Thanks Katie and John, Of course, you're both right, I'm sure. I think it was the word 'Architectural' that had me wondering. His brother, also, was a wood carver but he didn't add 'Architectural' to his job description. He, the brother, worked for a very small company at about the same time and they did carvings for churches, etc., but he didn't become a priest to do it! I know he did some carving for Exeter cathedral, back in the very early 1900s, and the company had premises on which the carving was done prior to installation. Of course, a carpenter would have worked on-site because that was where the work had to be done but someone doing ornamental carving would have worked, mainly, from a workshop of some description. I'm sure that's what you're saying and I'm sure that's right. I was looking at it from the wrong direction - as I said, the word 'Architectural' blew me off course for while! In answer to your question, Katie, about passing down this skill or craft, yes, he did. His son, William junior, took it up and continued the trade but in the USA. My uncle, a nephew to both men, took up cabinet making and carpentry, which, as a builder, he used a great deal. I know he submitted, for approval, hoping to get the contract, a drawing for an ornate altar screen, for the local church, but it went to another local man. Thanks for the web address and thanks very much for your help. John -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Katie de Haan Sent: 24 July 2010 08:57 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Architectural Wood Carver Hello John If we think back to what city buildings looked like around the turn of the 20th century, examples will probably come to mind of the sort of work William Newport must have created: door and window frames and lintels, paneling, mantelpieces, decorations, heraldic and otherwise, all part of the building structure itself, so architectural carving as opposed to furniture. When I'm in the cities these days, even here in Holland, I'm often surprised by decorative doorways from the early 20th century, now that attention is gradually paid to restoring buildings in the city centres. I never noticed these doorways before, but now they are lovingly restored and given prominence. There will be photos on the internet if there are no examples to hand. And since artisans are still needed to do some of this carving, there are sites on the web where their work will be showcased, helping to make it more visual, such as http://www.archcarving.com/Carving/carving.htm Just out of interest, a possible tip: did William Newport from Hampstead maybe pass these woodworking skills down to his descandants? I ask because there may be others down the line who were similarly gifted or worked with wood from necessity. Your own generation even. There were a number of carpenters, cabinet makers , carver gilders & picture frame makers in my tree, including my great grandfather. Many of these may have had to scrape a living from their craft, but others seem to have made good of it. One distant relation by marriage was a carver gilder and picture frame maker in Oxford, England on the census, for years. As he went on, he added a sideline of antiquarian to his occupation, as he probably saw a fair amount of prosperous clients in a city like Oxford. He must have developed an eye for works of art. Then, suddenly, ten years later, he has moved up to a leafy London suburb and is calling himself 'gentleman, antiquarian'! Hmm...I had to grin about that. I also found a hitherto unknown second cousin who became a priest and on the history page of the parish where he ended his days, I read he was a priest appreciated for his many skills, including carpentry and that he was involved in the recent restoration of his church. There was even a tiny photo of him working on the restoration of his church. No prizes for guessing where he got his carpentry skills! And in a family where many men upped and left and the wives left behind destroyed all trace of their menfolk, photos of any of our relations are like gold dust. Just a thought, Katie de Haan The Netherlands -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Newport Sent: zaterdag 24 juli 2010 7:17 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: [MDX] Architectural Wood Carver Can anyone give me an idea as to what an "Architectural Wood Carver", working on his own account, from home, might have been working at, back in 1901, please? I have someone, in the 1901 census, who describes his occupation as just that. I understand from what he says that he was running his own business but doing what? What did/does an "Architectural Wood Carver" do? Would it be safe to say that that the "at home" implies that he had a workshop? TIA John ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3024 - Release Date: 07/23/10 19:36:00

Thanks Ann, I think Kew is that bit easier to get to, plus there are other things I'd like to look up, so Kew it must be! John -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of A. Day Sent: 24 July 2010 11:06 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Help with emigration to the USA - NEWPORT Kew It might be available at LDS eg at South Kensington or Staines if they are nearer Ann John Newport wrote: > > It's difficult for me to get to Kew but not impossible so I'll see what I > can work out. > > Regards, > > John > > > ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3024 - Release Date: 07/23/10 19:36:00

It might be available at LDS eg at South Kensington or Staines if they are nearer Ann John Newport wrote: > > It's difficult for me to get to Kew but not impossible so I'll see what I > can work out. > > Regards, > > John > > >

That's good . Is findmypast available at Kew ? I must go again . Ann John Newport wrote: > > It's difficult for me to get to Kew but not impossible so I'll see what I > can work out. > > Regards, > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charani > Sent: 22 July 2010 17:41 > To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MDX] Help with emigration to the USA - NEWPORT > > John Newport wrote: > > > >> 1911 census but that I will do, later. >> > > Ancestry don't have the 1911 yet. They've announced they have the > summary books but they are totally different from previous censuses. > > However, if you are able to get to the National Archives at Kew, you > can search it there, free of charge. > >

Many thanks to Nivard and Andy for their suggestions. I don't know whether or not Gladys was a person of note, but certainly colourful I think. She married quite young to a genleman of leisure when she was an actress, but divorced in 1913 and married a man of action, Alan Hartree, early aero club member, later Major in Indian Army. After his death in 1930 she seems to have stayed in India as a nurse until 1946 when independence was looming, after that I know nothing until her death so her dog breeding must have been a later role. The telephone entries will definately be for her Nivard, and I'll follow up Alan's suggestion for Richmond local studies. Many thanks, Mary

Hi Mary No sign of a HARTREE burial in the Richmond indexes which cover Teddington Cemetery A burial or cremation could of course take place anywhere I found little on Gladys There was this passenger list (into UK) Southampton, England > 1946 > November > Andes > 5 Port of embarkation Bombay Port landed Southampton HARTREE Gladys H M age 58 c/o Lloyds Bank Ltd, 5 Pall Mall London occupation Nurse Country of last permanent residence India Country of intended future permanent residence Then in the telephone directories there are the following for a G.H.M. HARTREE , could this be Gladys ? 1960-1984 > 1957 - 1960 > Outer London: Essex / Hertfordshire and North Middlesex / West Middlesex HARTREE G.H.M. 109 Strawberry va Twickenham .. Popesgro 8377 1960-1984 > 1961 - 1972 - 1978 > West Thames > 359 HARTREE G.H.M. 59 Teddington pk, Teddington...01-977 3946 No sign of a HARTREE dog breeder No mention in the Times as far as I can see Was she a person of note? public servant or similar, if not she would be unlikely to have an obituary (no harm in looking at local papers however) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Dear Listers, > I recently placed an entry hoping someone could help me find out more > about "cousin" Gladys. I've had no response and think I was too general in > my query. > She died in Teddington in June 1978 but her normal address was:Laurel > Dene, Hampton Hill, Middlesex. > Could anyone tell me where I might find burial details, and possibly an > obituary? > Also as she was described as a"dog breeder (retired)", so will there be > advertizements etc. in trade journals? > Any suggestions? > Best wishes, > Mary

Hi Mary Try my colleagues at Richmond Local Studies. If she was a dog breeder of note there may be something in their files. localstudies@richmond.gov.uk HTH Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary" <marynewbery@yahoo.co.uk> To: <MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:07 AM Subject: [MDX] Gladys Helena Hartree 1888-1978 > Dear Listers, > I recently placed an entry hoping someone could help me find out more > about "cousin" Gladys. I've had no response and think I was too general in > my query. > She died in Teddington in June 1978 but her normal address was:Laurel > Dene, Hampton Hill, Middlesex. > Could anyone tell me where I might find burial details, and possibly an > obituary? > Also as she was described as a"dog breeder (retired)", so will there be > advertizements etc. in trade journals? > Any suggestions? > Best wishes, > Mary > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello John If we think back to what city buildings looked like around the turn of the 20th century, examples will probably come to mind of the sort of work William Newport must have created: door and window frames and lintels, paneling, mantelpieces, decorations, heraldic and otherwise, all part of the building structure itself, so architectural carving as opposed to furniture. When I'm in the cities these days, even here in Holland, I'm often surprised by decorative doorways from the early 20th century, now that attention is gradually paid to restoring buildings in the city centres. I never noticed these doorways before, but now they are lovingly restored and given prominence. There will be photos on the internet if there are no examples to hand. And since artisans are still needed to do some of this carving, there are sites on the web where their work will be showcased, helping to make it more visual, such as http://www.archcarving.com/Carving/carving.htm Just out of interest, a possible tip: did William Newport from Hampstead maybe pass these woodworking skills down to his descandants? I ask because there may be others down the line who were similarly gifted or worked with wood from necessity. Your own generation even. There were a number of carpenters, cabinet makers , carver gilders & picture frame makers in my tree, including my great grandfather. Many of these may have had to scrape a living from their craft, but others seem to have made good of it. One distant relation by marriage was a carver gilder and picture frame maker in Oxford, England on the census, for years. As he went on, he added a sideline of antiquarian to his occupation, as he probably saw a fair amount of prosperous clients in a city like Oxford. He must have developed an eye for works of art. Then, suddenly, ten years later, he has moved up to a leafy London suburb and is calling himself 'gentleman, antiquarian'! Hmm...I had to grin about that. I also found a hitherto unknown second cousin who became a priest and on the history page of the parish where he ended his days, I read he was a priest appreciated for his many skills, including carpentry and that he was involved in the recent restoration of his church. There was even a tiny photo of him working on the restoration of his church. No prizes for guessing where he got his carpentry skills! And in a family where many men upped and left and the wives left behind destroyed all trace of their menfolk, photos of any of our relations are like gold dust. Just a thought, Katie de Haan The Netherlands -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Newport Sent: zaterdag 24 juli 2010 7:17 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: [MDX] Architectural Wood Carver Can anyone give me an idea as to what an "Architectural Wood Carver", working on his own account, from home, might have been working at, back in 1901, please? I have someone, in the 1901 census, who describes his occupation as just that. I understand from what he says that he was running his own business but doing what? What did/does an "Architectural Wood Carver" do? Would it be safe to say that that the "at home" implies that he had a workshop? TIA John ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Listers, I recently placed an entry hoping someone could help me find out more about "cousin" Gladys. I've had no response and think I was too general in my query. She died in Teddington in June 1978 but her normal address was:Laurel Dene, Hampton Hill, Middlesex. Could anyone tell me where I might find burial details, and possibly an obituary? Also as she was described as a"dog breeder (retired)", so will there be advertizements etc. in trade journals? Any suggestions? Best wishes, Mary

Can anyone give me an idea as to what an "Architectural Wood Carver", working on his own account, from home, might have been working at, back in 1901, please? I have someone, in the 1901 census, who describes his occupation as just that. I understand from what he says that he was running his own business but doing what? What did/does an "Architectural Wood Carver" do? Would it be safe to say that that the "at home" implies that he had a workshop? TIA John

So, the fingers on the keyboard don't seem to register what one means and perhaps late at night, tired...... Message ought to have read: Ahh, so sad. How does one deal with all of this, children dying so soon after birth and mothers passing on during childbirth! Should we not be eternally grateful that we now live in a modern world of caring obstetrics? Graham Melbourne Oz ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 07:58 PM 23/07/2010, you wrote: >Notice also that little Florence Alice PETHER died at 2 years of age >in St Saviours, 1884 on free BDM. >Jan Ahh, so sad. How does one deal with all of this, children dying so soon after birth and mothers passing on during childbirth! Should be not be eternally grateful that we now live in a modern word of caring obstetrics? Graham Melbourne Oz

Notice also that little Florence Alice PETHER died at 2 years of age in St Saviours, 1884 on free BDM. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Price" <genetree@tpg.com.au> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [MDX] BENNETT/NICHOLLS/PETHER > At 06:25 PM 23/07/2010, you wrote: >>Hi Graham >> >>The Florence M(ary) born in Mortlake is out of the frame > > Oh dear, looks as if perhaps one of the others, perhaps Caroline born > and died in the same year could be on the frame. Oh, does it not > cramp the heart to see these things, births and deaths within the > same quarter and knowing that the mother also died at the same time? > It screws me up each time I see something like this. Hurts. Surely > mothers to be these days are exceptionally grateful for all the > medical help they get, unlike in the 1870s? So sad. > Graham > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

G'day Graham, Have you seen 1881 census record RG11 Folio 0846/8, page 10... William and Sarah PETHER with daughter, Florence (5) who was born in Mortlake, Surrey along with several other children? William is 40 and a grocer , the family living in High St, Mortlake. Did you find "your" William in 1881? Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Price" <genetree@tpg.com.au> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 5:17 PM Subject: [MDX] BENNETT/NICHOLLS/PETHER > Hi all > > Just a little meditation upon a few findings, if I may. > > I recently found that my Mary Ann Eliza Bennett, bap. Dec 1850 St. > Margaret's Westminster, eldest dau of William John Bennett and Mary > Ann Bennett nee Pittway, married William Robert Pether at St. Luke's > Chelsea 28 Apr 1878. I find that she is deceased (March Qtr 1879) and > that in the 1891 census William is noted as widower with no children > living with him. William's father was Samuel and mother Marie and > while browsing around Ancestry.com I came across Mary Ann Eliza's > sister-in-law's (Pether) marriage two days prior to Mary Ann's > wedding, which got me thinking as it does - would there perhaps have > been a child born (hopefully), or a still-born, or whatever when Mary > Ann died during that March quarter of 1879? Well, there were several > Pether children born in the district who might have fitted this > situation and several also died the same year, but one I particularly > zoomed in on was Florence Alice, born (or shown to be born) September > quarter 1879 St. Saviours (just across the river). This would seem to > stretch the imagination a little far, but if the child was not > registered for a few months, well, just maybe? Hmmn. > > Anyway, following on this line of thought and wondering if any Pether > members of the family may have taken into their warming arms a child > without a mother I then came across a marriage of one James William > Nicholls to an Eliza Pether (Lambeth 1d 498) June quarter 1877. Okay, > so checking into the 1881 census one finds living at Richmond Surrey, > Barnes? High Street: RG11/848, one James Wm Nicholls and wife Eliza > with no children but one niece Florence M. Pether 5 years, scholar, > born Surrey Mortlake. Some considerable inconsistencies here, so one > wonders if the census is incorrect, or if it is correct, is it > worthwhile applying for the birth certificate of Florence A > Pether? Is she A or M? Born Mortlake or St. Saviour? Amazing > coincidence, whatever, and intriguing. (Just shows you how one can > get lost in genealogy!!!) If anyone has access to other records and > may find some clues, I certainly would be impressed. Of course, I am > hoping that a child from that Bennett/Pether married did survive > though have my doubts. There are so many that did not. > > Cheers > Graham > Melbourne > Oz > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

At 06:25 PM 23/07/2010, you wrote: >Hi Graham > >The Florence M(ary) born in Mortlake is out of the frame Oh dear, looks as if perhaps one of the others, perhaps Caroline born and died in the same year could be on the frame. Oh, does it not cramp the heart to see these things, births and deaths within the same quarter and knowing that the mother also died at the same time? It screws me up each time I see something like this. Hurts. Surely mothers to be these days are exceptionally grateful for all the medical help they get, unlike in the 1870s? So sad. Graham

Thanks to both Vivian Simmonds and Keith Jacobs who deciphered the marriage record (21 June 1765, St Giles, Camberwell, Southwark, Middlesex) for me and confirmed that both John and Elizabeth were widowed before their marriage to each other. I am now going to search for their respective 'first' marriages and hopefully find a way to get back to the earlier generation. Regards and thanks, Libby ------------------------------ Elizabeth K McMillan - ekmcm@me.com

I am posting my names i am researching in the Middlesex area they are. Constant Ellis Burgess ans Ford are there any rellies on line.Beryle Mason

Sorry Graham - nice try though ! Florence Mary Pether Gender: Female Birth Date: 9 Oct 1875 Christening Date: 5 Dec 1875 Christening Place: Mortlake, Surrey, England Age at Christening: 0 Father's Name: William Pether Mother's Name: Sarah Source Citation: Place: Mortlake, Surrey, England; Date Range: 1677 - 1881; Film Number: 1041795. Anne South Australia Graham Price wrote: > > Anyway, following on this line of thought and wondering if any Pether > members of the family may have taken into their warming arms a child > without a mother I then came across a marriage of one James William > Nicholls to an Eliza Pether (Lambeth 1d 498) June quarter 1877. Okay, > so checking into the 1881 census one finds living at Richmond Surrey, > Barnes? High Street: RG11/848, one James Wm Nicholls and wife Eliza > with no children but one niece Florence M. Pether 5 years, scholar, > born Surrey Mortlake. Some considerable inconsistencies here, so one > wonders if the census is incorrect, or if it is correct, is it > worthwhile applying for the birth certificate of Florence A > Pether? Is she A or M? Born Mortlake or St. Saviour? Amazing > coincidence, whatever, and intriguing. (Just shows you how one can > get lost in genealogy!!!) If anyone has access to other records and > may find some clues, I certainly would be impressed. Of course, I am > hoping that a child from that Bennett/Pether married did survive > though have my doubts. There are so many that did not. > > Cheers > Graham > Melbourne > Oz

Hi all Just a little meditation upon a few findings, if I may. I recently found that my Mary Ann Eliza Bennett, bap. Dec 1850 St. Margaret's Westminster, eldest dau of William John Bennett and Mary Ann Bennett nee Pittway, married William Robert Pether at St. Luke's Chelsea 28 Apr 1878. I find that she is deceased (March Qtr 1879) and that in the 1891 census William is noted as widower with no children living with him. William's father was Samuel and mother Marie and while browsing around Ancestry.com I came across Mary Ann Eliza's sister-in-law's (Pether) marriage two days prior to Mary Ann's wedding, which got me thinking as it does - would there perhaps have been a child born (hopefully), or a still-born, or whatever when Mary Ann died during that March quarter of 1879? Well, there were several Pether children born in the district who might have fitted this situation and several also died the same year, but one I particularly zoomed in on was Florence Alice, born (or shown to be born) September quarter 1879 St. Saviours (just across the river). This would seem to stretch the imagination a little far, but if the child was not registered for a few months, well, just maybe? Hmmn. Anyway, following on this line of thought and wondering if any Pether members of the family may have taken into their warming arms a child without a mother I then came across a marriage of one James William Nicholls to an Eliza Pether (Lambeth 1d 498) June quarter 1877. Okay, so checking into the 1881 census one finds living at Richmond Surrey, Barnes? High Street: RG11/848, one James Wm Nicholls and wife Eliza with no children but one niece Florence M. Pether 5 years, scholar, born Surrey Mortlake. Some considerable inconsistencies here, so one wonders if the census is incorrect, or if it is correct, is it worthwhile applying for the birth certificate of Florence A Pether? Is she A or M? Born Mortlake or St. Saviour? Amazing coincidence, whatever, and intriguing. (Just shows you how one can get lost in genealogy!!!) If anyone has access to other records and may find some clues, I certainly would be impressed. Of course, I am hoping that a child from that Bennett/Pether married did survive though have my doubts. There are so many that did not. Cheers Graham Melbourne Oz

Beryle wrote: > I am posting my names i am researching in the Middlesex area they > are. Constant Ellis Burgess ans Ford are there any rellies on > line What period are you talking about? Where in Middlesex? Any specific names? Without any specific information, you're unlikely to find any connections. FORD and ELLIS are quite common names, so there could be many people on the list with those name who are not connected to you. I have an ELLIS family but they are to the east and north. I've amended your subject line to something slightly more informative. I'd suggest a separate mail for each of your four names of interest giving much more detail with the surname (at least and in CAPS), area and dates in the subject line so that anyone searching the archives can find you more easily. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk