Its a good one isn't it Well I like a challenge but this has me foxed all my children born alive by my husband 4 deceased (been or born?) in ???? ?????? Very lightly in pencil then perhaps rubbed out it states married 47 years, total children born alive = 4 , one still living, five children died (which does not make a lot of sense) I suspect the numbers are in the wrong boxes, and should be 5 - 1 - 4 In an effort to try and find a clue I looked through the census etc Some notes below Marriages Sep 1864 Joyce John Holman St Martin 1a 730 Beale Caroline Margaret St Martin 1a 730 Holman Langston JOYCE bap 22 Jun 1965 St Mary Lambeth (born Holman Langstow?, died 1868 Westminster) Elizabeth b1863 Southwark (9 in 1871 census born Old Kent Road) William H (or N) (3 in 1871 born Pimlico) (reg as William Henry Poplar 1868) Possibly married Sarah Ann BROWN in 1911 RG14 1684 RD22 SD2 ED7 SN89 (Ada, WIlliam & Elsie childers) *marriage now discounted given 1911, one child living = Mary Agnes ERSSER* Charles 1870 St Pancras Middlesex (4 mths in 1871 b MDX St Pancras) (born Charles Vernon 1870) Joined Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders 1889 previously 5th Btn Royal Fusiliers Died 4th Aug 1890 (reg Farnham Surrey) NOK John H JOYCE 3 Endell St Long Acre London MDX Mary Agnes 1876 St Anne Middlesex (costumiers apprentice 1891 in Sydenham RG12 523 68 39) Married Joseph Thomas ERSSER Lambeth 1895 ========== Thought this may be above William H but now discounted 1901 William H JOYCE 33 railway engine driver Old Ford MDX Sarah A JOYCE 30 St George East MDX Ada C E 9 (Ada Caroline E b1892 reg Poplar) William C H (William Charles Henry b1893 reg Poplar) Elsie M 1 (Elsie May b1899 reg Poplar) RG13/345 Carolines administration with will is in 1913, listing Mary Agnes ERSSER (wife of Joseph Thomas ERSSER) So she is the surviving child But what that last wording in 1911 might be is still a mystery 1911 for ERSSER (ESSER on Ancestry) 1871 JOYCE family Saved if required Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/06/2014 20:07, Connie wrote: > I have found Caroline Margaret JOYCE, age 74, living in East India > Dock Road in the 1911 census. > > But could someone please help me decipher what she's written across > the schedule? > > She starts off by saying "All my children [born] alive by my Husband > ..." after that it gets steadily indecipherable. Right at the end the > risers and descenders get tangled up. > > I've only found one child for her and her husband, John Holman JOYCE*, > but it seems she had at least 4. > > * married 11 July 1864, St Martins in the Fields; son, Holman Langston > JOYCE b 12 June 1865, Lambeth, d Dec qtr 1868 Westminster St James, age 3. >

On 10/06/2014 23:03, Nivard Ovington wrote: > Its a good one isn't it > > Well I like a challenge but this has me foxed > > all my children born alive by my husband 4 deceased (been or born?) in > ???? ?????? It's very difficult to separate the last two words. On the next line Caroline has put "Means". Another hand has added "Pte". I'm wondering if those two words are somehow connected with that. Her husband had been a music printer, like his father Also Col 14 where she has "London/Parish not known)" she seems to have written over a (possibly) pencilled answer. It looks as though she needed help completing the schedule. > Very lightly in pencil then perhaps rubbed out it states married 47 > years, total children born alive = 4 , one still living, five children > died (which does not make a lot of sense) I suspect the numbers are in > the wrong boxes, and should be 5 - 1 - 4 47 years would be right but goodness knows how you spotted that! I can barely see it even knowing it's there! I thought the number of children might still be awry but having worked through what you found and compared with what I found I think that's right, although I have a total of six children: 5 born, 4 lost, 1 surviving with John Holman JOYCE, and 1 surviving with John BEALE. > In an effort to try and find a clue I looked through the census etc After I posted I carried on digging, so I can concur and/or add to what you've found. It helps to know someone else has found the same things I did or more. It means I'm on the right track. > Some notes below > > Marriages Sep 1864 > Joyce John Holman St Martin 1a 730 > Beale Caroline Margaret St Martin 1a 730 Caroline's maiden name was HAWKESWORTH. She'd married John BEALE in the Sept qtr of 1862 but he died the following qtr. She then married John JOYCE on 11 July 1864, St Martins in the Fields. FamilySearch has the marriage and it gives Caroline's surname as HAWKESWORTH or BEALE. I don't know if she had any children with John BEALE but there's an intriguing birth and death of a John Hawkesworth BEALE in 1860. It'll have to wait though because the BEALEs aren't really family but it may be two brothers marrying two sisters who may or may not be connected.. > Holman Langston JOYCE bap 22 Jun 1965 St Mary Lambeth > (born Holman Langstow?, died 1868 Westminster) He was born 12 June 1865. I think his middle name should be Langston and an open 'n' has been mistranscribed. I haven't got to finding out where it came from. Holman was his grandmother's maiden name. > Elizabeth b1863 Southwark (9 in 1871 census born Old Kent Road) I've picked her up in the 1881 census but I think she was Caroline's daughter by John BEALE. How did you manage to find her in 1871? I've tried several times and been unsuccessful every time. > William H (or N) (3 in 1871 born Pimlico) > (reg as William Henry Poplar 1868) > Possibly married Sarah Ann BROWN in 1911 RG14 1684 RD22 SD2 ED7 SN89 > (Ada, WIlliam & Elsie childers) > > *marriage now discounted given 1911, one child living = Mary Agnes ERSSER* This is where we differ. FamilySearch has William Alfred bapt 19 Nov 1868 in St Mary Soho to John and Caroline, died June qtr 1872 St Pancras RD There's also a Lilian Maud bapt 22 Oct 1874 in St Mary Soho, again to John and Caroline, died June qtr 1875 St Pancras RD > Charles 1870 St Pancras Middlesex (4 mths in 1871 b MDX St Pancras) > (born Charles Vernon 1870) > Joined Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders 1889 previously 5th Btn Royal > Fusiliers > Died 4th Aug 1890 (reg Farnham Surrey) > NOK John H JOYCE 3 Endell St Long Acre London MDX Charles Vernon was bapt 5 Dec 1870 at St Mary Soho to John Holman and Caroline Mary I found his death but hadn't found he was a soldier. Another place to look. > Mary Agnes 1876 St Anne Middlesex > (costumiers apprentice 1891 in Sydenham RG12 523 68 39) > Married Joseph Thomas ERSSER Lambeth 1895 I picked her up on the 1881 census but I haven't been able to find any of the family in 1891 > > ========== > > Thought this may be above William H but now discounted > > 1901 > William H JOYCE 33 railway engine driver Old Ford MDX > Sarah A JOYCE 30 St George East MDX > Ada C E 9 (Ada Caroline E b1892 reg Poplar) > William C H (William Charles Henry b1893 reg Poplar) > Elsie M 1 (Elsie May b1899 reg Poplar) > RG13/345 I'll still keep a note of him as he may yet be connected, albeit not to John Holman JOYCE. > Carolines administration with will is in 1913, listing Mary Agnes ERSSER > (wife of Joseph Thomas ERSSER) Thank you for that one. Caroline left a tidy sum. I wonder where it came from.her husband, John Holman, was a printer but doesn't seem to have left a will. > So she is the surviving child > > But what that last wording in 1911 might be is still a mystery > > 1911 for ERSSER (ESSER on Ancestry) > 1871 JOYCE family > > Saved if required Thank you :) -- Connie http://oursalmons.wordpress.com/

On 10/06/2014 23:03, Nivard Ovington wrote: > Its a good one isn't it > > Well I like a challenge but this has me foxed > > all my children born alive by my husband 4 deceased (been or born?) in > ???? ?????? I asked elsewhere subsequently. It was initially thought it might be "Laundry Worker" but that's unlikely given Caroline left just over 777GBP in her will. The concensus, more or less, is that the mystery words are "Woking Cimatry [sic]", the latter being written above "Woking". I didn't think that would be likely but apparently there were London parishes who had an arrangement for their deceased to be buried there and there was a dedicated rail line from London to Brookwood. Wikipedia has an interesting article on the cemetery. Now I have to find if any of the children were buried there. Thanks to your find of Charles Vernon being a soldier, I think I have found his parents in the 1891 census. John is down as an out of work tailor and Caroline is down as Catherine. Her daughter is given as Catherine E which lends a degree of support to my supposition that Elizabeth was her middle name. The clincher is the census family were living at 3 Endell Street, the same address Charles gave for his father on his attestation papers. -- Connie http://oursalmons.wordpress.com/

Hi again Now that is good news I missed the address check in 1891, I should have realised that one, and yes looking at that entry its definitely them, the Catherine v Caroline is almost certainly the poor old enumerator trying to read a scrawly hand on the schedule I had wondered about the Woking cemetery, I was hovering between that and Country (given where the wording was) Woking was the location of the first official cremation too I am still not 100% convinced on Woking Cemetery being the wording but I guess time will tell, if you find the burials there But a good outcome isn't it and good to hear of it, so many never repost the end of a saga Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > I asked elsewhere subsequently. It was initially thought it might > be "Laundry Worker" but that's unlikely given Caroline left just over > 777GBP in her will. > > The concensus, more or less, is that the mystery words are "Woking > Cimatry [sic]", the latter being written above "Woking". I didn't > think that would be likely but apparently there were London parishes > who had an arrangement for their deceased to be buried there and there > was a dedicated rail line from London to Brookwood. Wikipedia has an > interesting article on the cemetery. Now I have to find if any of the > children were buried there. > > Thanks to your find of Charles Vernon being a soldier, I think I have > found his parents in the 1891 census. John is down as an out of work > tailor and Caroline is down as Catherine. Her daughter is given as > Catherine E which lends a degree of support to my supposition that > Elizabeth was her middle name. The clincher is the census family were > living at 3 Endell Street, the same address Charles gave for his > father on his attestation papers. >