I wouldn't have thought that a bargeman has anything to do with watermen and lightermen who work on the Thames and have a history going back, I believe, to Elizabethan times. I think they were closely controlled and had to go through an apprenticeship before being able to work on their own. I think a bargeman would be someone who runs a barge on a canal and probably carried on the work that his father had been doing. I would imagine that watermen and lightermen would consider themselves to be superior to bargemen and would not want to be described as a bargeman in the census. Ron On 09/08/2012 15:13, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > > I think you might find that a bargeman would be called a Waterman or > Lighterman and they would have passed through an apprenticeship to become a > Waterman or Lighterman. Sunbury in Middlesex would be Sunbury on Thames, > meaning that Sunbury is beside the River Thames. LIghtermen worked on the > river Thames taking goods from the ships in the London docks etc., along the > river to deliver where ever those goods were required. > > A lighterman, or bargeman as you have it noted, is a very different thing to > a Master mariner. A Master mariner would also have to learn his craft but > by sailing on various sea going ships until he had gained enough experience > to then sit the exam which if he passed he would gain his Master Mariners > Certificate. He would then be able to sign on for voyages either as the > Master, or captain, or at times he might sign on as 1st. Mate, also called > just Mate, under the Master. If the master was resting or fell ill then the > Mate would take over command of the ship, having the same qualification as > the Master. > This is what my Gt. Grandfather, a Master Mariner, did throughout the year > 1881-1882, one time he sailed as Mate another as Master on voyages on board > the same vessel during that year. > > If you have a Master Mariner to research then the Mariners site, and the > linked Mariners mailing list, a rootsweb list, will be of help to you. > http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ > > My husband's Gt. grandfather was a Lighterman on the river Thames and I have > obtained copies for when he was singed to a qualified Lighterman as an > apprentice, his "Apprenticeship Binding". > > This page of the Parish Register site below will give you links to further > information on tracing Watermen and Lightermen. This site offers a research > service for a fee and helped me get the copies of the Apprentice binding > that I mentioned above. > http://www.parishregister.com/aboutstp.html > > I hope something in the above gives you something to work on. > > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis > > > << Hello,My mysterious gt gt Grandfather Henry William DUNWOODY was baptised > in Little Marlow in 1812, the son of John, (transcribed as William, but I > have seen the original and it's Jno), and Sarah. He then disappears from > view to reappear in the North West in 1851. On the censuses, he lists his > birthplace as Hedsor, then Marlow and then Sunbury in Middlesex. This > coupled with his stating his father's occupation as Master Mariner makes me > wonder if his father was a bargeman. Dunwoody is a very unusual surname in > the South of England and I have found a family in Wooburn, (very close to > both Marlow and Hedsor) who may be related, but I cannot find a definate > link to my Henry.On the 1841 census in Henley is a family of WOODEYS who > have the middle name Dunn, (Henry Dunn WOODEY shows up repeatedly). The > father Thomas is a bargeman. It may be coincidence, but leads are so thin > with this ancestor that I would like to ask the board if they have info on > bargemen in the South of England or Woodeys, Dunwoodys and all its > variants.RegardsDiane >> > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> I wouldn't have thought that a bargeman has anything to do with watermen > and lightermen who work on the Thames and have a history going back, I > believe, to Elizabethan times. I think they were closely controlled and > had to go through an apprenticeship This is true, technically, and the Company of Watermen & Lightermen restricted entry very much to sons, nephews, grandsons of old watermen. They were essentially the taxi-men and lights van men for the main London area. To me, a barge carries a heavy load of goods down a canal or inland river, delivering same to a dock or wharf, possibly within the Pool of london, at the same time as lightermen, on their smaller, lighter boats, carried passengers and very light goods within the London area proper. The absolute limit was Teddington Lock, after which the river was left to the barges. But the distinction was blurred because some lightermen made their living from unloading quite large cargoes from ships standing off, whio could not get into the riverbank, until the thames was dredged to have a deeper central channel. Many a cargo got rather 'lighter' between ship and river bank and found its way into receiving houses in Southwark. However, one of the popular songs of the C19 was I'm Lighterman Tom, from Twickenham town They call me the jolly bargee From Whitechapel down to Teddington town No feller more happy than me. I've followed the river, the jolly old river Since I was a child of nine.... And the Royal barge, as seen in the recent pagenatry, was really a lighter, but a larger, heavier one than the norm.# The lightermen were the speed merchants, and dealt dailydirectly with the public, whereas barges (or narrow boats, depending) were chartered by wharfingers who go cargoes for them. And although the owner/man in charge of a barge might call himself a captain, or master, and have a mate and maybe a boy, there is no way he would be known as a master mariner, for their were sea-going men with control of ships, not barges, in charge of a whole crew of men. EVE > > I would imagine that watermen and lightermen would consider themselves > to be superior to bargemen and would not want to be described as a > bargeman in the census. > > Ron > > > On 09/08/2012 15:13, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > > > > I think you might find that a bargeman would be called a Waterman or > > Lighterman and they would have passed through an apprenticeship to become a > > Waterman or Lighterman. Sunbury in Middlesex would be Sunbury on Thames, > > meaning that Sunbury is beside the River Thames. LIghtermen worked on the > > river Thames taking goods from the ships in the London docks etc., along the > > river to deliver where ever those goods were required. > > > > A lighterman, or bargeman as you have it noted, is a very different thing to > > a Master mariner. A Master mariner would also have to learn his craft but > > by sailing on various sea going ships until he had gained enough experience > > to then sit the exam which if he passed he would gain his Master Mariners > > Certificate. He would then be able to sign on for voyages either as the > > Master, or captain, or at times he might sign on as 1st. Mate, also called > > just Mate, under the Master. If the master was resting or fell ill then the > > Mate would take over command of the ship, having the same qualification as > > the Master. > > This is what my Gt. Grandfather, a Master Mariner, did throughout the year > > 1881-1882, one time he sailed as Mate another as Master on voyages on board > > the same vessel during that year. > > > > If you have a Master Mariner to research then the Mariners site, and the > > linked Mariners mailing list, a rootsweb list, will be of help to you. > > http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ > > > > My husband's Gt. grandfather was a Lighterman on the river Thames and I have > > obtained copies for when he was singed to a qualified Lighterman as an > > apprentice, his "Apprenticeship Binding". > > > > This page of the Parish Register site below will give you links to further > > information on tracing Watermen and Lightermen. This site offers a research > > service for a fee and helped me get the copies of the Apprentice binding > > that I mentioned above. > > http://www.parishregister.com/aboutstp.html > > > > I hope something in the above gives you something to work on. > > > > Regards > > Jenny DeAngelis > > > > > > << Hello,My mysterious gt gt Grandfather Henry William DUNWOODY was baptised > > in Little Marlow in 1812, the son of John, (transcribed as William, but I > > have seen the original and it's Jno), and Sarah. He then disappears from > > view to reappear in the North West in 1851. On the censuses, he lists his > > birthplace as Hedsor, then Marlow and then Sunbury in Middlesex. This > > coupled with his stating his father's occupation as Master Mariner makes me > > wonder if his father was a bargeman. Dunwoody is a very unusual surname in > > the South of England and I have found a family in Wooburn, (very close to > > both Marlow and Hedsor) who may be related, but I cannot find a definate > > link to my Henry.On the 1841 census in Henley is a family of WOODEYS who > > have the middle name Dunn, (Henry Dunn WOODEY shows up repeatedly). The > > father Thomas is a bargeman. It may be coincidence, but leads are so thin > > with this ancestor that I would like to ask the board if they have info on > > bargemen in the South of England or Woodeys, Dunwoodys and all its > > variants.RegardsDiane >> > > > > ************************************** > > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Ron, I agree a lighterman or waterman might consider himself a cut above a Bargeman, or more correctly a Bargee. Wikipedia says the following about Lightermen, though I know this site is only as good as the knowledge of the person who added the information to the site and there are errors contained within the site. "Lightermen were workers who transferred goods between Ships and quays, aboard flat-bottomed barges called Lighters in the Port of London" There is a lot more information about lightermen the same page as the link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightermen As to the man being noted as a bargeman in the census, perhaps he himself didn't fill out the schedule for his household. Maybe someone else filling it out on his behalf knew he worked on a barge, lighter, and made the mistake of giving him the title of Bargeman instead of Lighterman, or Waterman. He might not have seen the filled out schedule, or might not have been able to read it, to know that the wrong title had been given to him. But he could just as easily have been a bargeman rather than a lighterman, which his son appears to have become later on. But as they lived by the Thames and lived on dry land I would have thought that the man would work on the River Thames rather than on a canal but I could be wrong. Lighterman records would need looking at to see if any apprentice binding can be found there for both father and son. A Bargee usually worked the canals on their barges on which they and their families lived transporting goods from one part of the country to another. The two lightermen in my husband's family lived with their families on dry land in the Middlesex area but worked on the River Thames. I remember as a child seeing the barges, that would be Lighters, on the river Thames taking, mostly, Rubbish out of London to be dealt with somewhere else, I don't know where they took it all to. Watermen, according to the above site, transported passengers. At the bottom of the above page are details of a book about lightermen written by a past lighterman. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<I wouldn't have thought that a bargeman has anything to do with watermen and lightermen who work on the Thames and have a history going back, I believe, to Elizabethan times. I think they were closely controlled and had to go through an apprenticeship before being able to work on their own. I think a bargeman would be someone who runs a barge on a canal and probably carried on the work that his father had been doing. I would imagine that watermen and lightermen would consider themselves to be superior to bargemen and would not want to be described as a bargeman in the census.>>

> > A Bargee usually worked the canals on their barges on which they and their > families lived transporting goods from one part of the country to another. This is true for most of the later barge/narrow boat men. However, certainly pre 1800, in the Marlow area, when barge transport was the norm for bulky, fragile, heavy goods, the bargemen travlled alone. From Marlow, Wooburn and district, they were frequently delivering paper from the mills, on which a tax was paid, and this was rec laimed when the barge sank or sopmehow the paper fell overboard. This is something which occurs often enou8gh in Quarter sessions records. The bargemen had quite a reputation for in itiating or joining happily in punch ups in the local pubs, when home, and - again from Quarter sessions - their wives can be shown tyo have stayed home, since they continued the started battles or initiated their own pub ri9ots, when their husbands were away. I think someone has mentioned that a Thomas Dunwoody was a bargeman in Wooburn (just down river from Marlow) in 1798, and a John Dunwoodey was a labourer there also. I will check the Wooburn registers shortly. Although the name is a variant of Dinwiddie, which is Scottish, we did acquire a small groupd of Scots in the 1690s, when the Scots Guards disbanded in Bucks and some of them chose not to walk all the way home. An alternative way may have been through the barges, as an emigrant scot man have taken a job on one in London (full of 'Scotchmen' who had taken the road which led them to England, like their compatriot, James Boswell..) >taking mostly, Rubbish out of London to be dealt with somewhere else, There was a profitable trade on the Grand Junction canal of shipping 'nightsoil' collected in London for use as fertiliser on farm fields. I was told an unsuitable joke about an actor, down on his luck, travelling by one of those barges, who accepted the smell, but (when the bargeowner declared his cargo as 'three tons of (ordure) and an actor) objected to his position on the billing. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

Thanks again for this info. My Henry William Dunwoody appeared in Liverpool in the 1851 census with his Irish wife, Catherine Topham. From his baptism in little Marlow in 1812 to this census, I have no record of him, but I suspect that he may have been in the army. I need to go to Kew to search the army records. Maybe I will find something about him there.There are a cluster of Dunwoody births, marriages and deaths in Wooburn from c1750 - 1805 but then they die out, (or leave). I have 2 Thomas Dunwoody's born 1747 and 1778, so the Thomas Dunn Woodey in Henley c 1800 obviously interests me.I reallt need to go and see the quarter sessions. They sound like entertaining reading!RegardsDiane > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:39:48 +0100 > Subject: Re: [MDX] dunwoody or Dunn Woodey, bargemen > > > > > A Bargee usually worked the canals on their barges on which they and their > > families lived transporting goods from one part of the country to another. > > This is true for most of the later barge/narrow boat men. However, certainly > pre 1800, in the Marlow area, when barge transport was the norm for bulky, > fragile, heavy goods, the bargemen travlled alone. From Marlow, Wooburn > and district, they were frequently delivering paper from the mills, on which a > tax was paid, and this was rec laimed when the barge sank or sopmehow the > paper fell overboard. This is something which occurs often enou8gh in > Quarter sessions records. > The bargemen had quite a reputation for in itiating or joining happily in > punch ups in the local pubs, when home, and - again from Quarter sessions > - their wives can be shown tyo have stayed home, since they continued the > started battles or initiated their own pub ri9ots, when their husbands were > away. > I think someone has mentioned that a Thomas Dunwoody was a bargeman > in Wooburn (just down river from Marlow) in 1798, and a John Dunwoodey > was a labourer there also. I will check the Wooburn registers shortly. > Although the name is a variant of Dinwiddie, which is Scottish, we did > acquire a small groupd of Scots in the 1690s, when the Scots Guards > disbanded in Bucks and some of them chose not to walk all the way home. > An alternative way may have been through the barges, as an emigrant scot > man have taken a job on one in London (full of 'Scotchmen' who had taken > the road which led them to England, like their compatriot, James Boswell..) > > >taking mostly, Rubbish out of London to be dealt with somewhere else, > > > There was a profitable trade on the Grand Junction canal of shipping > 'nightsoil' collected in London for use as fertiliser on farm fields. > I was told an unsuitable joke about an actor, down on his luck, travelling by > one of those barges, who accepted the smell, but (when the bargeowner > declared his cargo as 'three tons of (ordure) and an actor) objected to his > position on the billing. > EVE > > Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians > Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message