the same way > as > you came in. > Hope this helps > Regards > Eleanor > > -----Original Message----- > From: gordon crooks [mailto:glcrooks@bcpl.net] > Sent: 21 March 2005 12:21 > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MLN] The Close's of Edinburgh > > Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first place, > shortage of flat land or what? > > Gordon > > > > > >

I would guess that an"occupier" was someone who lived in the house and was known to be the resident as opposed to an "inmate" who lived there. I am guessing that an "occupier" did not pay rent as a tenant. There were many 'tied' houses in Scotland where the house went with the job, especially in the mining and agricultural fields - moira Gil & Sonia Murray wrote: >I think an "occupier" was a tenant. Maybe he was her father - or it could >be, his wife was paid to board the child? > >Happy hunting, >Sonia > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alcnwondr@aol.com [mailto:Alcnwondr@aol.com] >Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:51 AM >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [MLN] Occupier - need definition > >Mary Jane Bowman, 4 year old illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Bowman, died >at Cockpen in May of 1868. The informant signed himself as James Halliday, >"Occupier." >Can someone please tell me what that means? What is an "occupier" and might >it signify a relationship with the mother, Elizabeth Bowman? Thanks -- >Alice > > > > > > >

I would guess for safety reasons as the gates could be closed at night? Many of these "closes" give access to tenement style buildings built around an inner courtyard and lanes need only be as wide as to accomodate a horse and cart. Since many of the residents were wealthy and they chose to live in close quarters (that's bad!) I expect that the origin was caused by their desire to live inside the town wall for safety, lesser mortals would live ouside the walls. Later on the word continued in use tenement buildings which were built as cheaply as possible, - my 2p's worth, moira gordon crooks wrote: >Can anyone explain the reason for building "Close's" in the first place, shortage of flat land or what? > > Gordon > > > > >

Craig this is from Google. Canada has lots of info, you may find what you need with a bit of digging. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=canada+genealogy aggie >Hi > >Following a recent breakthrough I received a copy of a lengthy and very >interesting obituary notice of my great grandfather from 1921 (born 1843 >in Humbie, East Lothian, died in Haddington) > >http://www.siliconglen.com/genealogy/DCObit1921.gif >(quite a read, even if you aren't related!) > >And a corresponding "going away" party which was documented in the local >paper in 1909, I now know that my great Uncle Andrew Cockburn went into >business with his brother John Edington Cockburn in Canada. John E was >in Vancouver in the 1940s and subsequently died there, but I can find no >trace of the death records of Andrew Cockburn, he was born in Haddington >about 1873. Married Agnes Walker Robertson on 21st June 1901 in >Dirleton, East Lothian. Had a son David Cockburn 28th April 1902 born in >Scotland. > >Agnes Walker Robertson had at least 2 brothers >James R. Robertson, Married in 1904 Age 22 at Dunbar. Occupation >Blacksmith (journeyman),. >Usual Res: Dirleton. Spouse ROBINA M. MACKIE, Age 22. >and John Roberston >ref: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-EAST-LOTHIAN/2003-05/1053366004 > >Having so far drawn a blank for Vancouver, does anyone know of any >searchable death indexes for the whole of Canada that would be worth >trying or have access to the full ancestry.com database? Also a marriage >record for David Cockburn and an index to businesses (a joiners) >established in the 1910-1920 timeframe would be worth looking for. The >business could have been anywhere in Canada, I only know that John E >ended up in Vancouver later on. > >I also know that Andrew Cockburn was in East London, South Africa at one >point and made enough money to sent commemorative trays out to various >family members of which someone in my family has one. This was allegedly >selling soft drinks! However, he was a master joiner originally and I >assume when he was in business with his brother in Canada in 1921 that >it was joinery he was doing (unless anyone has any other info!). Current >line of enquiry is that he might have gone to Ontario but this is only >at the early investigation stage. > >Andrew was born in Haddington and trained there. He moved to Dirleton >and subsequently married there in 1901. He was 28, his spouse Agnes >Walker Robertson 26. They had a son David in 1902, born West Fenton, >Dirleton. Agnes was the daughter of John Robertson, master blacksmith >(presumably in Dirleton) and Mary Robertson MS Rodgers. > >I have so far found one branch of the family in Vancouver who were >delighted to hear from me and it would be great to put them in touch >with their relatives. > >More info on the Cockburn family I have found is here: >http://www.siliconglen.com/genealogy/family-history.html > >many thanks > > >-- >Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). SiliconGlen.com Ltd. http://SiliconGlen.com >Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994. >Scottish FAQ, wedding info, website design, stop spam and more! > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Hi Jane, Thank you for your generous offer. I really would appreciate it if you can spare the time to look this up. The family lived at #6 Pirrie's Close in March of 1871. District Cannongate, Burgh of Edinburgh, Scotland. John Atkin Trade was a Goldbeater b1841 Salford Lancashire Wife Emma b1842 Salford Son Thomas b1862 England Dau Matilda B1867 Salford Son William b1869 Salford Dau Sarah Ann born 21 March 1871 at above listed address in Scotland. Please could you also see if there are any other ATKIN families living in Pirrie's Close. I am curious to see if John ATKIN'S parents John and Mary ATKIN might be near by or some of his siblings. Best wishes Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "roger kelly" <roger.kelly1@virgin.net> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:41 AM Subject: Re: [MLN] 1871 Edinburgh census ATKIN family > Hi Mike, > > If no previous offers, I will happily look up the 1871 Pirrie's Close, in my > lunch hour. > > Best Wishes, > Jane <snip> -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/05

Here are two Canada sites http://www.collectionscanada.ca/canadiandirectories/index-e.html http://www.genealogy.gc.ca/06/06_e.html aggie >Hi > >Following a recent breakthrough I received a copy of a lengthy and very >interesting obituary notice of my great grandfather from 1921 (born 1843 >in Humbie, East Lothian, died in Haddington) > >http://www.siliconglen.com/genealogy/DCObit1921.gif >(quite a read, even if you aren't related!) > >And a corresponding "going away" party which was documented in the local >paper in 1909, I now know that my great Uncle Andrew Cockburn went into >business with his brother John Edington Cockburn in Canada. John E was >in Vancouver in the 1940s and subsequently died there, but I can find no >trace of the death records of Andrew Cockburn, he was born in Haddington >about 1873. Married Agnes Walker Robertson on 21st June 1901 in >Dirleton, East Lothian. Had a son David Cockburn 28th April 1902 born in >Scotland. > >Agnes Walker Robertson had at least 2 brothers >James R. Robertson, Married in 1904 Age 22 at Dunbar. Occupation >Blacksmith (journeyman),. >Usual Res: Dirleton. Spouse ROBINA M. MACKIE, Age 22. >and John Roberston >ref: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-EAST-LOTHIAN/2003-05/1053366004 > >Having so far drawn a blank for Vancouver, does anyone know of any >searchable death indexes for the whole of Canada that would be worth >trying or have access to the full ancestry.com database? Also a marriage >record for David Cockburn and an index to businesses (a joiners) >established in the 1910-1920 timeframe would be worth looking for. The >business could have been anywhere in Canada, I only know that John E >ended up in Vancouver later on. > >I also know that Andrew Cockburn was in East London, South Africa at one >point and made enough money to sent commemorative trays out to various >family members of which someone in my family has one. This was allegedly >selling soft drinks! However, he was a master joiner originally and I >assume when he was in business with his brother in Canada in 1921 that >it was joinery he was doing (unless anyone has any other info!). Current >line of enquiry is that he might have gone to Ontario but this is only >at the early investigation stage. > >Andrew was born in Haddington and trained there. He moved to Dirleton >and subsequently married there in 1901. He was 28, his spouse Agnes >Walker Robertson 26. They had a son David in 1902, born West Fenton, >Dirleton. Agnes was the daughter of John Robertson, master blacksmith >(presumably in Dirleton) and Mary Robertson MS Rodgers. > >I have so far found one branch of the family in Vancouver who were >delighted to hear from me and it would be great to put them in touch >with their relatives. > >More info on the Cockburn family I have found is here: >http://www.siliconglen.com/genealogy/family-history.html > >many thanks > > >-- >Craig Cockburn ("coburn"). SiliconGlen.com Ltd. http://SiliconGlen.com >Home to the first online guide to Scotland, founded 1994. >Scottish FAQ, wedding info, website design, stop spam and more! > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp