I am sure seine will correct me but I thought that a "ss" in a word was written to look like "sf". Paul in Sydney Sent from the telephone. > On 30 Dec 2014, at 5:05 am, Jenny De Angelis via <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eve, > > thankyou very much for your message. You have given me food for thought in > what you say. I had not considered George Frederick being German, Swiss of > Alsatian. I have had the family tale that there was someone French in the > family all the time, this tale comes from more than one family member. So > far George Fred Michshel/l is the only person born Foreign that has appeared > in my research of my husband's family. > > All of the baptism entries for the Michshel children that I have found to > date show their father as a modeller in Plaster or as a Plasterer. George's > death certificate shows him to have been a plasterer. > > To have named his son Napoleon must surely point to George Frederick being a > supporter of Napoleon Bonaparte during the revolution in France. Whether of > not he was a soldier in the French army during the Napoleonic wars, he must > have been a supporter. > > Hermesfred, or Hemasfred, either spelling of the name is how the name is > spelt for this girl in the baptism register, censuses and on her marriage > entry in the register, she signed her name herself and did not make her mark > in the marriage register, though her signature is not very clear it does > look like Hermesfred/Hermasfred, there is definitely a small letter "f" in > the middle of the name, it is the Es/As part that is never clear in the > written name. Once married she is shown in the 1891 census by the initial > H F, perhaps the enumerator could only read these two letters of the name or > the filler in of the schedule couldn't spell her full name, the rest of the > family are shown by their full names. > > It is a very odd name, I know, and I have been puzzling about it for the > past 10-15 years. > > I shall go on puzzling about Hermesfred for ever more. > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis > > <<George Frederick doesn't sound French (even adapted French).If from > Georg Friedrich (like Handel) could be German or Swiss. > The Michsel might be a warped Michelle, Mischel. > Hermes fred for a female??? Could this be a misreading of Hermentrud > (usually anglicised as Ermentrude. > Again, this points to a possible German or Swiss origin, or maybe Alsatian. > Origins as diverse as formerly in the German legion (ex Hanoverian > estates), or a French waiter? > You should get an occupation for any baptisms 1813 onwards. , >> > > . > ************************************** > Send your List messages using *PLAIN TEXT* and always *DELETE* all previous messages EXCEPT the one to which you are replying. > > *MEANINGFUL Subject Lines* ie name or topic, date and place with surnames only in CAPS. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > > The List Archive, containing all messages posted, can be found at: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=middlesex_county_uk > > . > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Depends how far back it was - this would have died out generally about mid nineteenth century, although we have diaries of my gt. grandfather who was born in 1820 and he uses the long "s" still in 1889. It was actually a long "s" - not an "f" at all, but an extra letter thus - ƒ. If I remember rightly, if it extended below the line it was an "s" and if the letter finished at the line it was an "f". It was used mainly in a double "s" as the second letter. Jeanette -----Original Message----- From: Ironside via Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:13 AM To: Jenny De Angelis ; middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Home Fires,surnames MICHSHEL/L+ vars. and VINCENT London/Middx. I am sure seine will correct me but I thought that a "ss" in a word was written to look like "sf". Paul in Sydney Sent from the telephone. > On 30 Dec 2014, at 5:05 am, Jenny De Angelis via > <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eve, > > thankyou very much for your message. You have given me food for thought > in > what you say. I had not considered George Frederick being German, Swiss > of > Alsatian. I have had the family tale that there was someone French in the > family all the time, this tale comes from more than one family member. So > far George Fred Michshel/l is the only person born Foreign that has > appeared > in my research of my husband's family. > > All of the baptism entries for the Michshel children that I have found to > date show their father as a modeller in Plaster or as a Plasterer. > George's > death certificate shows him to have been a plasterer. > > To have named his son Napoleon must surely point to George Frederick being > a > supporter of Napoleon Bonaparte during the revolution in France. Whether > of > not he was a soldier in the French army during the Napoleonic wars, he > must > have been a supporter. > > Hermesfred, or Hemasfred, either spelling of the name is how the name is > spelt for this girl in the baptism register, censuses and on her marriage > entry in the register, she signed her name herself and did not make her > mark > in the marriage register, though her signature is not very clear it does > look like Hermesfred/Hermasfred, there is definitely a small letter "f" > in > the middle of the name, it is the Es/As part that is never clear in the > written name. Once married she is shown in the 1891 census by the > initial > H F, perhaps the enumerator could only read these two letters of the name > or > the filler in of the schedule couldn't spell her full name, the rest of > the > family are shown by their full names. > > It is a very odd name, I know, and I have been puzzling about it for the > past 10-15 years. > > I shall go on puzzling about Hermesfred for ever more. > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis > > <<George Frederick doesn't sound French (even adapted French).If from > Georg Friedrich (like Handel) could be German or Swiss. > The Michsel might be a warped Michelle, Mischel. > Hermes fred for a female??? Could this be a misreading of Hermentrud > (usually anglicised as Ermentrude. > Again, this points to a possible German or Swiss origin, or maybe > Alsatian. > Origins as diverse as formerly in the German legion (ex Hanoverian > estates), or a French waiter? > You should get an occupation for any baptisms 1813 onwards. , >> > > . > ************************************** > Send your List messages using *PLAIN TEXT* and always *DELETE* all > previous messages EXCEPT the one to which you are replying. > > *MEANINGFUL Subject Lines* ie name or topic, date and place with surnames > only in CAPS. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > > The List Archive, containing all messages posted, can be found at: > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=middlesex_county_uk > > . > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message . ************************************** Send your List messages using *PLAIN TEXT* and always *DELETE* all previous messages EXCEPT the one to which you are replying. *MEANINGFUL Subject Lines* ie name or topic, date and place with surnames only in CAPS. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com The List Archive, containing all messages posted, can be found at: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=middlesex_county_uk . ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Paul, You are right, the SS in old records was often written as fs or sf, I can't recall offhand which way round the letters are placed in a word. The letter f being quite long and going down almost onto the line below. But I don't think this is the case with the name Hermesfred. The 1911 census entry for her household, where she is the head as a widow, she has written her name and also her signature as Hermesfred definitely the letter F. Looking again just now at the census entries I have for Hermesfred. I see that in the 1901 census under her married name of Chapman, she is a widow and the head of house with the first name of Elizabeth, I am sure this is Hermesfred because she has two of her daughters with her. All the women are of the right age and birth places compared to earlier records. As I wrote earlier, in the 1851 census at Fulham workhouse, there is an Elizabeth Meshel of the right age and I am sure this is Hermesfred. I have never found an Elizabeth Meshel/Michshel in the censuses in between 1851 and 1901. Nor have I found a baptism for such a person online, as I have the baptisms for all of George Fred's Michshel and wife Charlotte's children, including Hermesfred. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<I am sure seine will correct me but I thought that a "ss" in a word was written to look like "sf". Paul in Sydney>>