On 09/08/2012 7:22 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> I wouldn't have thought that a bargeman has anything to do with watermen >> and lightermen who work on the Thames and have a history going back, I >> believe, to Elizabethan times. I think they were closely controlled and >> had to go through an apprenticeship > This is true, technically, and the Company of Watermen & Lightermen > restricted entry very much to sons, nephews, grandsons of old watermen. > They were essentially the taxi-men and lights van men for the main London > area. > To me, a barge carries a heavy load of goods down a canal or inland > river, delivering same to a dock or wharf, possibly within the Pool of london, > at the same time as lightermen, on their smaller, lighter boats, carried > passengers and very light goods within the London area proper. The > absolute limit was Teddington Lock, after which the river was left to the > barges. But the distinction was blurred because some lightermen made their > living from unloading quite large cargoes from ships standing off, whio could > not get into the riverbank, until the thames was dredged to have a deeper > central channel. Many a cargo got rather 'lighter' between ship and river > bank and found its way into receiving houses in Southwark. Were the lightermen becuase they had lighter, faster boats or because the lightebed the ships by alighting the cargo, ferrying it to shore? My own impression has always been the later, with the watermen as the "taxi" service. Kind regards, John Henley > However, one of the popular songs of the C19 was > I'm Lighterman Tom, from Twickenham town > They call me the jolly bargee > From Whitechapel down to Teddington town > No feller more happy than me. > I've followed the river, the jolly old river > Since I was a child of nine.... > And the Royal barge, as seen in the recent pagenatry, was really a lighter, > but a larger, heavier one than the norm.# > > The lightermen were the speed merchants, and dealt dailydirectly with the > public, whereas barges (or narrow boats, depending) were chartered by > wharfingers who go cargoes for them. > And although the owner/man in charge of a barge might call himself a > captain, or master, and have a mate and maybe a boy, there is no way he > would be known as a master mariner, for their were sea-going men with > control of ships, not barges, in charge of a whole crew of men. > > EVE > >> I would imagine that watermen and lightermen would consider themselves >> to be superior to bargemen and would not want to be described as a >> bargeman in the census. >> >> Ron >> >> >> On 09/08/2012 15:13, Jenny De Angelis wrote: >>> I think you might find that a bargeman would be called a Waterman or >>> Lighterman and they would have passed through an apprenticeship to become a >>> Waterman or Lighterman. Sunbury in Middlesex would be Sunbury on Thames, >>> meaning that Sunbury is beside the River Thames. LIghtermen worked on the >>> river Thames taking goods from the ships in the London docks etc., along the >>> river to deliver where ever those goods were required. >>> >>> A lighterman, or bargeman as you have it noted, is a very different thing to >>> a Master mariner. A Master mariner would also have to learn his craft but >>> by sailing on various sea going ships until he had gained enough experience >>> to then sit the exam which if he passed he would gain his Master Mariners >>> Certificate. He would then be able to sign on for voyages either as the >>> Master, or captain, or at times he might sign on as 1st. Mate, also called >>> just Mate, under the Master. If the master was resting or fell ill then the >>> Mate would take over command of the ship, having the same qualification as >>> the Master. >>> This is what my Gt. Grandfather, a Master Mariner, did throughout the year >>> 1881-1882, one time he sailed as Mate another as Master on voyages on board >>> the same vessel during that year. >>> >>> If you have a Master Mariner to research then the Mariners site, and the >>> linked Mariners mailing list, a rootsweb list, will be of help to you. >>> http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ >>> >>> My husband's Gt. grandfather was a Lighterman on the river Thames and I have >>> obtained copies for when he was singed to a qualified Lighterman as an >>> apprentice, his "Apprenticeship Binding". >>> >>> This page of the Parish Register site below will give you links to further >>> information on tracing Watermen and Lightermen. This site offers a research >>> service for a fee and helped me get the copies of the Apprentice binding >>> that I mentioned above. >>> http://www.parishregister.com/aboutstp.html >>> >>> I hope something in the above gives you something to work on. >>> >>> Regards >>> Jenny DeAngelis >>> >>> >>> << Hello,My mysterious gt gt Grandfather Henry William DUNWOODY was baptised >>> in Little Marlow in 1812, the son of John, (transcribed as William, but I >>> have seen the original and it's Jno), and Sarah. He then disappears from >>> view to reappear in the North West in 1851. On the censuses, he lists his >>> birthplace as Hedsor, then Marlow and then Sunbury in Middlesex. This >>> coupled with his stating his father's occupation as Master Mariner makes me >>> wonder if his father was a bargeman. Dunwoody is a very unusual surname in >>> the South of England and I have found a family in Wooburn, (very close to >>> both Marlow and Hedsor) who may be related, but I cannot find a definate >>> link to my Henry.On the 1841 census in Henley is a family of WOODEYS who >>> have the middle name Dunn, (Henry Dunn WOODEY shows up repeatedly). The >>> father Thomas is a bargeman. It may be coincidence, but leads are so thin >>> with this ancestor that I would like to ask the board if they have info on >>> bargemen in the South of England or Woodeys, Dunwoodys and all its >>> variants.RegardsDiane >> >>> >>>