Hi Sue, After Lord Hardwicke's marriage Act of 1753, which came into effect in 1754, everyone had to marry in a Church of England, regardless of their religious persuassion. The only exception to this rule were Jews and Quakers who were allowed to marry in their own synagogues and meeting houses. You say that the family appear to have been non conformists and perhaps when Cicely married Joseph Boardman they probably married, from the dates you give, sometime after this act was passed and would have been forced to marry in the CofE, if they married in England. Remember too that the IGI at familysearch is not an exhaustive resource, not all British parishes are included in the indexes there. It might be that they married in a parish which has not been put either onto the LMA records at the Ancestry site nor into the IGI online at familysearch. But there is still the possibility that Cicely was not the ladies first name and that she married under another name. Something I have just found on the Ancestry site and the LMA marriages and Banns 1754-1921 is a marriage for a Cicely Boardman to a Richard Horne at St. John Hackney in 1824 where she is shown as a minor and her father gave his consent to the marriage. One of the witnesses was a Joseph Boardman Jr. Could this be one of your Joseph Boardman's children marrying? I then found in the IGI the baptism of Cicely Boardman 6th Nov. 1803 St. Matthew Bethnal Green, born 9th Sept. 1803 father Joseph Boardman mother Martha. batch no. is C046983 which shows this to be an extracted record rather than a patron submission. Using that batch number, region as British isles, the fathers name as Joseph Boardman I found further baptisms for Joseph and Martha between 1801 and 1809, obviously at the same church because of using that batch number. These fall into the period that you believe Joseph Boardman's wife would have been Cicely. Could this mother be your Cicely under her proper name of Martha?? This is rather far fetched I know but might be something worth trying to puzzle out to see where it leads. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. >>> I don't have a lot of information unfortunately. Her Husband was a > Joseph Boardman from spitalfields london, and I have just found out that > he remarried a Lydia Williams parish st saviour southwark in 1808. > cicely?? died in 1803 and is buried at Bunhill Fields along with Joseph > in 1817. Also Lydia is buried at Bunhill Fields in 1814. Cicely is also > named as Grandmother on a Baptism for her granddaughter. But the > marriage between Joseph and Elizabeth Culmore in 1762 at St Matthews > Bethnal Green is the only marriage for a Joseph Boardman that I can find. > As they appear to be non conformists maybe I have got it all wrong and > there is a record out there somewhere for a Cicely, but I just cannot > find it anywhere.<<

Hello could anyone tell me if a Cicely I have in my family tree could possibly, hopefully pass for an Elizabeth? I have a record of the right year and place for a marriage as Elizabeth, but I know the wifes name was Cicely. Can't find any records for a Cicely at the time. Is this a possible chance please? Thanks Sue Australia

Hi Santa T, According to the details on the familysearch site the original parish registers for St. Andrew Hubbard 1538-1846 are held at the Guildhall Library London The Guildhall library nos. for these records are shown as 1278/1, 1279/3, 4550 the batch number on the IGI for this church is C023621 for baptisms. The LDS have a film of the above PRs and other material for those years mentioned. Film no. 374407 covers Bapts. Vestry Minutes, Marriages, Burials, Churchwardens Accounts, Overseers of the poor accounts & Poor Rates. All for varying years. From about 1538-1846 dependant on which of the above subjects you are looking at. If you can get to an LDS centre you could order a copy of this film and work your way through it, it costs very little to hire such films. You will find the address of your nearest LDS centre by going to the home page of the familysearch site at www.familysearch.org where there is a section for finding family history centres around the world but put in your area name of your country and see what results. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<> I have been looking at the images at Ancestry for St. Mary at Hill and marriages for the above period -- just the very one I need -- are missing. I know St. Mary at Hill merged with St. Andrew Hubbard in 1670 but these marriages are not in the records for that parish either (at least as shown on ancestry). Does anyone have any idea where the marriage records for these years might be?>>

Thanks Karina, I'll try that! Love Dad Jason Austin wrote: >Hello Beryl > >Which war was this? > >Jason > > > >Beryle wrote: > > > >>I have a question that may not be answered here but I am stuck. I have a relation who was a bombardier in the royal artillery when he married my husbands aunt in portsmouth uk I think he was from Vermont usa which would make him a American I can't find a enlistment in America. Can anyone advise me where to look his name was Walter Wright I only have a marriage certificate. Beryle Masom Australia. >>************************************** >>Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. >> >>List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >************************************** >Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > >List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Could it be that the lady was given the name Elizabeth at birth but had Cicely as a middle name. Maybe her parents added the name Cicely some time after the birth of Elizabeth had been registered, so the name cicely does not appear on the birth certificate or on her baptism. Perhaps there was already an Elizabeth in the family and so the child got called by her middle name of Cicely and that habit was carried on throughout her life. What was your Cicely's mother name, might that have been Elizabeth? Two Elizabeths in the house would have caused confusion and could be a reason for the younger one being called by a middle, or pet, name that name might then have stuck for the rest of her life. Many people use their middle name as their usual name, my father was one of them. Even his mother, who had chosen his first name for him in memory of a past family member, never used it but always used his middle name. No one outside of our immediate family knew of my father's first name. When he died, if any other member of our wider family had had to register his death, other than myself or my sisters, they would have used his middle name for him and the death certificate would have been incorrect. Could something like this have been the case with your cicely? Could it be that you, and other family members, never knew she had a different first name? Have you found the ladies birth certificate or baptism at all? Have you found her in any census? What evidence do you have that she was called Cicely? If the marriage you have found was after the start of Civil Registration, July 1837, then what does the certificate give for the father of the bride Elizabeth? Does that match with what you know of your Cicely's father? Or have you not got the copy of the marriage? If you give the rest of us a few details about your Cicely such as census references etc., where you have found her, and when that marriage of Elizabeth took place and where we might be able to help further in some way. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<> Hello could anyone tell me if a Cicely I have in my family tree could > possibly, hopefully pass for an Elizabeth? > I have a record of the right year and place for a marriage as Elizabeth, > but I know the wifes name was Cicely. > Can't find any records for a Cicely at the time. Is this a possible > chance please?>>

Hi Sue Only a small point and probably not relevant You say Cicily is named as Grandmother on a Baptism? Thats rather unusual , are you sure it says Grandmother and not Godmother? Which may open up the relationship to other members of the family Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >> Hi Jenny > I don't have a lot of information unfortunately. Her Husband was a > Joseph Boardman from spitalfields london, and I have just found out > that he remarried a Lydia Williams parish st saviour southwark in > 1808. cicely?? died in 1803 and is buried at Bunhill Fields along > with Joseph in 1817. Also Lydia is buried at Bunhill Fields in 1814. > Cicely is also named as Grandmother on a Baptism for her > granddaughter. But the marriage between Joseph and Elizabeth Culmore > in 1762 at St Matthews Bethnal Green is the only marriage for a Joseph > Boardman that I can find. As they appear to be non conformists maybe > I have got it all wrong and there is a record out there somewhere for > a Cicely, but I just cannot find it anywhere. > Thanks for your interest. > Sue

I have yet to pop all thoughts onto paper, I too saw this line and it is the most likely I think. I was starting to follow the leads from it when I was sidetracked with another line :) this is very addictive and convoluted stuff!!! Thank you for your help - I was initially put off because of the occupation of the father and the fact it does not have deceased after his name, which led me thinking he was still alive in 1881. I will try to tease out the links and see what comes of it all. Thanks again! -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2010 9:22 AM To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] Question about certificates and ARNOLD family Hi Shannon Whilst waiting for your details I had a look using that marriage as a starter Assuming the marriage is the right one, Emma and one of the witnesses Ellen SPITTLES are at the home of Joseph and his father Charles in Streatham (so theres no doubt these are the same people as on the marriage) In 1871 there is :- RG10; Piece: 41; Folio: 69; Page: 26 Kensington 8 Mary Place ???my ARNOLD widow 33 Pig Feeder Kensington William ARNOLD son 23 Fulham Emma ARNOLD dau 14 Kensington Henry ARNOLD son 11 Kensington Sarah ARNOLD dau 8 Kensington George ARNOLD son 6 Kensington Francis BARRATT nephew 14 Kensington =========================== Ancestry have the above head of household as "Henry" (which in fairness you might think it was in passing) but the age is in the female column and she is enumerated under relation to HOH as wife, which is then crossed out The age as 33 is either for a second wife for Thomas or its been misread by the enumerator and should be 53, this would marry up with the 1851 census where a Thomas has a wife Emily however the birthplace of the 1851 Emily is Herts Collar? ========================== I also found Deaths Dec 1870 Arnold Thomas 60 Kensington 1a 91 =========================== Going back to 1861 I found that number 8 Mary Place is a known missing part of the census =========================== Going back to 1851 1851 HO107 1471 307 30 5 Bone Sheds Thomas ARNOLD head mar 40 Pig Dealer Glos Paradise Emily ARNOLD wife mar 33 Herts Collar? Thomas ARNOLD son 11 scholar London Marylebone Eliza ARNOLD dau 9 scholar Middx Paddington Charles ARNOLD son 7 scholar Middx Paddington William ARNOLD son 3 Middx Paddington =========================== And Baptism St Marylebone Westminster 1840 19 January Thomas son of Thomas & Emily Ann ARNOLD 20 Park St Fish Monger Born 15th Dec 1839 Baptisms St James Paddington Westminster All May 10 Eliza Maria born Aug 11 1842 Charles born May 4 1844 Emily born Feb 23 1846 All children of Thomas & Emily ARNOLD Westbourne Cottages Labourer Baptism Holy Trinity Paddington Westminster 1848 July 23 William son of Thomas Charles & Emily ARNOLD 40 Bridge Row Labourer Burial St Mary Paddigton Green Westminster 1849 Emily ARNOLD Bridge Row Paddington Aug 23 3 years Any of this match any data you have Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > HI, > > > I have found a marriage record Emma Arnold / Joseph Hammond in > ancestry under the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 > > If I order a marriage certificate from records office would there > likely be any different information on it? > > I thought I had Emma Arnold sorted to census records, but having > ordered the mother's death certificate, I think I have the wrong > family. > > I know I have it correct from 1881 census. Cannot seem to match things > up nicely with the earlier 1871 or 1861 census. > > I like the look of Kensington born and still need to order that birth > cert - just hope it is correct having just paid and anxiously waited > for the arrival of one that seems unrelated :) > > Thanks > Shannon ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The parish book of St. Mary at Hill appears to have been reproduced in its entirety on Ancestry UK. It appears to be rather tightly bound into a greenish volume, complete with a leather strap to close it. The pages themselves are not numbered. Christenings go from image 1-106, and cover 1558-1803. Marriages of 1558-1741 start on image 107 and end abruptly at image 130 in 1741. Images 131-135 are christenings from 1805-1812. From 136 to the end are burials. I have been through the volume page by page and the missing marriages do not appear. It may be that there is an addendum to to this book that Ancestry simply didn't pick up. So I am very curious as to where the records for these marriages went, and somewhat dubious that they will appear on, e.g., a Family History library microfilm. As I mentioned earlier, they also do not appear in St. Andrew Hubbard with which St. Mary merged in 1690. So now I guess I am asking: what would be the reason these marriages were not recorded in the original parish book; where might they be recorded, and how would we know that sources that purport to contain St. Mary at Hill registers have actually included these "missing marriages" wherever they might have been found? [The marriage I am looking for is not on Britishorigins, sadly.] Santa T.

From among the tree tops... wrote: > Cecily, hmmmmm in my research I found two of these little sweet > hearts. One was known as Maud for no apparent reason and the other > Jane, her middle name.... in my opinion Cecelia Elizabeth has a > nice ring to it - > > can you chase info that cannot be altered, ie ages? People lied about their ages then as they do now :)) I've no doubt many researchers have discovered that someone supposedly one age actually turn out to be older, sometimes much older. Sometimes they claim to be older than they actually were. My great great uncle lied about his age and claimed he was older than he actually was. I think that was because his wife was much older than him. Dear Cousin Albert's DoB on his death certificate made him four years younger than he actually was, but his age (along with a lot of other information about him) tended to wander like a crooked path! To be fair, back then, people often didn't know exactly how old they were. They weren't asked for their DoB as frequently as we are today. There's no doubt there was a degree of manipulation by both men and women though. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Hello Beryl Which war was this? Jason Beryle wrote: >I have a question that may not be answered here but I am stuck. I have a relation who was a bombardier in the royal artillery when he married my husbands aunt in portsmouth uk I think he was from Vermont usa which would make him a American I can't find a enlistment in America. Can anyone advise me where to look his name was Walter Wright I only have a marriage certificate. Beryle Masom Australia. >************************************** >Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > >List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:46:37 +0800 Raymond Devereux <rainwater2008@bigpond.com> wrote: Hello Raymond, > Hello could anyone tell me if a Cicely I have in my family tree > could possibly, hopefully pass for an Elizabeth? People may call themselves whatever they wish. There's no law against it, per se. Also, pet names for people can sometimes bear no relation to the person's _real_ name. For example, two of my friends are Harry and Mark, known as Bo and But, respectively. However, you need to find some evidence before you can safely say whether Cicely is Elizabeth. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" Now I found you out, I don't think you're so smart Who Are You - Black Sabbath

Raymond Devereux wrote: > Hello could anyone tell me if a Cicely I have in my family tree could > possibly, hopefully pass for an Elizabeth? Cicely (or Cecily/Cecilia) isn't an alternative for Elizabeth. However, anyone can call themselves what they like so long as it isn't for fraudulent purposes/reasons. Pet names don't have to be diminutives of the actual name. Maybe she was called "sis" (as in sister) and it graduated to Cicely, or maybe she was really Cicely. Perhaps it was her middle name. Despite what many people like to believe, not all couples did actually marry back then. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

Beryle wrote: > I have a question that may not be answered here but I am stuck. I > have a relation who was a bombardier in the royal artillery when he > married my husbands aunt in portsmouth uk I think he was from > Vermont usa which would make him a American I can't find a > enlistment in America. Can anyone advise me where to look his name > was Walter Wright I only have a marriage certificate. He may have enlisted in the UK. You could try the National Archives or the London Gazette. He'd be mentioned in the latter if he was Mentioned in Dispatches and/or received a medal and/or was promoted even if temporarily. Otherwise it would be the MoD (or whatever they are calling themselves this year)> WWII service records are closed to all bar the service (wo)man, or their immediate relatives if deceased. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk http://www.savethegurkhas.co.uk/

St Mary at Hill marriages 1754-1837 are indexed on the Origins ppv site Regards Cliff Webb

Hi Shannon Whilst waiting for your details I had a look using that marriage as a starter Assuming the marriage is the right one, Emma and one of the witnesses Ellen SPITTLES are at the home of Joseph and his father Charles in Streatham (so theres no doubt these are the same people as on the marriage) In 1871 there is :- RG10; Piece: 41; Folio: 69; Page: 26 Kensington 8 Mary Place ???my ARNOLD widow 33 Pig Feeder Kensington William ARNOLD son 23 Fulham Emma ARNOLD dau 14 Kensington Henry ARNOLD son 11 Kensington Sarah ARNOLD dau 8 Kensington George ARNOLD son 6 Kensington Francis BARRATT nephew 14 Kensington =========================== Ancestry have the above head of household as "Henry" (which in fairness you might think it was in passing) but the age is in the female column and she is enumerated under relation to HOH as wife, which is then crossed out The age as 33 is either for a second wife for Thomas or its been misread by the enumerator and should be 53, this would marry up with the 1851 census where a Thomas has a wife Emily however the birthplace of the 1851 Emily is Herts Collar? ========================== I also found Deaths Dec 1870 Arnold Thomas 60 Kensington 1a 91 =========================== Going back to 1861 I found that number 8 Mary Place is a known missing part of the census =========================== Going back to 1851 1851 HO107 1471 307 30 5 Bone Sheds Thomas ARNOLD head mar 40 Pig Dealer Glos Paradise Emily ARNOLD wife mar 33 Herts Collar? Thomas ARNOLD son 11 scholar London Marylebone Eliza ARNOLD dau 9 scholar Middx Paddington Charles ARNOLD son 7 scholar Middx Paddington William ARNOLD son 3 Middx Paddington =========================== And Baptism St Marylebone Westminster 1840 19 January Thomas son of Thomas & Emily Ann ARNOLD 20 Park St Fish Monger Born 15th Dec 1839 Baptisms St James Paddington Westminster All May 10 Eliza Maria born Aug 11 1842 Charles born May 4 1844 Emily born Feb 23 1846 All children of Thomas & Emily ARNOLD Westbourne Cottages Labourer Baptism Holy Trinity Paddington Westminster 1848 July 23 William son of Thomas Charles & Emily ARNOLD 40 Bridge Row Labourer Burial St Mary Paddigton Green Westminster 1849 Emily ARNOLD Bridge Row Paddington Aug 23 3 years Any of this match any data you have Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > HI, > > > I have found a marriage record Emma Arnold / Joseph Hammond in ancestry > under the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 > > If I order a marriage certificate from records office would there likely > be > any different information on it? > > I thought I had Emma Arnold sorted to census records, but having ordered > the > mother's death certificate, I think I have the wrong family. > > I know I have it correct from 1881 census. Cannot seem to match things up > nicely with the earlier 1871 or 1861 census. > > I like the look of Kensington born and still need to order that birth > cert - > just hope it is correct having just paid and anxiously waited for the > arrival of one that seems unrelated :) > > Thanks > Shannon

I have been looking at the images at Ancestry for St. Mary at Hill and marriages for the above period -- just the very one I need -- are missing. I know St. Mary at Hill merged with St. Andrew Hubbard in 1670 but these marriages are not in the records for that parish either (at least as shown on ancestry). Does anyone have any idea where the marriage records for these years might be? Santa T.

I did think of that but as at the moment I am concentrating on finding more about Mary Ann, who was my 3g grandmother's sister, I will leave this for now. Thanks again for your interest. Jan -----Original Message----- From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan Hearn Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 4:09 PM To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall. Thanks Dear Jan, I suppose Ann couldn't have been his second wife? Jan

There would be no further information on the marriage certificate. Census ages can vary greatly. Anne South Australia Shannon wrote: > HI, > > > I have found a marriage record Emma Arnold / Joseph Hammond in ancestry > under the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 > > If I order a marriage certificate from records office would there likely be > any different information on it? > > I thought I had Emma Arnold sorted to census records, but having ordered the > mother's death certificate, I think I have the wrong family. > > I know I have it correct from 1881 census. Cannot seem to match things up > nicely with the earlier 1871 or 1861 census. > > I like the look of Kensington born and still need to order that birth cert - > just hope it is correct having just paid and anxiously waited for the > arrival of one that seems unrelated :) > > Thanks > Shannon

HI, I have found a marriage record Emma Arnold / Joseph Hammond in ancestry under the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 If I order a marriage certificate from records office would there likely be any different information on it? I thought I had Emma Arnold sorted to census records, but having ordered the mother's death certificate, I think I have the wrong family. I know I have it correct from 1881 census. Cannot seem to match things up nicely with the earlier 1871 or 1861 census. I like the look of Kensington born and still need to order that birth cert - just hope it is correct having just paid and anxiously waited for the arrival of one that seems unrelated :) Thanks Shannon

Dear Jan, I suppose Ann couldn't have been his second wife? Jan Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan" <jangmc@bigpond.com> To: <middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall. Thanks > Hi Jan, > > Thanks, somehow I hadn't seen that one, but after hours of census searching > I can eliminate him from my enquiries, his wife had been Ann, born in > Somerset, according to the 1861. > > There are other unconfirmed possibilities for Mary Ann, usually Thurgood, > who is the one I'm interested in, including the workhouse in Saffron Walden > in 1861, place of birth unknown. She is likely to be the one who died as > Thurgood, in Saffron Walden in 1869. Probably not much use to buy the > certificate, as if they didn't know her birthplace when she was alive, they > presumably didn't when she was dead. > > Thank you to all who contributed answers to my questions. > > Jan > > -----Original Message----- > From: middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:middlesex_county_uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan > Hearn > Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:45 AM > To: middlesex_county_uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MDX] THOROUGHWOOD brick wall > > Jan, > I guess you've also seen the 1881 census entry for John THOROUGHOOD > (as transcribed to Familysearch) 79,born South Aningfield, Essex ( > Hanningfield) who was a retired shopkeeper living in High St Great > Wakering, Essex. Piece 1772 Folio 9 page 12. > > Jan > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Middlesex_County_UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >