Hi Nivard I like your analogy :) Very true! In one particular case I have, I know the husband left the wife a lot of money but maybe she went on a spending spree after he died! Many thanks for the Death duty link too - I shall definitely explore that avenue. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: 11 September 2010 21:12 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Missing Admins/Wills Hi Carolyn Not a silly question I can assure you People that left a will are very much in the minority Death duties would be after probate as you say but not all paid death duties See http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http% 3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalarchives.gov.uk%2Fcatalogue%2Fleaflets%2Fri2164.htm&lBac k=-1 Just because someone appeared to have money (particularly those in business) it does not necessarily follow they actually had any money No different than today, not everyone driving a shiny new car owns it <g> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >I have a number of people in my tree who died pre and post 1858 that I > believe had some wealth or owned their own business but do not appear to > have left a Will. I cannot find any letter of administration for them so > would someone be able to tell me what would have happened to their assets > in > this instance? I presume Death Duties only occurred following Probate? >

Many thanks for your help Caroline. There are a number of different families I have with this problem and yes, I should have said, I have tried TNA Docs online. However, I have not yet looked at the death Duty Registers so I think that must be my next step for pre 1858 deaths. Thank you for the link and suggestion about fmp's article - I rarely use them but think it is time I did! For my post 1858 deaths I went up to Principal Probate Office in Holborn a couple of times and scoured the books - great fun :) and very rewarding in many instances but not all. I also have a sub to Ancestry and with their Index have been able to find quite a few more. I think the Probate office must be inundated as the ones I have ordered are taking a very long time to come!! I do appreciate that many families did not write Wills (and that those that did seemed to run in families). However, I think your final sentence explains it to me. If everything was passed on to their families with no need for legal formalities then presumably no one knew about it and no death duties were paid? I really appreciate your help Caroline, and your input too Charani. Off to search again... Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Caroline Bradford Sent: 11 September 2010 17:54 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Missing Admins/Wills Hi Carol As you are, I think, aware, the situation before 1858 is very different to that after it. Prior to that key date, wills could have been proved in (or administrations granted by) a variety of church courts. You don't say where you have looked so far, though I assume that you have thoroughly searched the PCC wills index at DocumentsOnline. A thorough guide to the other possibilities is published by the London Metropolitan Archives at http://tinyurl.com/2d5bqyk. If that all looks a bit daunting, one good shortcut is (as you have already guessed) the Death Duty Registers which are available online at www.findmypast.co.uk (subscription or pay per view). These are not indexed, but if you have dates of death then your search will be easier. It is well worth reading their knowledge base article on the subject before you start. After 1858, if a will or administration exists then it should figure in the National Probate Calendars. Ancestry now have most of these online, but there are some quite significant gaps, which they hope to have filled soon(!). Is it possible that you are just unlucky and your ancestors died in the missing years? If so, the full calendars are available on film through your local LDS centre, or in lovely old-fashioned ledger form at the Principal Probate Registry in Chancery Lane. You also have to be prepared for the fact that will making was by no means universal even in the second half of the 19th century. Nor would it always have been necessary for a family to apply for an administration of a deceased person's estate. If a person's estate was entirely in cash, personal effects and stock-in-trade, and if there was no dispute within the family about who should inherit, then they may not have bothered with legal formalities. Hope this helps Caroline > > I have a number of people in my tree who died pre and post 1858 that I > believe had some wealth or owned their own business but do not appear > to > have left a Will. I cannot find any letter of administration for them > so > would someone be able to tell me what would have happened to their > assets in > this instance? I presume Death Duties only occurred following Probate? > > > > I am sorry if this questions appear silly but this is a new area for me > to > delve into! > > > > Many thanks > > > > Carolyn > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Carolyn Not a silly question I can assure you People that left a will are very much in the minority Death duties would be after probate as you say but not all paid death duties See http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalarchives.gov.uk%2Fcatalogue%2Fleaflets%2Fri2164.htm&lBack=-1 Just because someone appeared to have money (particularly those in business) it does not necessarily follow they actually had any money No different than today, not everyone driving a shiny new car owns it <g> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >I have a number of people in my tree who died pre and post 1858 that I > believe had some wealth or owned their own business but do not appear to > have left a Will. I cannot find any letter of administration for them so > would someone be able to tell me what would have happened to their assets > in > this instance? I presume Death Duties only occurred following Probate? > > I am sorry if this questions appear silly but this is a new area for me to > delve into! > > Many thanks > > Carolyn

Caroline Bradford wrote: > After 1858, if a will or administration exists then it should figure in the > National Probate Calendars. [...] If so, the full calendars are available on film > through your local LDS centre, Many county record offices also have the National Probate Index too. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hi Carol As you are, I think, aware, the situation before 1858 is very different to that after it. Prior to that key date, wills could have been proved in (or administrations granted by) a variety of church courts. You don't say where you have looked so far, though I assume that you have thoroughly searched the PCC wills index at DocumentsOnline. A thorough guide to the other possibilities is published by the London Metropolitan Archives at http://tinyurl.com/2d5bqyk. If that all looks a bit daunting, one good shortcut is (as you have already guessed) the Death Duty Registers which are available online at www.findmypast.co.uk (subscription or pay per view). These are not indexed, but if you have dates of death then your search will be easier. It is well worth reading their knowledge base article on the subject before you start. After 1858, if a will or administration exists then it should figure in the National Probate Calendars. Ancestry now have most of these online, but there are some quite significant gaps, which they hope to have filled soon(!). Is it possible that you are just unlucky and your ancestors died in the missing years? If so, the full calendars are available on film through your local LDS centre, or in lovely old-fashioned ledger form at the Principal Probate Registry in Chancery Lane. You also have to be prepared for the fact that will making was by no means universal even in the second half of the 19th century. Nor would it always have been necessary for a family to apply for an administration of a deceased person's estate. If a person's estate was entirely in cash, personal effects and stock-in-trade, and if there was no dispute within the family about who should inherit, then they may not have bothered with legal formalities. Hope this helps Caroline > > I have a number of people in my tree who died pre and post 1858 that I > believe had some wealth or owned their own business but do not appear > to > have left a Will. I cannot find any letter of administration for them > so > would someone be able to tell me what would have happened to their > assets in > this instance? I presume Death Duties only occurred following Probate? > > > > I am sorry if this questions appear silly but this is a new area for me > to > delve into! > > > > Many thanks > > > > Carolyn > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

hambrooq@shaw.ca

I have a number of people in my tree who died pre and post 1858 that I believe had some wealth or owned their own business but do not appear to have left a Will. I cannot find any letter of administration for them so would someone be able to tell me what would have happened to their assets in this instance? I presume Death Duties only occurred following Probate? I am sorry if this questions appear silly but this is a new area for me to delve into! Many thanks Carolyn

The 1841 census shows Laurette ADAMS, age 25, and Mary ADAMS, aged 20, living at Cardington Street, St Pancras. The 1851 census shows Laurette ADAMS, age 39 unmarried born Middlesex, and her sister, Mary ADAMS age 36 unmarried born Middlesex, living at 6, Bedford Street, St Pancras. Also at the same address is Ann KEITH. Ann is shown as age 32 married born Middlesex, the sister of Laurette. Ann was not married, her surname was not Keith and I can see no reason to think that she was Laurette's sister. The 1861 census has Laurette, age 49 unmarried born Marylebone, living at 16, Queen Terrace St, Pancras with her sister, Mary, age 47 unmarried born Marylebone. Ann KEITH and her 2 children were at the same address. Laurette appears to missing from the 1871 census. Her sister Mary is shown living with her brother, Julian L Adams, age 65, at Kentish Town, St Pancras. Ann is also at this house and is shown as Julian's sister. In 1871 Laurette is at Ann KEITH's home at 174 St Johns Road St Mary Islington. Laurette's death is shown in the GRO index at Hampstead in 1892 age 92. Can anyone tell me any more about Laurette, Mary and Julian ADAMS? David

Neil Milkins is shortly filming for a one hour documentary on the unsolved murders of eight women in the Hammersmith district of London between 1959 and 1965. It will feature Abertillery born Harold Jones the killer of two Abertillery schoolchildren in 1921.The documentary is part of eight one hour episodes of Fred Dineage's Crime Stories. The programme will be aired throughout Britain and Europe on the History Channel (Crime and Investigation Channel) in April 2011. The presenter expert is Britain's top criminologist, professor David Wilson.

Hi All Please find a message I sent to the London List. Cheers Maxwell. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Elizabeth Morgan, Joseph Spencer, William Morgan, Margaret Roxbrough Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:57:48 +1000 From: Maxwell Smith <maxwells@grapevine.com.au> To: LONDON-D@rootsweb.com Hi All I'm looking for the family of Elizabeth Morgan, who married by banns Joseph Spencer (1787 Fifield OXF- 1855 Fifield OXF) at St Marylebone in 1811. She was buried at St Leonards Shoreditch in 1826, aged 39. She had four children, Eliza (1814 Millwall, Islington), MaryAnn& Charles John (1818 Millwall), Emily Susannah (1820 Shoreditch) and Harriot Elizabeth (1823 Shoreditch). There is an Elizabeth Morgan who was baptised in 1786 at Saint Mary Church, St Marylebone with parents William and Margaret Morgan. A William Morgan married a Margaret Roxbrough at St Mary Church in 1778. There may be a Scottish connection as there is a Morgan Clan and Roxbrough or Roxborough is connected to another Clan, Roxburgh. The baptism details for this Elizabeth Morgan is consistent with the burial age and place for the marriage with Joseph Spencer. Grateful for any assistance in proving up Elizabeth's pedigree. Cheers Maxwell.

Hi Rebecca, His death appears to be indexed on Ancestry as follows: George Gordon Bird Birth date: March 17,1903 Died: Mar 1985 Age: 82 Registration District: Bromley County: Kent With kindest regards, Jon

Does anyone know of or research the family of this George Bird? His parents were Reginald George Gordon Bird and mother Alice Richards. He md Matilda Barker in Poplar and had daughters who md Tilbury and Melrose. He may have lived in Mayfair in the 1940s. Where did he live after that? When and where did he die?

I thinbk that the link provided should be:- http://www.maps.thehunthouse.com/Streets/Old_to_New_London_Street_Name_changes.htm Original message:- 4. Re: Help with Street name please. (Sue Gutheridge) > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:12:36 +0100 > From: gutheridge sue<eddie.ed@blueyonder.co.uk> > Subject: [MDX] Help with Street name please. > To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTincZ3u06VyyG_AqNESCuij47YKOhKMBxp-s+sKe@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi All, My Gt x 3 Grandfather died at 66 Stanley Street St Hanover Square - > Could some one tell me what the street is now called please. Someone did > tell me a while ago but cannot find it anywhere in my records. > Many Thanks > Sue > > >

Ellen Murray wrote: > Pat this may help you. > Show Cards > Show Cards such as the one above > are most often used to advertise > an upcoming event...... If you sent an image with your mail, Pat won't see it because Rootsweb strip out images. The reason being they can be used to transmit viruses, trojans and the like. You'd need to let Pat know first then sent her the image or post a link to it. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen Murray" <ellen.murray@sympatico.ca> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [MDX] Show Card Manufacturer > This was meant for Pat and no image was attached. Thought she wanted to > know what a Show Card Manufacturer did so copy & pasted brief description > for her, they print Show Cards for Events, so inessence her Ancestor was a > Printer of sorts.. > > Thanks Charani for your comments tho. > Ellen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charani" <charani.b@gmail.com> > To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [MDX] Show Card Manufacturer > > >> Ellen Murray wrote: >>> Pat this may help you. >>> Show Cards >>> Show Cards such as the one above >>> are most often used to advertise >>> an upcoming event...... >> >> If you sent an image with your mail, Pat won't see it because Rootsweb >> strip out images. The reason being they can be used to transmit >> viruses, trojans and the like. >> >> You'd need to let Pat know first then sent her the image or post a >> link to it. >> >> -- >> Charani (UK) >> OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM >> Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM >> http://wsom-opc.org.uk >> ************************************** >> Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** >> superfluous old messages in replies. >> >> List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

Pat A "show card" is a tradesman's advertisement mounted on card as a poster. Regards Jon Baker -----Original Message----- I don't know what a Show  card manufacturer would do though!?

      Many thanks to Charani for replying to my query re occupation  of Udolph Dyke. I don't know what a Show  card manufacturer would do though!? Thanks for taking the time to look for me. Pat pat bernie wrote: > Udolph Ernest Dyke age 26 married to Ellen Dyke age 26 - wrongly transcribed on > > 1901 census as Adolph Ernest Dyke age 76. > RG/1617 North Leyton district p2 Sch 16 > occ ? Card manufacturer- looks like Ghoor ????? It looks like Show Card Manufacturer.  The check mark against the entries is effectively adding a descender to the initial "S". -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Pat this may help you. Show Cards Show Cards such as the one above are most often used to advertise an upcoming event...... Ellen ----- Original Message ----- From: "pat bernie" <thebulleys@yahoo.co.uk> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:50 AM Subject: [MDX] thanks to Charani Many thanks to Charani for replying to my query re occupation of Udolph Dyke. I don't know what a Show card manufacturer would do though!? Thanks for taking the time to look for me. Pat pat bernie wrote: > Udolph Ernest Dyke age 26 married to Ellen Dyke age 26 - wrongly > transcribed on > > 1901 census as Adolph Ernest Dyke age 76. > RG/1617 North Leyton district p2 Sch 16 > occ ? Card manufacturer- looks like Ghoor ????? It looks like Show Card Manufacturer. The check mark against the entries is effectively adding a descender to the initial "S". -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Three major engineering institutions are holding an open day designed for family historians at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE), Westminster, 23 September 2010 from 1pm – 4:30pm. This event should be of interest for those researching the history of civil, mechanical or electrical engineers and the engineering industry, and who would like to talk with the experts and take a closer look at the historical records available. It offers a chance to see some of the archives of the IMechE, the Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE) and the Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET, previously known as the Institution of Electrical Engineers). The archivists will also be giving short talks on researching your engineering ancestors, the international history of engineering, technical education and engineering in wartime. The event is free but pre-booking is essential: email the IMechE Archives at archive@imeche.org Info: Info: http://tiny.cc/3ctf0 Ann Middx Admin

Hi Nivard,  Thanks for the help.  You were right...I was using the older search engine.  Although I have registered and used the newer FamilySearch engine, I found the older one more familiar (old dogs, etc).  I had thought that as they expanded the data base, all 3 FamilySearch pages would be accessing it. Thanks again, Scott B Canada