In a message dated 3/24/2005 11:15:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, eleanor.robertson@blueyonder.co.uk writes: have been lucky and found a lot of records in the old OPR's all buried in Inveresk Church burial grounds. You can also go to Brunton Hall Musselburgh (write for an appointment first) and look up all there old books, £21 for an hour. I am sort of far away to check the OPR's or Brunton Hall records. would anyone happen to know of any sites on line where I could check Death notices (besides Scotland's people)??? I seem to have come to a halt on any death info in Scotland. The FHC has great info on my family but no death records. I have seen several cemetery locations, but they seem to have mostly pictures of tombstones or are not in my location. I am looking for info on Dalkeith, Musselburgh, Newton, Inveresk, Cannongate, Cranston, Newbattle cemeteries. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, gretchen Michigan,USA

Hi Listers, In a book called The Forth Bridge, A picture History, by Sheila Mackay, it states the following in a Chapter called "The Sacrifice". Fifty seven lives were lost during the construction of the Forth Bridge. These deaths were included in the total figure of 518 men who were taken to the Edinburgh Hospital during the seven years of the bridge's construction. The fate of 461 injured men - one tenth of the full work force employed at the height of construction - is not recorded. Best Wishes for the Easter break, From, Michael in Norway. -----Original Message----- From: Elaine [mailto:macmac3@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 24. mars 2005 01:38 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Fw: [MLN] Men who died building the Forth Bridge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elaine" <macmac3@optusnet.com.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [MLN] Men who died building the Forth Bridge > I think one of my ancestors was an engineer of this bridge. I have a > picture of him and a number of journalists standing near a large > plinth at one end of the bridge. His name is W. Henderson. I have > also been told that he was awarded a MBE but have been unable to find > any information concerning that at all. Is there any information > concerning him in this book? Regards > Elaine > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Remac56585@aol.com> > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [MLN] Men who died building the Forth Bridge > > > > Hi Val > > I have a book'Bridge Across the Century' The story of the Forth Bridge. > It > > is fascinating. One section titled 'The cost of mens lives' > > states that > > the building of the bridge cost a total of 57 lives. > > It also states "The grim toll was coldly recorded in the Board of > > Trades Reports" as follows. Some of the dates have details. > > June 1887 -3 deaths > > August 1887 -7 deaths. > > November 1887 -8 deaths > > August 1888 -4 deaths > > November 1888 -6 deaths > > August 1889 -1 death > > September 1889 -1 death > > November 1889 -4 deaths > > > > An adage to the bottom of the page > > "the Hawes Inn flourishes too well for being in the middle of our works, > its > > attractions prove irresistible for a large proportion of our 3000 > > men. > The > > accident ward adjoins the pretty garden with hawthorns, and many > > dead and > > injured men have been carried there, who would have escaped had it > > not > been for > > the whisky of the Hawes Inn." > > Benjamin Baker 1887 > > > > If you would like any information regarding the deaths let me know. > > > > Regards > > Rena McKenzie > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: > > 23/03/2005 > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005 > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005

This 71 year old "Lady" married a 57 year old man - a 14 year wrong-way age disparity. Obviously, her years didn't show. In the 19th century ladies wore hats and gloves to shelter them from the sun - no tanning then! - and carried sunshades, so their skin stayed soft and young looking far longer than our skin does today. When Karenhappuch Brown married William R. J. Chapman in 1887 in Norfolk, both were listed on the certificate as "of full age." It would have been a brave minister who asked the couple's ages - the groom was 23, the bride 37. I wonder if William ever knew Cary's true age! Happy hunting, Sonia -----Original Message----- From: Helen Ulmann [mailto:hulmann@tca-online.com.au] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 4:58 PM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] The Ages of Agnes Georgina PEDDIE-Wright-Swayne- CONNELL Somehow or other, last night, I Filed this opus to Sonia (of Clutching at Straws) instead of Sending, and now, instead of continuing the clutching at straws thread, what the hell, I'll ask for help with my CONNELL mob, but this is what I meant to send. Sonia - here's another one, and of Midlothian origins at that, where the lady gets a younger man and with a vengeance. . In Melbourne in 1854, Agnes Georgina SWAYNE, a widow and a "Lady", married my widowed, 57 year old and rather rich ggggrandfather James CONNELL (b. "Newton" near Edinburgh abt.1796 according to Chelsea Pensioner papers but "Newtown" on second marriage certificate) stating that she was 47. The wedding was witnessed by her (we think) niece, Jean HILL nee YOUNG. Five years later, having inherited from James to the detriment of James' only child Mary Ann, Agnes Georgina died and was stated to be 67, the informant just happening to be niece's husband, who inherited all. A rapid ageing of 15 years in 5. The truly astounding thing to discover was that Agnes Georgina was in fact 71 when she married James. She had been christened at St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh, in 1783, daughter of James Lieutenant PEDDIE and Elizabeth YOUNG, married John WRIGHT in 1810, John SWAYNE in 1825, and came out to Australia (stated age 50 on the ship's list) with daughter Christiana in 1853. I wondered if I had missed another Agnes Georgina Peddie but the names of parents, place of birth, and number of children as given on her marriage certificate all accord with the above. Only the DOB/age is 24 years out! My cousin, a barrister, always thought there was something fishy about Agnes and the inheritance, but he didn't know that the discrepancy in age was 24 years not 15. How did she do it!!! What was going on? Did James Connell know? If anyone on the list has connections to any of the above, I would love to get in touch. To confuse things even further, there is the birth of a James Connell in Jan.1827 at Neilston, Renfrew, son of James Connell and Mary Young. In 1826, James may well have been in Scotland as he had contracted varicose veins "on the long march in Ireland" with his regiment, the 42nd, and was en route with first wife Mary SHINE of Adare Co. Limerick and daughter Mary Ann to Gibraltar where the rest of his regiment had already arrived. This may, of course, be sheer coincidence, but after unravelling the foregoing I don't know! Helen Australia.

A BIG thank you to Eileen, Alistair, Sally, Bob, Liz, Mary, Mary and Alice. You have given me a few new leads to follow up on :)) ( I hope I didnt leave anyone out! If I did it was unintentional).... I'm back off to my study of 19th century william nobles. gratefully Kylie

Nice extract. Suddenly brough back memories of when I was a student at the School of Pharmacy in the Grassmarket, just below the castle rock, up a close behind Greyfriars Churchyard, and beside the local doss house! Many a time up and down those wynds to and from the High Street. Back on topic I checked out the definition in the Scots Dictionary and came up with the following:- close, clos, late 15th - 17th century; closse late 16th - early 20th century 1. an enclosure, courtyard late 15th century, now chiefly Edinburgh. 2. specifically a farmyard late 19th century 3. an entry, passageway, alley 16th century originally Edinburgh 4. Specifically an entry to a tenement, the passage way giving access to the common stair late 19th century, chiefly South West & West Central Scotland "it's up a closie" - in a hopeless position "in the wrang closie" - in an irretrievable position, in grievous error - moira WSLIBB@aol.com wrote: >Some years ago I wrote a story for my family detailing the history of >Libberton's Wynd within the High Street of Edinburgh. > >Perhaps this extract will help to explain the meaning and the description of >the term 'Close' > >"At this point I feel that I should clarify if that is necessary the >difference between a Wynd and the other Scottish housing term “The Close”. The main >difference is that a Wynd led from one street to another and was open at bot >h ends in this case from the High Street to the Cowgate the Cowgate being a >very fashionable area of Edinburgh at this time. A Close the name coming from >the ‘French’ “Clos” meaning a narrow enclosed space was usually a private >entrance to houses only open at one end with a gate which could and usually >was locked at night. > >In 1776 ‘E. Topham’, in his book “Letters from Edinburgh”, observed that >along with other matters; > >“From the High Street you pass down by means of different alleyways, or as >they call them here Wynds and Closes, to the different parts of the Old Town. >There are many of them, and so very steep, that it requires great attention >to the feet to prevent falling. But so well accustomed are the Scots to that >position of the body required in descending these declevities that I have seen >a Scots girl run down them with great swiftness in pattens.” > >In 1790, the Town Council of the day ordered all Wynds and Closes to be >properly named. By means of proper signs and directions, this made Libberton’s >Wynd number 260 High Street, and number 74 Cowgate. In 1849 the superintendent >of streets renewed all the nameplates on the Wynds and Closes in the High >Street and the Cowgate." > >Hope this Helps > >Bill Libberton > > > > > > >

Wow!!!! This is such a great story!!! Thanks for sharing. aggie >I love that - a year younger than she was saying! > >Gil's Ggrandfather is buried in Texas; his youngest son was present at the >funeral. Seventy years later, the son finally put a tombstone on the grave. >He was promptly beseiged by indignant cousins who said no, their >great-grandmother was buried in that spot, he'd have to move that stone! He >was sure he was right, so declined. The cemetery director was caught in the >middle, and got the brunt of it from both sides, said wherever he went there >was somebody cussing him out. The squabble went on for years until Great >Uncle Henry died. Don't know if the cousins went secretly and moved the >tombstone after his death, and if so, where in the cemetery they moved it >to! > >Many years ago we bought a plot in the Biloxi cemetery. A few years after, >there was a scandal - someone who had bought a plot died, and when they >opened the grave they found an ancient coffin and human remains. The >cemetery director had been reselling old, unmarked plots and pocketing the >cash. We got our money back from the city - but who knows who was buried in >that grave we thought would be ours! > >Happy hunting, > >Sonia > >-----Original Message----- >From: AAgg435@netscape.net [mailto:AAgg435@netscape.net] >Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:41 AM >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws -- OFF TOPIC > >Hahahaha!!! This is so sweet. You reminded me of my mother. She lied about >her age. After her death I checked her date of birth, she lied so often she >forgot her age she was a year younger then she was saying. > >Headstones are also misleading. My father died a tragic death all paper work >was destroyed. The atty for his estate without research or my consent gave >the monument company the wrong year of birth. To correct a one to a O wasn't >a good move. >A funeral director told me many people have wrong dates on headstones. > >aggie > > > >>Also - Because men seem to think they are entitled to younger wives, >>women often take years off their age. My stepfather thought my mother >>was ten years younger - she performed a little sleight of hand with her >>birth cert., changing the year from 1906 to 1916, and got a passport >>and other documents based on it - when she died at 86, her doctor >>thought she was 76. One of my husband's GGgrandmothers had the >>fountain of youth. She aged 12 years over >>3 censuses - from 1850 to 1880 in the U.S., she aged twelve years in >>thirty, went from being 28 (truth) to being 40! >> >>Happy hunting, >>Sonia >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Sally Taylor [mailto:taylor.sally@comcast.net] >>Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:56 PM >>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws >> >>I don't think paying the GRO to search a pre-1855 death will be of any >>use, since there was no official death registration in Scotland prior to >1855. >> >>The 1801-1806 range for year of birth is likely acceptable. People did >>not always know exactly when they were born, and sometimes only gave >>their children an inkling of their age. Bear in mind that the >>information on the death certificate is given by whoever registered the >>death, and in many cases, Yes even in those of a child of the deceased- >>they did not always know the precise info. >> >>My Maternal Grandmother was born to James Davidson and Annie Chalmers, >>but her death certificate has her born to Alexander Davidson and Agnes >>Pollack and she was put down as 3 years younger than she would have >>actually been at death! >> >>My father- born 1920 in England, never knew his parents dates of birth >>or where they were born even. In 1960 my father applied for life >>insurance and put down his fathers age as 70, however at that time my >>grandfather was actually 75. >> >>Sally Taylor >>Boxborough MA USA >> >>For what are we but reflections of our masters- those that came before >>us and whose blood flows in our veins- the ancestors who don't wish to >>be forgotten >> >>surname interests: ADAMS, BOOKER, DAVIDSON, DONALDSON, DUCKETT, >>FREELAND, GRAY, MacARTHUR, MacGREGOR, PRIDE, SKINNER, WESTCOTT England >>and Scotland >>http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=n0055504 >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Kylie [mailto:wencheh@optusnet.com.au] >>Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:44 PM >>To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: [MLN] Clutching at straws >> >>I'm starting to think its time to throw a tanty! I thought that maybe I >>could get more clues to finding my William Noble's (Pilot in Leith) >>death by finding his wife's death certificate. Her name is Janet >>Edmonstone and on their marriage certificate it said daughter of John >>Edmonstone (Porter in >>Leith) so following that I found that she was born approx 1806. I found >>a certificate that has a Janet Noble, widow of James Noble, Pilot. She >>lived in Yardheads, Leith (which is the last area I can find my Janet >>residing in) and her father is listed as James Edmonstone. The age at >>death and the year would make her born in 1801 and to a different set >>of parents. The informant is listed as nephew and is the son of another >>of James Edmonstone's daughters. >>I have looked up marriages and cannot find a Janet Edmonstone married >>to a James Noble. >> >>It is SO so close with all the information but if I took it as gospel >>its not her. Can I assume that they got her fathers name wrong on her >>marriage certificate and her husbands wrong on her death certificate? >>There are no Johns in the family until Janet and Williams son Alexander >>had a son but John Logan Noble is named after Alexander's wifes family. >> >>I am stumped on both William AND Janets deaths. To top it off Scotlands >>People doesnt have death records before 1855, I suppose I will have to >>bite the bullet and pay a fee to the GRO for them to search for it. >> >>If anyone would like to impart genealogical wisdom on this I would be >>oh so grateful. >> >>Pulling my hair out, >>Kylie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >__________________________________________________________________ >Switch to Netscape Internet Service. >As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register > >Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > >New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web >and block those annoying pop-ups. >Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp > > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Welcome back!! I am jealous of your trip ))) so happy you have a good time. aggie >Hello Listers, >We're back from Scotland and I finally have time to get on the list again (I >returned home to mountains of work!). > >We had a marvelous time - seeing relatives and gadding about Uphall and the >surrounding areas. I was able to spend an entire day at New Register House >and it was great! A marathon experience with very helpful staff and a >comfortable way to search. After 6 hours, one of the staff did interrupt me >to say they had a tea room....but when you just have one day..... > >If I had it to do over again, I would have planned at least 3 days there at >New Register House (though I could have filled a week easily). Being able >to access records for those who died in the military, at sea (minor records) >was great. Also, it took a lot longer to work through OPRs and census >records than I had thought. > >It was very fruitful and I was excited to put an end to my name question >with respect to my great grandmother. I was able to see their headstone in >the Uphall cemetary and record the date she died (which had been recorded >incorrectly over here in the states). We also got a lovely view of the >Pentland Hills and many other great sights. > >My family members convened for a lovely luncheon at the Uphall Golf Club and >we had many a tea at home. It was a treat to see them and to have an >opportunity to talk to them about their recollections and knowledge of the >family. > >Unfortunately, my brick wall on finding the marriage of James Ross and Mary >Garden Ross in 1848 was not solved. As the switch from Roman Catholic to >Presbyterian took place around 1900, I did look in the NAS records for the >Catholic Church, but there was nothing. > >If anyone has navigated finding a Catholic marriage during that time period >and where specifically to direct these sorts of questions, I would >appreciate any tips you might have. I did get both the diocesan and general >addresses for the Catholic Church in Scotland and will write, time allowing. > >It was great to be in Scotland again....can't wait to go back! > >Allison >Tampa, FL > > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Welcome back to cloudy Florida, Allison! Just had to reply as I spent a couple of months in Uphall in 1992 close to the Golf Course and many an afternoon I hoisted my golf clubs on my back and walked along to play some golf.... Not unusual in Scotland to see youngsters climbing on board a bus with their golf clubs. Now it's my turn to hit New Register House, leaving in a couple of weeks for 6 months travel and leave Florida in your tender care <smile>. Don't mind missing those hurricanes you know. Will also spend some time in England and Norway, moira from Leesburg Allison Vidal wrote: > Hello Listers, > We're back from Scotland and I finally have time to get on the list > again (I returned home to mountains of work!). > > We had a marvelous time - seeing relatives and gadding about Uphall > and the surrounding areas. I was able to spend an entire day at New > Register House and it was great! A marathon experience with very > helpful staff and a comfortable way to search. After 6 hours, one of > the staff did interrupt me to say they had a tea room....but when you > just have one day..... > > If I had it to do over again, I would have planned at least 3 days > there at New Register House (though I could have filled a week > easily). Being able to access records for those who died in the > military, at sea (minor records) was great. Also, it took a lot > longer to work through OPRs and census records than I had thought. > > It was very fruitful and I was excited to put an end to my name > question with respect to my great grandmother. I was able to see > their headstone in the Uphall cemetary and record the date she died > (which had been recorded incorrectly over here in the states). We > also got a lovely view of the Pentland Hills and many other great sights. > > My family members convened for a lovely luncheon at the Uphall Golf > Club and we had many a tea at home. It was a treat to see them and to > have an opportunity to talk to them about their recollections and > knowledge of the family. > > Unfortunately, my brick wall on finding the marriage of James Ross and > Mary Garden Ross in 1848 was not solved. As the switch from Roman > Catholic to Presbyterian took place around 1900, I did look in the NAS > records for the Catholic Church, but there was nothing. > > If anyone has navigated finding a Catholic marriage during that time > period and where specifically to direct these sorts of questions, I > would appreciate any tips you might have. I did get both the diocesan > and general addresses for the Catholic Church in Scotland and will > write, time allowing. > > It was great to be in Scotland again....can't wait to go back! > > Allison > Tampa, FL > > > >

Hello Cameron, I saw you email relating to the indexing of the 1851 census of Edinburgh, and query as to whether Gorbals and Glasgow have also been done. I am looking for the entries of my Dingwall family. Regards ANNE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alistair Cameron" <acameron@hinet.net.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [MLN] Grant /Forsyth > > > Helen Hall wrote: > > > > I am having trouble trying to find the family of Thomas Grant and Jane or > > Jean Forsyth in Edinburgh. > > They were married at South Leith 20th Nov 1832. > > My gt grandfather John Grant was a son born in Edinburgh 1840. > > In case it helps, note that a Purewa tombstone names two > Johns Grant, died 1921 and 1973. > > IF Thomas/Jane did not emigrate then look for Jane's death > entry and then for Thomas' death. You'll thus probably win > the names of John's 45 grandparents incl grannies' maiden > surnames. > > > I would appreciate if there is someone who is tracing the family or prepared > > to look up a 1841 or 1851 census with this family mentioned . > > The surname being common it could be a tedious search unless > you know which of the Edinburgh parishes to look in. For > 1851 most of Edinburgh has been name indexed, there is a fee > for lookup unless you find a library with the Index. State > Library NSW has it but that is a very long swim from where > you are!! > > Cheers, > > ALISTAIR M. CAMERON > http://quozl.netrek.org/cameron-research/ > > PO Box 215 BUNDANOON NSW 2578 AUSTRALIA >

These things happen when the people are registering the death of someone and never knew the deceased parents so names can get all mixed up. I have found this when the mothers name was Marion and it is registered as Mary. His second wife so I would imagine she never knew his mother. I have in my family a father registering his first born and I can just imagine someone saying to him "Mother's name" and he registered the child with HIS mother's name! Hope this helps. Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: Kylie [mailto:wencheh@optusnet.com.au] Sent: 23 March 2005 21:44 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] Clutching at straws I'm starting to think its time to throw a tanty! I thought that maybe I could get more clues to finding my William Noble's (Pilot in Leith) death by finding his wife's death certificate. Her name is Janet Edmonstone and on their marriage certificate it said daughter of John Edmonstone (Porter in Leith) so following that I found that she was born approx 1806. I found a certificate that has a Janet Noble, widow of James Noble, Pilot. She lived in Yardheads, Leith (which is the last area I can find my Janet residing in) and her father is listed as James Edmonstone. The age at death and the year would make her born in 1801 and to a different set of parents. The informant is listed as nephew and is the son of another of James Edmonstone's daughters. I have looked up marriages and cannot find a Janet Edmonstone married to a James Noble. It is SO so close with all the information but if I took it as gospel its not her. Can I assume that they got her fathers name wrong on her marriage certificate and her husbands wrong on her death certificate? There are no Johns in the family until Janet and Williams son Alexander had a son but John Logan Noble is named after Alexander's wifes family. I am stumped on both William AND Janets deaths. To top it off Scotlands People doesnt have death records before 1855, I suppose I will have to bite the bullet and pay a fee to the GRO for them to search for it. If anyone would like to impart genealogical wisdom on this I would be oh so grateful. Pulling my hair out, Kylie

Thank You Alistair, I did know that sometimes you will find record of burial or death in PR's, provided you know some detail about where, when and whom. Since Kylie did not know much about her man- when and where died, and his name is somewhat common, it may prove quite a challenge. Sally Taylor Boxborough MA USA For what are we but reflections of our masters- those that came before us and whose blood flows in our veins- the ancestors who don't wish to be forgotten surname interests: ADAMS, BOOKER, DAVIDSON, DONALDSON, DUCKETT, FREELAND, GRAY, MacARTHUR, MacGREGOR, PRIDE, SKINNER, WESTCOTT England and Scotland http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=n0055504 -----Original Message----- From: Alistair Cameron [mailto:acameron@hinet.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:34 PM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MLN] Clutching at straws Sally Taylor wrote, mainly for Kylie: > > I don't think paying the GRO to search a pre-1855 death will be of any use, > since there was no official death registration in Scotland prior to 1855. That is a wee bit fatalistic [pun not intended] IF the parish where probably died, is known. Some parishes had Burial records in that period, five of the Edinburgh parishes list pre- 1855 burials for example. The records were maintained by the churches and while most of these were rather lean on details, there were some more informative. Unfortunately most Burials in the OPR and other Churches' registers are not Indexed. Reading of the microfilms [images] can be a slow chore. For Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Free, Jewish etc congregations the records are not at NRH, not available in LDS libraries but are accessed in the NAS collections in General Register House. There are probably dupes at Salt Lake City tagged as Not To Be Circulated, and (maybe) Not to be Photocopied. -- Cheers, ALISTAIR M. CAMERON http://quozl.netrek.org/cameron-research/ PO Box 215 BUNDANOON NSW 2578 AUSTRALIA

I have been lucky and found a lot of records in the old OPR's all buried in Inveresk Church burial grounds. You can also go to Brunton Hall Musselburgh (write for an appointment first) and look up all there old books, £21 for an hour. Write down all info before you go. It was worth ever penny as I found lots of my family. The gentleman in charge at the burial grounds was great as I could not find my Gt.Grandmother's grave so he marked the place for me and dug out a piece of turf so I would not miss it. Wonderful! Regards Eleanor -----Original Message----- From: Sally Taylor [mailto:taylor.sally@comcast.net] Sent: 23 March 2005 22:56 To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws I don't think paying the GRO to search a pre-1855 death will be of any use, since there was no official death registration in Scotland prior to 1855. The 1801-1806 range for year of birth is likely acceptable. People did not always know exactly when they were born, and sometimes only gave their children an inkling of their age. Bear in mind that the information on the death certificate is given by whoever registered the death, and in many cases, Yes even in those of a child of the deceased- they did not always know the precise info. My Maternal Grandmother was born to James Davidson and Annie Chalmers, but her death certificate has her born to Alexander Davidson and Agnes Pollack and she was put down as 3 years younger than she would have actually been at death! My father- born 1920 in England, never knew his parents dates of birth or where they were born even. In 1960 my father applied for life insurance and put down his fathers age as 70, however at that time my grandfather was actually 75. Sally Taylor Boxborough MA USA For what are we but reflections of our masters- those that came before us and whose blood flows in our veins- the ancestors who don't wish to be forgotten surname interests: ADAMS, BOOKER, DAVIDSON, DONALDSON, DUCKETT, FREELAND, GRAY, MacARTHUR, MacGREGOR, PRIDE, SKINNER, WESTCOTT England and Scotland http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=n0055504 -----Original Message----- From: Kylie [mailto:wencheh@optusnet.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:44 PM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [MLN] Clutching at straws I'm starting to think its time to throw a tanty! I thought that maybe I could get more clues to finding my William Noble's (Pilot in Leith) death by finding his wife's death certificate. Her name is Janet Edmonstone and on their marriage certificate it said daughter of John Edmonstone (Porter in Leith) so following that I found that she was born approx 1806. I found a certificate that has a Janet Noble, widow of James Noble, Pilot. She lived in Yardheads, Leith (which is the last area I can find my Janet residing in) and her father is listed as James Edmonstone. The age at death and the year would make her born in 1801 and to a different set of parents. The informant is listed as nephew and is the son of another of James Edmonstone's daughters. I have looked up marriages and cannot find a Janet Edmonstone married to a James Noble. It is SO so close with all the information but if I took it as gospel its not her. Can I assume that they got her fathers name wrong on her marriage certificate and her husbands wrong on her death certificate? There are no Johns in the family until Janet and Williams son Alexander had a son but John Logan Noble is named after Alexander's wifes family. I am stumped on both William AND Janets deaths. To top it off Scotlands People doesnt have death records before 1855, I suppose I will have to bite the bullet and pay a fee to the GRO for them to search for it. If anyone would like to impart genealogical wisdom on this I would be oh so grateful. Pulling my hair out, Kylie

Sonia - here's another one, and of Midlothian origins at that, where the lady gets a younger man and with a vengeance. . In Melbourne in 1854, Agnes Georgina SWAYNE, a widow, married my widowed and rather rich ggggrandfather James CONNELL (b. Newton near Edinburgh abt.1796) stating that she was 47. The wedding was witnessed by her (we think) niece, Jean HILL nee YOUNG. Five years later, having inherited from James, Agnes Georgina died and was stated to be 67, the informant just happening to be niece's husband, who inherited all. A rapid ageing of 15 years in 5. The truly astounding thing to discover was that Agnes Georgina was in fact 71 when she married James. She had been christened at St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh, in 1783, daughter of James Lieutenant PEDDIE and Elizabeth YOUNG, married John WRIGHT in 1810, John SWAYNE in 1825, and came out to Australia (stated age 50) with daughter Christiana in 1857. I wondered if I had missed another Agnes Georgina Peddie but the names of parents, place of birth, and number of children as given on her marriage certificate all accord with the above. Only the DOB/age is 24 years out! My cousin, a barrister, always thought there was something fishy about Agnes and the inheritance, but he didn't know that the discrepancy in age was 24 years not 15. How did she do it!!! What was going on? If anyone on the list has connections to any of the above, I would love to get in touch. To confuse things even further, there is the birth of a James Connell in Jan.1827 at Neilston, Renfrew, son of James Connell and Mary Young. In 1826, James may well have been in Scotland as he had contracted varicose veins "on the long march in Ireland" with his regiment, the 42nd, and was en route with first wife Mary SHINE of Adare Co. Limerick and daughter Mary Ann to Gibraltar where the rest of his regiment had already arrived. This may, of course, be sheer coincidence, but after unravelling the foregoing I don't know! Helen Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil & Sonia Murray" <happyman70@bellsouth.net> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws > Also - Because men seem to think they are entitled to younger wives, women > often take years off their age. My stepfather thought my mother was ten > years younger - she performed a little sleight of hand with her birth > cert., > changing the year from 1906 to 1916, and got a passport and other > documents > based on it - when she died at 86, her doctor thought she was 76. One of > my > husband's GGgrandmothers had the fountain of youth. She aged 12 years > over > 3 censuses - from 1850 to 1880 in the U.S., she aged twelve years in > thirty, > went from being 28 (truth) to being 40! > > Happy hunting, > Sonia > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sally Taylor [mailto:taylor.sally@comcast.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:56 PM > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws > > I don't think paying the GRO to search a pre-1855 death will be of any > use, > since there was no official death registration in Scotland prior to 1855. > > The 1801-1806 range for year of birth is likely acceptable. People did not > always know exactly when they were born, and sometimes only gave their > children an inkling of their age. Bear in mind that the information on the > death certificate is given by whoever registered the death, and in many > cases, Yes even in those of a child of the deceased- they did not always > know the precise info. > > My Maternal Grandmother was born to James Davidson and Annie Chalmers, but > her death certificate has her born to Alexander Davidson and Agnes Pollack > and she was put down as 3 years younger than she would have actually been > at > death! > > My father- born 1920 in England, never knew his parents dates of birth or > where they were born even. In 1960 my father applied for life insurance > and > put down his fathers age as 70, however at that time my grandfather was > actually 75. > > Sally Taylor > Boxborough MA USA > > For what are we but reflections of our masters- those that came before us > and whose blood flows in our veins- the ancestors who don't wish to be > forgotten > > surname interests: ADAMS, BOOKER, DAVIDSON, DONALDSON, DUCKETT, FREELAND, > GRAY, MacARTHUR, MacGREGOR, PRIDE, SKINNER, WESTCOTT England and Scotland > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=n0055504 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kylie [mailto:wencheh@optusnet.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:44 PM > To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MLN] Clutching at straws > > I'm starting to think its time to throw a tanty! I thought that maybe I > could get more clues to finding my William Noble's (Pilot in Leith) death > by > finding his wife's death certificate. Her name is Janet Edmonstone and on > their marriage certificate it said daughter of John Edmonstone (Porter in > Leith) so following that I found that she was born approx 1806. I found a > certificate that has a Janet Noble, widow of James Noble, Pilot. She lived > in Yardheads, Leith (which is the last area I can find my Janet residing > in) > and her father is listed as James Edmonstone. The age at death and the > year > would make her born in 1801 and to a different set of parents. The > informant > is listed as nephew and is the son of another of James Edmonstone's > daughters. > I have looked up marriages and cannot find a Janet Edmonstone married to a > James Noble. > > It is SO so close with all the information but if I took it as gospel its > not her. Can I assume that they got her fathers name wrong on her marriage > certificate and her husbands wrong on her death certificate? There are no > Johns in the family until Janet and Williams son Alexander had a son but > John Logan Noble is named after Alexander's wifes family. > > I am stumped on both William AND Janets deaths. To top it off Scotlands > People doesnt have death records before 1855, I suppose I will have to > bite > the bullet and pay a fee to the GRO for them to search for it. > > If anyone would like to impart genealogical wisdom on this I would be oh > so > grateful. > > Pulling my hair out, > Kylie > > > > >

Some years ago I wrote a story for my family detailing the history of Libberton's Wynd within the High Street of Edinburgh. Perhaps this extract will help to explain the meaning and the description of the term 'Close' "At this point I feel that I should clarify if that is necessary the difference between a Wynd and the other Scottish housing term “The Close”. The main difference is that a Wynd led from one street to another and was open at bot h ends in this case from the High Street to the Cowgate the Cowgate being a very fashionable area of Edinburgh at this time. A Close the name coming from the ‘French’ “Clos” meaning a narrow enclosed space was usually a private entrance to houses only open at one end with a gate which could and usually was locked at night. In 1776 ‘E. Topham’, in his book “Letters from Edinburgh”, observed that along with other matters; “From the High Street you pass down by means of different alleyways, or as they call them here Wynds and Closes, to the different parts of the Old Town. There are many of them, and so very steep, that it requires great attention to the feet to prevent falling. But so well accustomed are the Scots to that position of the body required in descending these declevities that I have seen a Scots girl run down them with great swiftness in pattens.” In 1790, the Town Council of the day ordered all Wynds and Closes to be properly named. By means of proper signs and directions, this made Libberton’s Wynd number 260 High Street, and number 74 Cowgate. In 1849 the superintendent of streets renewed all the nameplates on the Wynds and Closes in the High Street and the Cowgate." Hope this Helps Bill Libberton

... sorry if you all know this but information on deaths can also be obtained from the session clerk's accounting records where a payment is made for a mortcloth; this type of record, however, does not give extensive family relationships, moira Alistair Cameron wrote: >Sally Taylor wrote, mainly for Kylie: > > >>I don't think paying the GRO to search a pre-1855 death will be of any use, >>since there was no official death registration in Scotland prior to 1855. >> >> > >That is a wee bit fatalistic [pun not intended] IF the >parish where probably died, is known. > >Some parishes had Burial records in that period, five of the >Edinburgh parishes list pre- 1855 burials for example. The >records were maintained by the churches and while most of >these were rather lean on details, there were some more >informative. > >Unfortunately most Burials in the OPR and other Churches' >registers are not Indexed. Reading of the microfilms >[images] can be a slow chore. > >For Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Free, Jewish >etc congregations the records are not at NRH, not available >in LDS libraries but are accessed in the NAS collections in >General Register House. There are probably dupes at Salt >Lake City tagged as Not To Be Circulated, and (maybe) Not to >be Photocopied. > > >

Check out the HENDERSON Engineers at http://www.nzsghamilton.co.nz/obith.htm Bryan A Curran Hamilton, New Zealand http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~origins/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elaine" <macmac3@optusnet.com.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:38 PM Subject: Fw: [MLN] Men who died building the Forth Bridge

I love that - a year younger than she was saying! Gil's Ggrandfather is buried in Texas; his youngest son was present at the funeral. Seventy years later, the son finally put a tombstone on the grave. He was promptly beseiged by indignant cousins who said no, their great-grandmother was buried in that spot, he'd have to move that stone! He was sure he was right, so declined. The cemetery director was caught in the middle, and got the brunt of it from both sides, said wherever he went there was somebody cussing him out. The squabble went on for years until Great Uncle Henry died. Don't know if the cousins went secretly and moved the tombstone after his death, and if so, where in the cemetery they moved it to! Many years ago we bought a plot in the Biloxi cemetery. A few years after, there was a scandal - someone who had bought a plot died, and when they opened the grave they found an ancient coffin and human remains. The cemetery director had been reselling old, unmarked plots and pocketing the cash. We got our money back from the city - but who knows who was buried in that grave we thought would be ours! Happy hunting, Sonia -----Original Message----- From: AAgg435@netscape.net [mailto:AAgg435@netscape.net] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:41 AM To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws -- OFF TOPIC Hahahaha!!! This is so sweet. You reminded me of my mother. She lied about her age. After her death I checked her date of birth, she lied so often she forgot her age she was a year younger then she was saying. Headstones are also misleading. My father died a tragic death all paper work was destroyed. The atty for his estate without research or my consent gave the monument company the wrong year of birth. To correct a one to a O wasn't a good move. A funeral director told me many people have wrong dates on headstones. aggie >Also - Because men seem to think they are entitled to younger wives, >women often take years off their age. My stepfather thought my mother >was ten years younger - she performed a little sleight of hand with her >birth cert., changing the year from 1906 to 1916, and got a passport >and other documents based on it - when she died at 86, her doctor >thought she was 76. One of my husband's GGgrandmothers had the >fountain of youth. She aged 12 years over >3 censuses - from 1850 to 1880 in the U.S., she aged twelve years in >thirty, went from being 28 (truth) to being 40! > >Happy hunting, >Sonia > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sally Taylor [mailto:taylor.sally@comcast.net] >Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:56 PM >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [MLN] Clutching at straws > >I don't think paying the GRO to search a pre-1855 death will be of any >use, since there was no official death registration in Scotland prior to 1855. > >The 1801-1806 range for year of birth is likely acceptable. People did >not always know exactly when they were born, and sometimes only gave >their children an inkling of their age. Bear in mind that the >information on the death certificate is given by whoever registered the >death, and in many cases, Yes even in those of a child of the deceased- >they did not always know the precise info. > >My Maternal Grandmother was born to James Davidson and Annie Chalmers, >but her death certificate has her born to Alexander Davidson and Agnes >Pollack and she was put down as 3 years younger than she would have >actually been at death! > >My father- born 1920 in England, never knew his parents dates of birth >or where they were born even. In 1960 my father applied for life >insurance and put down his fathers age as 70, however at that time my >grandfather was actually 75. > >Sally Taylor >Boxborough MA USA > >For what are we but reflections of our masters- those that came before >us and whose blood flows in our veins- the ancestors who don't wish to >be forgotten > >surname interests: ADAMS, BOOKER, DAVIDSON, DONALDSON, DUCKETT, >FREELAND, GRAY, MacARTHUR, MacGREGOR, PRIDE, SKINNER, WESTCOTT England >and Scotland >http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=n0055504 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kylie [mailto:wencheh@optusnet.com.au] >Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:44 PM >To: MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [MLN] Clutching at straws > >I'm starting to think its time to throw a tanty! I thought that maybe I >could get more clues to finding my William Noble's (Pilot in Leith) >death by finding his wife's death certificate. Her name is Janet >Edmonstone and on their marriage certificate it said daughter of John >Edmonstone (Porter in >Leith) so following that I found that she was born approx 1806. I found >a certificate that has a Janet Noble, widow of James Noble, Pilot. She >lived in Yardheads, Leith (which is the last area I can find my Janet >residing in) and her father is listed as James Edmonstone. The age at >death and the year would make her born in 1801 and to a different set >of parents. The informant is listed as nephew and is the son of another >of James Edmonstone's daughters. >I have looked up marriages and cannot find a Janet Edmonstone married >to a James Noble. > >It is SO so close with all the information but if I took it as gospel >its not her. Can I assume that they got her fathers name wrong on her >marriage certificate and her husbands wrong on her death certificate? >There are no Johns in the family until Janet and Williams son Alexander >had a son but John Logan Noble is named after Alexander's wifes family. > >I am stumped on both William AND Janets deaths. To top it off Scotlands >People doesnt have death records before 1855, I suppose I will have to >bite the bullet and pay a fee to the GRO for them to search for it. > >If anyone would like to impart genealogical wisdom on this I would be >oh so grateful. > >Pulling my hair out, >Kylie > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

For those who do not receive the latest updates from Scotlandpeople.com here is part of their latest bulletin. Note 1871 Sct census is on-line Bob Cdn. ********* New records now available at ScotlandsPeople. ********* We are delighted to announce that in addition to the 1901, 1891 and 1881 census records, the indexes and images for the 1871 Census for Scotland are now available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.

Hello Listers, We're back from Scotland and I finally have time to get on the list again (I returned home to mountains of work!). We had a marvelous time - seeing relatives and gadding about Uphall and the surrounding areas. I was able to spend an entire day at New Register House and it was great! A marathon experience with very helpful staff and a comfortable way to search. After 6 hours, one of the staff did interrupt me to say they had a tea room....but when you just have one day..... If I had it to do over again, I would have planned at least 3 days there at New Register House (though I could have filled a week easily). Being able to access records for those who died in the military, at sea (minor records) was great. Also, it took a lot longer to work through OPRs and census records than I had thought. It was very fruitful and I was excited to put an end to my name question with respect to my great grandmother. I was able to see their headstone in the Uphall cemetary and record the date she died (which had been recorded incorrectly over here in the states). We also got a lovely view of the Pentland Hills and many other great sights. My family members convened for a lovely luncheon at the Uphall Golf Club and we had many a tea at home. It was a treat to see them and to have an opportunity to talk to them about their recollections and knowledge of the family. Unfortunately, my brick wall on finding the marriage of James Ross and Mary Garden Ross in 1848 was not solved. As the switch from Roman Catholic to Presbyterian took place around 1900, I did look in the NAS records for the Catholic Church, but there was nothing. If anyone has navigated finding a Catholic marriage during that time period and where specifically to direct these sorts of questions, I would appreciate any tips you might have. I did get both the diocesan and general addresses for the Catholic Church in Scotland and will write, time allowing. It was great to be in Scotland again....can't wait to go back! Allison Tampa, FL

----- Original Message ----- From: "Elaine" <macmac3@optusnet.com.au> To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [MLN] Men who died building the Forth Bridge > I think one of my ancestors was an engineer of this bridge. I have a > picture of him and a number of journalists standing near a large plinth at > one end of the bridge. His name is W. Henderson. I have also been told > that he was awarded a MBE but have been unable to find any information > concerning that at all. Is there any information concerning him in this > book? > Regards > Elaine > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Remac56585@aol.com> > To: <MIDLOTHIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [MLN] Men who died building the Forth Bridge > > > > Hi Val > > I have a book'Bridge Across the Century' The story of the Forth Bridge. > It > > is fascinating. One section titled 'The cost of mens lives' states that > > the building of the bridge cost a total of 57 lives. > > It also states "The grim toll was coldly recorded in the Board of Trades > > Reports" as follows. > > Some of the dates have details. > > June 1887 -3 deaths > > August 1887 -7 deaths. > > November 1887 -8 deaths > > August 1888 -4 deaths > > November 1888 -6 deaths > > August 1889 -1 death > > September 1889 -1 death > > November 1889 -4 deaths > > > > An adage to the bottom of the page > > "the Hawes Inn flourishes too well for being in the middle of our works, > its > > attractions prove irresistible for a large proportion of our 3000 men. > The > > accident ward adjoins the pretty garden with hawthorns, and many dead and > > injured men have been carried there, who would have escaped had it not > been for > > the whisky of the Hawes Inn." > > Benjamin Baker 1887 > > > > If you would like any information regarding the deaths let me know. > > > > Regards > > Rena McKenzie > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005 > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005 > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005