thanks again Nivard cheers Sheila Hi again You can cut down the risk a little by ordering the birth certificates with *no* GRO index reference By ticking the box no GRO reference on the order it will enable you to enter qualifying data I would order them stating *if the father is named Ephraim* and leave it at that If the father is so named you will get the certificate, if the father is another name they will refund the charges That way you will only get them if connected Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) the body of the message