Tower Hamlets Local History Library and Archives will be closing the service temporarily for building works and reorganisation from week commencing Monday 27 September. (This appears to have been put back from the originally planned summer closure.) Between now and Saturday 25 September inclusive there is a reduced service as follows: Thursday, Friday & Saturday 9am to 5pm each day Following the building works the library will re-open at the end of November 2010. During the closure a limited remote enquiry service will be offered via phone and email. Tower Hamlets Local History and Archives Library 277 Bancroft Road El 4DQ Tel: 020 7364 1290 Fax: 020 7364 1292 Email: localhistory@towerhamlets.gov.uk. Ann Middx Admin

Hi Jan, Thanks, somehow I hadn't seen that one, but after hours of census searching I can eliminate him from my enquiries, his wife had been Ann, born in Somerset, according to the 1861. There are other unconfirmed possibilities for Mary Ann, usually Thurgood, who is the one I'm interested in, including the workhouse in Saffron Walden in 1861, place of birth unknown. She is likely to be the one who died as Thurgood, in Saffron Walden in 1869. Probably not much use to buy the certificate, as if they didn't know her birthplace when she was alive, they presumably didn't when she was dead. Thank you to all who contributed answers to my questions. Jan -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan Hearn Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:45 AM To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall Jan, I guess you've also seen the 1881 census entry for John THOROUGHOOD (as transcribed to Familysearch) 79,born South Aningfield, Essex ( Hanningfield) who was a retired shopkeeper living in High St Great Wakering, Essex. Piece 1772 Folio 9 page 12. Jan

HI Jan, English death certificates do not give the birth place of the deceased. So it is neither here nor there whether anyone else knew the birth place of that Mary Thurgood/Thoroughwood who died in 1869. The only thing that might give a clue about her is her which should appear on the death cert., is her age at death, but that could be out by a year or more. Also the name of her husband that should appear on the death cert. of a married woman or widow. Another clue might possibly be the address at which she died, though again you can't be certain that it will match any address you have for her from other sources. She could have died in an infirmary of some kind or the workhouse etc., and not at home. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<She is likely to be the one who died as > Thurgood, in Saffron Walden in 1869. Probably not much use to buy the > certificate, as if they didn't know her birthplace when she was alive, > they > presumably didn't when she was dead.>>

There should be no differences between the details for the marriage you have found already and a copy from the Registry office or the GRO. What you have found on Ancestry would be the original source of the marriage and anything you order from the District Registrars office or the GRO at Southport would be a copy of that entry you already have found, from the GRO it would be a copy of a copy of a copy of the original. What you have is the original source with the original signatures of the Bride and Groom and their witnesses. The copies obtained from other sources would not have those original signatures but copies of them. Why waste money on a copy when you have the original already? For marriages that take place in a Church The Vicar makes our and sends a copy of that parish register entry of marriage to the District Registrars office who then make a further copy to send on to the General Register Office. The church keeps the original register. This is why if you wanted to order a copy of a marriage entry from the District Registry office they always need to know which church the marriage took place in before they can begin to look through their registers. It is different with Births and deaths because someone has to go to the District Registry office to register a birth or death directly to the Registrar. But marriages in Churches are written up in the first instance by the vicar/priest conducting the marriage. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<> I have found a marriage record Emma Arnold / Joseph Hammond in ancestry > under the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 > If I order a marriage certificate from records office would there likely > be > any different information on it?>>

Hi Shannon The certificate you see on Ancestry is a scan of the original, as signed by the couple If you order the same event from the GRO what you will get is a copy made from a transcript sent quarterly from the local registrar to the GRO So it should be the same but may include any mistakes made in the process Why not post more details on your family and see if it can be proven within reason before you go further, as you seem to have some doubts If you give the details , census refs etc we can take a look for you Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > HI, > > > I have found a marriage record Emma Arnold / Joseph Hammond in ancestry > under the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 > > If I order a marriage certificate from records office would there likely > be > any different information on it? > > I thought I had Emma Arnold sorted to census records, but having ordered > the > mother's death certificate, I think I have the wrong family. > > I know I have it correct from 1881 census. Cannot seem to match things up > nicely with the earlier 1871 or 1861 census. > > I like the look of Kensington born and still need to order that birth > cert - > just hope it is correct having just paid and anxiously waited for the > arrival of one that seems unrelated :) > > Thanks > Shannon

Jan, I guess you've also seen the 1881 census entry for John THOROUGHOOD (as transcribed to Familysearch) 79,born South Aningfield, Essex ( Hanningfield) who was a retired shopkeeper living in High St Great Wakering, Essex. Piece 1772 Folio 9 page 12. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan" <jangmc@bigpond.com> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall > Sorry, I hit Send instead of save. The rest of my last message should read > that Saffron Waldon nonconformist registers on Hugh Wallis' site have many > THURGOODs, and I wonder if that was the usual spelling. There is even a > marriage for a John, who while older than Mary Wasper, is a possibility for > a first marriage. But it is a patron submission with no sources. > > I guess it's a matter of working slowly through all possibilities. > > Jan > South Australia > > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sorry, I hit Send instead of save. The rest of my last message should read that Saffron Waldon nonconformist registers on Hugh Wallis' site have many THURGOODs, and I wonder if that was the usual spelling. There is even a marriage for a John, who while older than Mary Wasper, is a possibility for a first marriage. But it is a patron submission with no sources. I guess it's a matter of working slowly through all possibilities. Jan South Australia

Thanks for looking, Jan, I had found these, but I need some intervening ones to tie them to my people. I suspect that they may be one of the many variants, ranging from Thurwood to Thoroughgood. I tried Hugh Wallis' batch numbers site for Saffron Waldon, and there are many -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan Hearn Sent: Monday, 13 September 2010 5:34 PM To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall G'day Jan, There is a Jessie Constance THOROUGHWOOD, born 1905 in Poplar who died, aged two, in Romford. Also, Miriam THOROUGHWOOD, died Merthyr Tydfil, Wales in 1892. These are on free BDM UK. There is also a THOROUGHWOOD born in Qld in 1972 on Genes Reunited. Hope this helps a little, Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan" <jangmc@bigpond.com> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall > Hi, > > In Ancestry "London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921", > I have found the following record: Mary WASPER married John THOROUGHWOOD on > 21 July 1822 at St Mary, Staines. She was noted as being from Longford, > Middlesex, and John THOROUGHWOOD was noted as being from Saffron Walden in > Essex. They were both sojourners in this parish, ie St Mary, Staines. > > I have Mary WASPER's baptism...as VASPER, but this little branch of the > family used both,....at Harmondsworth, and can fit her with confidence into > my tree up to this marriage. > > But I can find no record of either of them after the marriage. THOROUGHWOOD > seems to be an extremely rare name, and there are none of them spelt like > this, in any census, Free BMD indexes, or Familysearch, as far as I can > find. There are, however, dozens of variants, and I am stumped. > > Can any clever person give me a clue? > > Also, there are 2 original copies of the record of this marriage (both no. > 72)...they are identical except that on one of them the witnesses and Mary > have signed their names...Mary's is a bit wobbly but very clear, and the > other one has the vicar filling in the whole thing. I am guessing that he > had assumed no-one could write, and they put him straight and insisted on > doing it themselves. Could this have happened? > > I just noticed there are several other duplicates, and now wonder if the > vicar rewrote them thinking the ones with the original signatures were a bit > messy!!? > > Jan > South Australia > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nivard, are they the same register ? In one, the page numbers are printed and in the other they are handwritten and seem to be condensed and there is a page of baptisms in between. It makes me wonder if they are not two different volumes or just loose leaves. Anne South Australia Nivard Ovington wrote: > Hi Jan > > The two reasons I have come across for copies are firstly when there is a > smaller chapel or church satellite to a mother church and one has their own > register which is then copied into the mother churches registers > > And second where both the original and the bishops transcripts exist and are > both scanned > > Neither seems to be the case here as they are in the same register two pages > apart > > Perhaps the Vicar or Clerk thought one or other had missed some entries out > and duplicated them , its odd the pages 4, 5& 6 are in reverse, did they > fill them out for the BTs with the intention of removing those pages and not > complete the task? > > Also strange is that they do not have the same entries on them > > I will be interested in others thoughts on it > > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

G'day Jan, There is a Jessie Constance THOROUGHWOOD, born 1905 in Poplar who died, aged two, in Romford. Also, Miriam THOROUGHWOOD, died Merthyr Tydfil, Wales in 1892. These are on free BDM UK. There is also a THOROUGHWOOD born in Qld in 1972 on Genes Reunited. Hope this helps a little, Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan" <jangmc@bigpond.com> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall > Hi, > > In Ancestry "London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921", > I have found the following record: Mary WASPER married John THOROUGHWOOD on > 21 July 1822 at St Mary, Staines. She was noted as being from Longford, > Middlesex, and John THOROUGHWOOD was noted as being from Saffron Walden in > Essex. They were both sojourners in this parish, ie St Mary, Staines. > > I have Mary WASPER's baptism...as VASPER, but this little branch of the > family used both,....at Harmondsworth, and can fit her with confidence into > my tree up to this marriage. > > But I can find no record of either of them after the marriage. THOROUGHWOOD > seems to be an extremely rare name, and there are none of them spelt like > this, in any census, Free BMD indexes, or Familysearch, as far as I can > find. There are, however, dozens of variants, and I am stumped. > > Can any clever person give me a clue? > > Also, there are 2 original copies of the record of this marriage (both no. > 72)...they are identical except that on one of them the witnesses and Mary > have signed their names...Mary's is a bit wobbly but very clear, and the > other one has the vicar filling in the whole thing. I am guessing that he > had assumed no-one could write, and they put him straight and insisted on > doing it themselves. Could this have happened? > > I just noticed there are several other duplicates, and now wonder if the > vicar rewrote them thinking the ones with the original signatures were a bit > messy!!? > > Jan > South Australia > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

One register is a copy of the other. The original is the signed one. Anne South Australia Jan wrote: snip > > Also, there are 2 original copies of the record of this marriage (both no. > 72)...they are identical except that on one of them the witnesses and Mary > have signed their names...Mary's is a bit wobbly but very clear, and the > other one has the vicar filling in the whole thing. I am guessing that he > had assumed no-one could write, and they put him straight and insisted on > doing it themselves. Could this have happened? > > I just noticed there are several other duplicates, and now wonder if the > vicar rewrote them thinking the ones with the original signatures were a bit > messy!!? > > Jan > South Australia

Hi, In Ancestry "London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921", I have found the following record: Mary WASPER married John THOROUGHWOOD on 21 July 1822 at St Mary, Staines. She was noted as being from Longford, Middlesex, and John THOROUGHWOOD was noted as being from Saffron Walden in Essex. They were both sojourners in this parish, ie St Mary, Staines. I have Mary WASPER's baptism...as VASPER, but this little branch of the family used both,....at Harmondsworth, and can fit her with confidence into my tree up to this marriage. But I can find no record of either of them after the marriage. THOROUGHWOOD seems to be an extremely rare name, and there are none of them spelt like this, in any census, Free BMD indexes, or Familysearch, as far as I can find. There are, however, dozens of variants, and I am stumped. Can any clever person give me a clue? Also, there are 2 original copies of the record of this marriage (both no. 72)...they are identical except that on one of them the witnesses and Mary have signed their names...Mary's is a bit wobbly but very clear, and the other one has the vicar filling in the whole thing. I am guessing that he had assumed no-one could write, and they put him straight and insisted on doing it themselves. Could this have happened? I just noticed there are several other duplicates, and now wonder if the vicar rewrote them thinking the ones with the original signatures were a bit messy!!? Jan South Australia

Valma, Did your George & Ann Lees come to NSW, Australia? I have a friend here in town who I believe has Lees on her tree. Anne On 9/13/2010 4:22 PM, valma sharp wrote: > Would you please add the following to your digest. Thank you. > > Seeking family members or anyone who can help with information regarding Ann > Lees born c1836 at Tottenham., Middlesex. Father is named George. Ann married > Charles Hawkins in Berkshire in 1856 prior to coming to Australia in 1857. Have > found Maria, Frederick and Ann Lees born to George Lees and Ann Lees. Could > this Ann be Ann Warren who married a George Lees in 1822 and could she be the > correct family member? Not sure how to authenticate this. Any ideas please? > Valma > > > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

HI Jan, I suspect that the reason there are two copies of the marriage, and other marriages that you have found, is that the register where the couple signed their names is the original Parish Register entry. The other entry is perhaps the Bishop's Transcript copy As I understand it, Bishop's Transcripts were compiled, as an identical copy, by each church from it's parish registers periodically ready for the Bishops visitation. Not all BTs survive as they were just a copy made for the Bishop and not the original register. Whereas the Parish Registers should have been kept, though not all have survived over time. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<I have found the following record: Mary WASPER married John THOROUGHWOOD on 21 July 1822 at St Mary, Staines. She was noted as being from Longford, Middlesex, and John THOROUGHWOOD was noted as being from Saffron Walden in Essex. They were both sojourners in this parish, ie St Mary, Staines. Also, there are 2 original copies of the record of this marriage (both no. 72)...they are identical except that on one of them the witnesses and Mary have signed their names...Mary's is a bit wobbly but very clear, and the other one has the vicar filling in the whole thing. I am guessing that he had assumed no-one could write, and they put him straight and insisted on doing it themselves. Could this have happened? I just noticed there are several other duplicates, and now wonder if the vicar rewrote them thinking the ones with the original signatures were a bit messy!!?>>

Hi Anne Hard to say without the actual pages in hand They are a batch of 6 pages 2 marriages then a page of baptisms then three pages of marriages in reverse Its quite possible they are loose pages scanned out of order Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Nivard, are they the same register ? In one, the page numbers are printed > and in the other they are > handwritten and seem to be condensed and there is a page of baptisms in > between. It makes me wonder if they > are not two different volumes or just loose leaves. > > Anne > South Australia

Hi Jan The two reasons I have come across for copies are firstly when there is a smaller chapel or church satellite to a mother church and one has their own register which is then copied into the mother churches registers And second where both the original and the bishops transcripts exist and are both scanned Neither seems to be the case here as they are in the same register two pages apart Perhaps the Vicar or Clerk thought one or other had missed some entries out and duplicated them , its odd the pages 4, 5 & 6 are in reverse, did they fill them out for the BTs with the intention of removing those pages and not complete the task? Also strange is that they do not have the same entries on them I will be interested in others thoughts on it Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi, > > In Ancestry "London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921", > I have found the following record: Mary WASPER married John THOROUGHWOOD > on > 21 July 1822 at St Mary, Staines. She was noted as being from Longford, > Middlesex, and John THOROUGHWOOD was noted as being from Saffron Walden in > Essex. They were both sojourners in this parish, ie St Mary, Staines.

Hi Valma The obvious way to establish the maiden name of George's wife (and thus, most probably, Ann's mother) would be to buy the birth certificate of one of the later children. However, in this particular case, you may be able to circumvent this process (and the 9.25GBP cost) because it appears that George and his wife Ann spent a while in Clapham in the early years of their marriage. For some reason, for which we are eternally grateful, it was the practice in that parish (and a small number of others) to enter the mother's maiden name in the baptism registers. So, we have George LEES marrying Ann WARREN on 6 February 1822 at All Hallows, Tottenham, then George Edmund, their first son (we know this, because the register also gives this added extra) baptised in Clapham on 6 October of the same year, followed by John Thomas and William in 1823 and 1825. The mother's maiden name for all three is WARREN and the father's occupation is gardener. The move back to Tottenham seems to have happened between 1825 and 1827 when Maria was baptised at All Hallows, Tottenham, to be followed by lots more (Catherine, Frederick, Ann, Henry, Eliza, Sophia and Susannah). Details of all these events are available via Ancestry - let me know if you need me to send you images. Best wishes Caroline > Seeking family members or anyone who can help with information > regarding Ann > Lees born c1836 at Tottenham., Middlesex.  Father is named George.  Ann > married > Charles Hawkins in Berkshire in 1856 prior to coming to Australia in > 1857.  Have > found  Maria, Frederick and Ann Lees born to George Lees and Ann > Lees.   Could > this Ann  be Ann Warren who married a George Lees in 1822 and could she > be the > correct family member?  Not sure how to authenticate this.  Any ideas > please? > Valma > > > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Would you please add the following to your digest.  Thank you. Seeking family members or anyone who can help with information regarding Ann Lees born c1836 at Tottenham., Middlesex.  Father is named George.  Ann married Charles Hawkins in Berkshire in 1856 prior to coming to Australia in 1857.  Have found  Maria, Frederick and Ann Lees born to George Lees and Ann Lees.   Could this Ann  be Ann Warren who married a George Lees in 1822 and could she be the correct family member?  Not sure how to authenticate this.  Any ideas please?  Valma 

When you say it like that it all sounds so simple! I guess that is what must have happened in a great number of cases. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charani Sent: 12 September 2010 11:17 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Missing Admins/Wills Carolyn McCartney wrote: > In one particular case I have, I know the husband left the wife a > lot of money but maybe she went on a spending spree after he died! > As an example of what can happen: When my father died, he hadn't left a will and there's no admon either. My parents had a joint bank account, so that wasn't frozen. The mortgage had been paid off, so no worries there for my mother there either. She'd made sure it was in joint names. She simply took everything and carried on as normal. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Very interesting - I wish I had known that! Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charani Sent: 12 September 2010 11:19 To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Missing Admins/Wills Nivard Ovington wrote: > The standard wait was always four weeks and would expect that to have > doubled with the release of the Calendars on Ancestry, until they get over > the backlog it is bound to cause delays > > It must have increased demand many times over the norm Apparently you can apply to local regional offices as well as York. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message