nusual amount of time to collect and write up a report of info > On 10/06/2014 23:03, Nivard Ovington wrote: > > Its a good one isn't it > > > > Well I like a challenge but this has me foxed > > > > all my children born alive by my husband 4 deceased (been or born?) in > > ???? ?????? > > It's very difficult to separate the last two words. On the next line > Caroline has put "Means". Another hand has added "Pte". I'm > wondering if those two words are somehow connected with that. Her > husband had been a music printer, like his father The 1881 census shows John Holman Joyce 42 Music litho printer b Lincolns Inn Caroline 44 miscellaneous dealwer b Lincolns Inn Elizabeth 28 b Southwar Charles 11 b St Pancras Mary Agnes 5 b Paddington In 1901 John Joyce 62 and Caroline 64 have forgotten where born other than London in 1891 Charles (Joseph) is staying with an uncle and aunt, Arthur Jennings 60, commercial traveller, Marie 52 b bromley (in bromley) in 1894 Charles joseph Joyce son of John married Jessie Selina Pitt d Henry john on 4 Nov, Brompley Church In 1911 Charles Joyce 41, cashier at a horse repository! born 'Bromley' Jessie aged 40 married 16 yrs 6 chn, all living Henry 15 junior clerk newspaper office b Bromley Jessie 14 b Poplar Hilda 12m b S Bromley Katherine 9, Winifred 7 b Limehouse Doris 7 months b Mile end > so if Mary agnes survived too, they must have had more than 5. > Also Col 14 where she has "London/Parish not known)" she seems to have > written over a (possibly) pencilled answer. It looks as though she > needed help completing the schedule. > > > Very lightly in pencil then perhaps rubbed out it states married 47 > > years, total children born alive = 4 , one still living, five children > > died (which does not make a lot of sense) I suspect the numbers are in > > the wrong boxes, and should be 5 - 1 - 4 > > 47 years would be right but goodness knows how you spotted that! I > can barely see it even knowing it's there! > > I thought the number of children might still be awry but having worked > through what you found and compared with what I found I think that's > right, although I have a total of six children: 5 born, 4 lost, 1 > surviving with John Holman JOYCE, and 1 surviving with John BEALE. > > > In an effort to try and find a clue I looked through the census etc > > After I posted I carried on digging, so I can concur and/or add to > what you've found. It helps to know someone else has found the same > things I did or more. It means I'm on the right track. > > > Some notes below > > > > Marriages Sep 1864 > > Joyce John Holman St Martin 1a 730 > > Beale Caroline Margaret St Martin 1a 730 > > Caroline's maiden name was HAWKESWORTH. She'd married John BEALE in > the Sept qtr of 1862 but he died the following qtr. She then married > John JOYCE on 11 July 1864, St Martins in the Fields. FamilySearch > has the marriage and it gives Caroline's surname as HAWKESWORTH or > BEALE. I don't know if she had any children with John BEALE but > there's an intriguing birth and death of a John Hawkesworth BEALE in > 1860. It'll have to wait though because the BEALEs aren't really > family but it may be two brothers marrying two sisters who may or may > not be connected.. > > > Holman Langston JOYCE bap 22 Jun 1965 St Mary Lambeth > > (born Holman Langstow?, died 1868 Westminster) > > He was born 12 June 1865. I think his middle name should be Langston > and an open 'n' has been mistranscribed. I haven't got to finding out > where it came from. Holman was his grandmother's maiden name. > > > Elizabeth b1863 Southwark (9 in 1871 census born Old Kent Road) > > I've picked her up in the 1881 census but I think she was Caroline's > daughter by John BEALE. How did you manage to find her in 1871? I've > tried several times and been unsuccessful every time. > > > William H (or N) (3 in 1871 born Pimlico) > > (reg as William Henry Poplar 1868) > > Possibly married Sarah Ann BROWN in 1911 RG14 1684 RD22 SD2 ED7 SN89 > > (Ada, WIlliam & Elsie childers) > > > > *marriage now discounted given 1911, one child living = Mary Agnes ERSSER* > > This is where we differ. > > FamilySearch has William Alfred bapt 19 Nov 1868 in St Mary Soho to > John and Caroline, died June qtr 1872 St Pancras RD > > There's also a Lilian Maud bapt 22 Oct 1874 in St Mary Soho, again to > John and Caroline, died June qtr 1875 St Pancras RD > > > Charles 1870 St Pancras Middlesex (4 mths in 1871 b MDX St Pancras) > > (born Charles Vernon 1870) > > Joined Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders 1889 previously 5th Btn Royal > > Fusiliers > > Died 4th Aug 1890 (reg Farnham Surrey) > > NOK John H JOYCE 3 Endell St Long Acre London MDX > > Charles Vernon was bapt 5 Dec 1870 at St Mary Soho to John Holman and > Caroline Mary > > I found his death but hadn't found he was a soldier. Another place to > look. > > > Mary Agnes 1876 St Anne Middlesex > > (costumiers apprentice 1891 in Sydenham RG12 523 68 39) > > Married Joseph Thomas ERSSER Lambeth 1895 > > I picked her up on the 1881 census but I haven't been able to find any > of the family in 1891 > > > > ========== > > > > Thought this may be above William H but now discounted > > > > 1901 > > William H JOYCE 33 railway engine driver Old Ford MDX > > Sarah A JOYCE 30 St George East MDX > > Ada C E 9 (Ada Caroline E b1892 reg Poplar) > > William C H (William Charles Henry b1893 reg Poplar) > > Elsie M 1 (Elsie May b1899 reg Poplar) > > RG13/345 > > I'll still keep a note of him as he may yet be connected, albeit not > to John Holman JOYCE. > > > Carolines administration with will is in 1913, listing Mary Agnes ERSSER > > (wife of Joseph Thomas ERSSER) > > Thank you for that one. Caroline left a tidy sum. I wonder where it > came from.her husband, John Holman, was a printer but doesn't seem to > have left a will. > > > So she is the surviving child > > > > But what that last wording in 1911 might be is still a mystery > > > > 1911 for ERSSER (ESSER on Ancestry) > > 1871 JOYCE family > > > > Saved if required > > Thank you :) > > -- > Connie > http://oursalmons.wordpress.com/ > . > ************************************** > Send your List messages using *PLAIN TEXT* and always *DELETE* superfluous old messages in replies. Only include the one to which you are replying. > > *MEANINGFUL Subject Lines* ie who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > > The archives can be found at: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=middlesex_county_uk > > . > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

On 12/06/2014 15:49, eve@varneys.org.uk wrote: > The 1881 census shows > John Holman Joyce 42 Music litho printer b Lincolns Inn > Caroline 44 miscellaneous dealwer b Lincolns Inn > Elizabeth 28 b Southwar > Charles 11 b St Pancras > Mary Agnes 5 b Paddington Yes, that's them. Thank you. Elizabeth was born Caroline Elizabeth BEALE. > In 1901 John Joyce 62 and Caroline 64 have forgotten where born other > than London Better than nothing at all :) > in 1891 Charles (Joseph) is staying with an uncle and aunt, Arthur Jennings > 60, commercial traveller, Marie 52 b bromley (in bromley) Unfortunately this isn't John and Caroline's son. Their son, Charles, was born Charles Vernon and he died in 1890 in the Farnham RD -- Connie http://oursalmons.wordpress.com/