Absolutely, the practice of leaving clothes at an abode so they could say they were of that parish was a common occurrence often monetary. That is why it is not uncommon to see the married couple having the same address. This practice continued right through the 20th. century. Were you looking for help tracing them?   Paul Eggleton ________________________________ From: Jenny De Angelis <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [MDX] MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 163 My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where the Olympics are being held at the moment,  but they both lived in Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England.  My grandfather was a merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down to marry there.  They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry in the parish.  Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they could marry. I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<This particularly applies to marriages My grandmother married in a church away from her parish because she liked the look of the church and it had steps she could walk down in her wedding gown! Steven Hollis Senior Metallurgist>> ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This particularly applies to marriages My grandmother married in a church away from her parish because she liked the look of the church and it had steps she could walk down in her wedding gown! Steven Hollis Senior Metallurgist 1 Sleat Rd, Applecross, Western Australia 6153 M +61 439 951 802 E [email protected] W www.processminerals.com.au Process Minerals International is a subsidiary of Mineral Resources -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barry1936 Sent: Friday, 27 July 2012 10:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] MIDDLESEX_COUNTY_UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 163 Don't forget that central London parishes were tiny and people frequently hopped across boundaries depending upon which church they preferred at different times. In a similar situation to you I started browsing parishes in an ever increasing circle from the 'home' parish and found not only ancestors baptised or married in a nearby parish but family links which led on to other ancestors. A GG grandfather who had two children baptised in his home parish and two just down the road in the next parish - perhaps he fell out with the first vicar! A slow tortuous journey but it produced results. You need a diagram of the London parishes which is somewhere on Genuki. Barry On 27 Jul 2012, at 13:30, [email protected] wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:01:06 -0400 (EDT) > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MDX] Rawlins (previously LMA) > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hello Barry, > > > I had missed the number of baptisms at the church on this date!! What a fascinating piece of information! Thank you so much for pointing this and other important information out to me. I have the marriage record for Samuel Rawlins and Mary Snell. Samuel was a widower and is listed as a laborer on the marriage record. Mary's father, THomas Snell was an "agriculturer" laborer. > > > I have also found an earlier record for a Richard Rawlins from St Luke's Old Street who was the son of a Samuell Rawlins. Lots of pieces of information, but not the links. > > > I so appreciate the your guidance. I am encouraged to work on finding more answers. > > > Regards, > > > Bev W > ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT PLEASE READ - Email Disclaimer -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email message (including any attachments) is intended only for the addressee(s) and is to be kept strictly confidential unless otherwise agreed in writing with its sender. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email (or any of its attachments) by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Nivard I plan to do that. I'm enjoying the journey and will post a bit more when I get stuck...I get easily sidetracked by interesting sites LOL cheers Sheila Hi Sheila The site I posted from familysearch is not so much a catalogue of free resources but more a sign post of where to find them Its often knowing where to find records with London research as its such a concentrated area All pay sites have their value, some more than others but much will depend upon your needs and requirements There is a lot of information available for free but some you have to resort to paying for If you get stuck the best thing to do is to post to the list as almost certainly someone will have been there before you and will be able to point you in the right direction if not help directly Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 27/07/2012 11:15, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > Thanks Nivard. > I'll have to check it out later although on quickly looking all the sites > I > checked out wanted me to pay to see results. As I'm still very new to > this I'm sure there are ways and means of getting some info free > initially....I just need to work out how LOL. I have already paid out a > subscription to Genes Reunited so am reluctant to spend more just yet. > > I am sure also that once I look into it further there will be some > fascinating information that will really helpful. Once again, thank you > for > sharing > > cheers Sheila Longden nee Tait (born in Edmonton London but living in > Australia) ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Nivard. I'll have to check it out later although on quickly looking all the sites I checked out wanted me to pay to see results. As I'm still very new to this I'm sure there are ways and means of getting some info free initially....I just need to work out how LOL. I have already paid out a subscription to Genes Reunited so am reluctant to spend more just yet. I am sure also that once I look into it further there will be some fascinating information that will really helpful. Once again, thank you for sharing cheers Sheila Longden nee Tait (born in Edmonton London but living in Australia) Subject: [MDX] London Ancestors guide from familysearch Hi all As its quiet I thought some might be interested in this free guide from familysearch https://familysearch.org/blog/free-guide-london-ancestors/ Not made my way through it as yet but it looks interesting -- Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) **************************************

Thanks so much. It is really interesting. Billie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: Friday, 27 July 2012 7:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [MDX] London Ancestors guide from familysearch Hi all As its quiet I thought some might be interested in this free guide from familysearch https://familysearch.org/blog/free-guide-london-ancestors/ Not made my way through it as yet but it looks interesting -- Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5157 - Release Date: 07/26/12

Don't forget that central London parishes were tiny and people frequently hopped across boundaries depending upon which church they preferred at different times. In a similar situation to you I started browsing parishes in an ever increasing circle from the 'home' parish and found not only ancestors baptised or married in a nearby parish but family links which led on to other ancestors. A GG grandfather who had two children baptised in his home parish and two just down the road in the next parish - perhaps he fell out with the first vicar! A slow tortuous journey but it produced results. You need a diagram of the London parishes which is somewhere on Genuki. Barry On 27 Jul 2012, at 13:30, [email protected] wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:01:06 -0400 (EDT) > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MDX] Rawlins (previously LMA) > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hello Barry, > > > I had missed the number of baptisms at the church on this date!! What a fascinating piece of information! Thank you so much for pointing this and other important information out to me. I have the marriage record for Samuel Rawlins and Mary Snell. Samuel was a widower and is listed as a laborer on the marriage record. Mary's father, THomas Snell was an "agriculturer" laborer. > > > I have also found an earlier record for a Richard Rawlins from St Luke's Old Street who was the son of a Samuell Rawlins. Lots of pieces of information, but not the links. > > > I so appreciate the your guidance. I am encouraged to work on finding more answers. > > > Regards, > > > Bev W >

HI Stephen I found that family of frederick Grant with the son Frederick in the 1841 census, the wife of Frederick senior is called Frances and he is a Solicitor. The son Frederick was born around 1835 and is aged 6 in the 1841 census. The family are in the Hamlet of Brompton Kensington and the ref is HO107 piece 690 Book/ED10 folio 3 page 1 I have pointed out this 1841 entry to show you that there was another Grant family with a son Frederick and that matches the details of the father on the marriage you have. You need to be aware of this family if you haven't come across them in the census before. Other children in this family are Charles, Robert & Fanny. Are you sure you have the right marriage of your Frederick Grant in 1863 Yorkshire? You haven't got your wires crossed have you? Maybe the baptism you have found is not for your Frederick but the marriage is? In the 1871 census I found what I think must be your Frederick Grant with wife Emma living at Rochester Kent. Frederick's occupation is as a Mate born Middlesex London. His wife Emma was born in Kent so why would they marry in Yorkshire? Ancesty have indexed Frederick's birth place as Longham Middlesex but on the image it is shown as Middlesex, London. I have put the ref for this entry below to make it easy for you to find it if you don't already have it. I looked on FreeBMD for the 1863 marriage you mentioned for Frederick in Yorkshire. I found the marriage in the Dec. Qtr. 1863 and the names of the two females on the same page are Ann Eliza Goudlass & Mary Ann Norton, not sign of an Emma on that page of marriages. On FreeBMD I did find a more suitable marriage Dec. Qtr. 1869 Medway registration district volume 2a page 684 where an Emma Tull is shown on the same page. Medway is an area of Kent so this really does fit with Emma's home county and where they were in 1871. I think in the 1871 that you might find Emma's parents are living in the same building as the Grants because there is just a single / between the Grant household and that of the Tull household indicating the same house different households within it. That household begins with Robert Tull and wife Sarah A. the ref. for this 1871 census entry is RG10 piece 903 folio 30 page 10. Maybe Frederick Grant was not born in the Westminster area but elsewhere in the country but his parents may have either moved into Westminster just prior to his baptism there or else they were living elsewhere but chose to have him baptised at Westminster. Maybe one or other of the parents had family living in the Westminster area or had lived there for a time their self and chose to have their son baptised there. I hope something here helps you to get re-started on your research of Frederick Grant's family. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<I too have been frustrated with the records with the online records from the archive. Here's what I'm looking for. My gr gr gr grandfather, Frederick Grant, was born in December 1839. His baptism is recorded a month later in St. John Evangelist, Smith Square. His parents were John & Anne Grant. John was a messenger for the Exchequer. As far as I can tell, there was no registered birth record. I would love to be shown that I was wrong! I can't find them in the 1841 or 1851 censes. In 1855 he joins the Royal Marines in Woolwich. His records after this are good - military, census and marriage records. In 1863 he marries in Yorkshire. The marriage record states that his father was Frederick Grant, lawyer. His military records state that his mother was Anne Grant. One of his military records states that he had been training to be a grocer. Not all of St. John's records are online at ancestry or at findmypast.>>

On 27 Jul 2012, at 13:36, Seemark wrote: > Hello Ann, I wonder if you can help me - I figured as list administrator > you'd know the answer :) > > This is not specifically directed at the list it's from a personal > perspective. I was always under the impression that we didn't openly ask > for info regarding people who may still be alive and that there's a "sort > of" hundred year rule. Is that one hundred years from their birth, or from > their death? I'm thinking it's their death cos if it's from their birth > they may still have living relatives who would be upset at the information > being made available. Would very much appreciate your input on this. > > Thanks very much. > Cyndi in Leighton Buzzard, Beds UK Hello Cyndi As your message has gone to the List I'll answer likewise as the answer may be useful to others too. I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about this matter. There is no hard and fast hundred year rule imposed by Rootsweb. It is up to each List Admin to run things as they see fit, whilst always observing and keeping within the framework of the Rootsweb Community Guidelines and the Acceptable Use Policy. The Community Guidelines simply say: Quote: " Don't include identifiable information about living people without their direct consent, or, in the case of minors, the consent of their parent or guardian. This includes, but is not limited to, a person's full name, location or contact information." Unquote. As different List Admins may have different 'rules' it is wise to familiarise oneself with these for each List one belongs to, if contemplating posting anything that may, possibly, invade the privacy of living individuals. On joining the Middlesex List everyone is sent a 'welcome message' giving guidelines for using the forum. On the topic of living persons this is what the message says: Quote " LIVING PERSONS The most important thing to remember is not to post anything that is uniquely identifiable to any living individual. We must always bear in mind that however well intentioned the enquirer and helpers may be, the individual who is being sought may not actually wish their whereabouts known. We are not in a position to judge. So, for example, it would be acceptable to ask how one might go about finding a living individual, and it is acceptable to reply giving general guidance. It is not acceptable to reply giving information that will identify that person's whereabouts, or other personal information that they may not want made public. " Unquote. The Guidelines contained within the welcome message were posted to the List for all existing members back in 2009, and to all who have joined or rejoined since then. It's in the archives at: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/middlesex_county_uk/2009-06/1245072962. I hope this helps but if there is any aspect not covered here please contact me Off List and I'll do my best to help. Best wishes. Ann Middx Admin

Hi Therese, I have replied at length off line with some hints on how to beat the LMA! Barry1936 On 27 Jul 2012, at 12:50, [email protected] wrote: > From: "Therese Rich" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MDX] Rawlins (previously LMA) > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Barry, > I read the detailed email to Bev and after I decided to write you. I have > church Records from Whitechapel with a gg-grandfather listed with two > different wives a one on Queen St 1789 and then another in (At this pointe I > am fed up with the horrible Lay out of LAMA. I have never had trouble in 12 > years getting records before 1837 and no matter who answers in the Office > all they can tell me about is the Birth, Marriage and Death records AFTER > 1837. I don't think they even read the request.LMA is the biggest Mess on > the net. > Fed up in US > Thanks for listening to me > Therese

Jenny De Angelis wrote: 8>< To add to what Jenny's said. > In the 1871 census I found what I think must be your Frederick > Grant with wife Emma living at Rochester Kent. Frederick's > occupation is as a Mate born Middlesex London. His wife Emma was > born in Kent so why would they marry in Yorkshire? 8>< A Mate living in Rochester would make sense since a neighbouring Medway town, Chatham, had (and still has) a large dockyard. Rochester also fronts onto the River Medway. > On FreeBMD I did find a more suitable marriage Dec. Qtr. 1869 > Medway registration district volume 2a page 684 where an Emma Tull > is shown on the same page. Medway is an area of Kent so this > really does fit with Emma's home county and where they were in > 1871. The Medway CMBs are available online, free of charge, at http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/ These are NOT indexed so it can take a bit of hunting to find the parish, then the church. www.cardinalpoints.org.uk/ may help identify which church you want. It is a work in progress though. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Seemark wrote: > Hello Ann, I wonder if you can help me - I figured as list administrator > you'd know the answer :) Not Ann Obviously) but I am a list admin :)) This is what Rootsweb say: <quote> Don't include identifiable information about living people without their direct consent, or, in the case of minors, the consent of their parent or guardian. This includes (but is not limited to) a person's full name, location or contact information. </quote> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/rootsweb/community_guidelines.html On my lists I don't generally allow anything post WWI but Ann will let you know what her cut off date is. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hello Ann, I wonder if you can help me - I figured as list administrator you'd know the answer :) This is not specifically directed at the list it's from a personal perspective. I was always under the impression that we didn't openly ask for info regarding people who may still be alive and that there's a "sort of" hundred year rule. Is that one hundred years from their birth, or from their death? I'm thinking it's their death cos if it's from their birth they may still have living relatives who would be upset at the information being made available. Would very much appreciate your input on this. Thanks very much Cyndi in Leighton Buzzard, Beds UK So much to learn, so little time

Don't we all (get sidetracked :-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 27/07/2012 12:38, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > Thanks Nivard I plan to do that. I'm enjoying the journey and will post a > bit more when I get stuck...I get easily sidetracked by interesting sites > LOL > > cheers Sheila

Hi Sheila The site I posted from familysearch is not so much a catalogue of free resources but more a sign post of where to find them Its often knowing where to find records with London research as its such a concentrated area All pay sites have their value, some more than others but much will depend upon your needs and requirements There is a lot of information available for free but some you have to resort to paying for If you get stuck the best thing to do is to post to the list as almost certainly someone will have been there before you and will be able to point you in the right direction if not help directly Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 27/07/2012 11:15, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > Thanks Nivard. > I'll have to check it out later although on quickly looking all the sites I > checked out wanted me to pay to see results. As I'm still very new to > this I'm sure there are ways and means of getting some info free > initially....I just need to work out how LOL. I have already paid out a > subscription to Genes Reunited so am reluctant to spend more just yet. > > I am sure also that once I look into it further there will be some > fascinating information that will really helpful. Once again, thank you for > sharing > > cheers Sheila Longden nee Tait (born in Edmonton London but living in > Australia)

Stphen, There is a Frederick Grant age one in the 1841 Census in Robinson's Place Lambeth Surrey. He is in the household of George & Jane Underwood and their 3 children. Could he be with an Uncle / Aunt? Regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Pegler" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 12:08 AM Subject: [MDX] advice/help appreciated on deadend >I too have been frustrated with the records with the online records from >the archive. > > > Here's what I'm looking for. > > > My gr gr gr grandfather, Frederick Grant, was born in December 1839. His > baptism is recorded a month later in St. John Evangelist, Smith Square. > His parents were John & Anne Grant. John was a messenger for the > Exchequer. > > > As far as I can tell, there was no registered birth record. I would love > to be shown that I was wrong! > > > I can't find them in the 1841 or 1851 censes. > > > In 1855 he joins the Royal Marines in Woolwich. His records after this > are good - military, census and marriage records. > > > In 1863 he marries in Yorkshire. The marriage record states that his > father was Frederick Grant, lawyer. > > > His military records state that his mother was Anne Grant. > > > One of his military records states that he had been training to be a > grocer. > > > Not all of St. John's records are online at ancestry or at findmypast. > > > Don't know where to turn next. > > > any help appreciated > > > Stephen Pegler > check out my blog! > http://peglermusings.blogspot.com/ > > I shall rise from the dead.... I shall see the Son of God, the Sun of > Glory, and shine myself as that sun shines. I shall be united to the > Ancient of Days, to God Himself, who had no morning, never began.... No > man ever saw God and lived. And yet, I shall not live till I see God; and > when I have seen him, I shall never die. John Donne > > > > > > > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in > CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank Nivard. That looks like a major source for us. Cheers Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nivard Ovington" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 10:12 AM Subject: [MDX] London Ancestors guide from familysearch > Hi all > > As its quiet I thought some might be interested in this free guide from > familysearch > > https://familysearch.org/blog/free-guide-london-ancestors/ > > Not made my way through it as yet but it looks interesting > > -- > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in > CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi all As its quiet I thought some might be interested in this free guide from familysearch https://familysearch.org/blog/free-guide-london-ancestors/ Not made my way through it as yet but it looks interesting -- Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Again, many thanks Nivard. Very interesting!!! Bev W -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> To: middlesex_county_uk <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 7:51 am Subject: Re: [MDX] London Ancestors guide from familysearch Don't we all (get sidetracked :-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 27/07/2012 12:38, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > Thanks Nivard I plan to do that. I'm enjoying the journey and will post a > bit more when I get stuck...I get easily sidetracked by interesting sites > LOL > > cheers Sheila ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Barry, I had missed the number of baptisms at the church on this date!! What a fascinating piece of information! Thank you so much for pointing this and other important information out to me. I have the marriage record for Samuel Rawlins and Mary Snell. Samuel was a widower and is listed as a laborer on the marriage record. Mary's father, THomas Snell was an "agriculturer" laborer. I have also found an earlier record for a Richard Rawlins from St Luke's Old Street who was the son of a Samuell Rawlins. Lots of pieces of information, but not the links. I so appreciate the your guidance. I am encouraged to work on finding more answers. Regards, Bev W -----Original Message----- From: Barry1936 <[email protected]> To: middlesex_county_uk <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [MDX] Rawlins (previously LMA) Hi Bev, I don't have any answers for you but a few points which may help you to focus your research. >From the detail you have provided, I guess you have found the children's baptisms by browsing the images on Ancestry. Did you also notice there were 432 baptisms on the same day, 26th October 1845? Family after family which suggests the vicar was an evangelist and had rounded up all the 'defectors' in his parish! So it may be that the Rawlins's parents were not churchgoers and will not be found in any registers, anywhere. It is also reasonable to assume that there were no earlier children or they would have been included in that mass baptism and especially as it would have been normal to call the first born son after his father. From that it is reasonable to assume that if (!) the parents married, it was in 1838. So they should just have been caught in the 1837 Act. Between 1837 & 1839, the only Samuel Rawlins possibly married to a Mary (Snell) was in St Germans, Cornwall, which seems unlikely for your Samuel but you could send for the certificate to eliminate him (or! ask someone on the Cornwall list to do a parish register search for you?). Unlike births, marriage registers after July 1837 should be complete (reporting them to the Registrar was automatic), but the GRO index may contain errors. The entries in the church register were copied and sent to the Superintendent Registrar and then copied again to Somerset House where they were copied again to the index - all handwritten. Then they were copied again by FreeBMD transcribers so it is inevitable that errors occurred somewhere along that chain. Have you tried doing a BMD search using wild cards? Free BMD is not quite complete either. There are even more transcription errors with census records so try 1841 again, with wild cards. Otherwise it seems that the marriage took place outside England & Wales - or, if they did originate from Ireland, were they Catholics? But the marriage would still have been recorded at the GRO if it was in England & Wales. Because a birth has not been recorded in BMD's that does not mean the child was not born in England, because at that time it was not compulsory to report the birth - it was up to the Registrar to find them. You may have already noticed that St Barnabas was founded in 1826 as a daughter church of St Luke, Old St, which makes the Rawlins you have found in that parish more than the just "significant" that you suggested. They are certainly worth exploring further to see where the trail leads you to or from. Also, the only registers available for St Barnabas are from 1842. It may be the earlier registers have not survived (the church was heavily bombed in 1940) or, more likely, all BMD's were performed at St Luke's; making their records worth further research. Ancestry only appear to have digitised the registers up to 1812 but the LMA catalogue says they have the registers much later than that and on microfilm - but the microfilms have been withdrawn because of the Ancestry digitisation. Only the LMA can explain that one! The other records which may help are the poor rate records, electoral registers and workhouse records. Most of these are at the LMA, some have been indexed on Ancestry and a few are held at local history libraries such as Camden and Islington. Although the "working poor", as you describe Samuel, would be unlikely to appear in the poor rate and electoral registers, there were exceptions depending upon the particular circumstances. A surprisingly large number of people from a wide range of backgrounds went in & out of the workhouse, or received 'out relief', for short periods - temporary layoffs, pregnancy and illness being the most common. The Settlement Examination record often contained valuable information about the applicants background. Like you Bev, I get frustrated with the LMA web site. It is difficult to find, difficult to navigate and their catalogue does contain some errors, mainly due to a lack of clear identity of a record. Awarding the digitisation and indexing to Ancestry has added to the problem because of both the transcription and identification errors they have made. As I said at the start, I don't have any answers but I hope the above will be of some help in navigating your difficult task. Barry1936 On 26 Jul 2012, at 13:26, [email protected] wrote: > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 06:38:29 -0400 (EDT) > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MDX] London Metropolitan Archives > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hello again, > > > As I have posted, I am searching for information about the parents of my great great grandfather, Samuel Rawlins, who was baptized with is brother Alfred and sister Mary at St. Barnabas Finsbury in October of 1845. Samuel's birthdate was given as May 3, 1839, his brother was born in 1842 and his sister born in 1844. Samuel's father was also a Samuel Rawlins whose trade was "watch finisher". His mother's name was Mary (?). They were living on Rahere Street at the time of the baptism. > > > I have searched all online English Census records for these people to no avail. There do not seem to be records in the BMD for any of the children mentioned. I have often thought that these may not have been the only children in the family. > > The one US census record found for my ancestor (1880) states that Samuel Rawlins (Jr) was born in Ireland and his parents were born in England. Where in England is the question!! Samuel Jr left Ireland in 1867 for the US. He worked in the shipping trade for several years in the States before establishing permanent residence in 1875, Samuel obviously returned to England sometime between 1871 and 1872 because there is another passenger record for him leaving Liverpool again in 1872 with a watch maker, James Marshea and his sister, Ellen, from Wolverhampton. > > Needless to say, James Marshea was the son of a Jeweler/Watchmaker, James D. Marshea who was born in Birmingham but grew up in Clerkenwell. James D. Marshea appears to have been a contemporary of my Samuel Rawlins Sr. and the two may have worked together. The Marshea family also traveled from town to town but can be tracked in the census records. > > It appears that my Rawlins ancestors traveled to Ireland and back again. I have examined all of the English online directories on Ancestry and on other online sites and find no trace of my family. I have also searched both FMP and Ancestry for birth, marriage and death records for Samuel Sr. and wife Mary. I spent four years working with a researcher in Ireland trying to find a "trace" of these folks. I do think I found a mention of my great great grandfather, Samuel jr. working in Belfast in 1858 in a pawn shop in article found on the new British Newspaper Archive site. Again, I have found no direct information on the family in the Irish sites online. I should say, I have ordered quite a few Birth, Marriage and Death records in hopes of making a connection. > > > I believe that my ancestor, Samuel Rawlins Sr., was one of the "working' poor in the 19th century. Owning no property, working for others, and probably traveling around quite a bit makes him difficult to track. One thing we do know, is that he waited to baptize his children in Islington. > > There are other Rawlins families in Middlesex and a few earlier records at St. Lukes Old Street for them which might have significance. I am just not certain. Perhaps there are other resources that can be checked at the LMA that would connect the dots? > > Information for this line of my family has come in bits and pieces. I am hopeful that one day, I will discover just who Samuel and Mary Rawlins were. > > > Thanks for listening again.... > > Bev W > ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Barry, I read the detailed email to Bev and after I decided to write you. I have church Records from Whitechapel with a gg-grandfather listed with two different wives a one on Queen St 1789 and then another in (At this pointe I am fed up with the horrible Lay out of LAMA. I have never had trouble in 12 years getting records before 1837 and no matter who answers in the Office all they can tell me about is the Birth, Marriage and Death records AFTER 1837. I don't think they even read the request.LMA is the biggest Mess on the net. Fed up in US Thanks for listening to me Therese Like you Bev, I get frustrated with the LMA web site. It is difficult to find, difficult to navigate and their catalogue does contain some errors, mainly due to a lack of clear identity of a record. Awarding the digitisation and indexing to Ancestry has added to the problem because of both the transcription and identification errors they have made. As I said at the start, I don't have any answers but I hope the above will be of some help in navigating your difficult task. Barry1936 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barry1936 Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 1:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] Rawlins (previously LMA) Hi Bev, I don't have any answers for you but a few points which may help you to focus your research. >From the detail you have provided, I guess you have found the children's baptisms by browsing the images on Ancestry. Did you also notice there were 432 baptisms on the same day, 26th October 1845? Family after family which suggests the vicar was an evangelist and had rounded up all the 'defectors' in his parish! So it may be that the Rawlins's parents were not churchgoers and will not be found in any registers, anywhere. It is also reasonable to assume that there were no earlier children or they would have been included in that mass baptism and especially as it would have been normal to call the first born son after his father. From that it is reasonable to assume that if (!) the parents married, it was in 1838. So they should just have been caught in the 1837 Act. Between 1837 & 1839, the only Samuel Rawlins possibly married to a Mary (Snell) was in St Germans, Cornwall, which seems unlikely for your Samuel but you could send for the certificate to eliminate him (or! ask someone on the Cornwall list to do a parish register search for you?). Unlike births, marriage registers after July 1837 should be complete (reporting them to the Registrar was automatic), but the GRO index may contain errors. The entries in the church register were copied and sent to the Superintendent Registrar and then copied again to Somerset House where they were copied again to the index - all handwritten. Then they were copied again by FreeBMD transcribers so it is inevitable that errors occurred somewhere along that chain. Have you tried doing a BMD search using wild cards? Free BMD is not quite complete either. There are even more transcription errors with census records so try 1841 again, with wild cards. Otherwise it seems that the marriage took place outside England & Wales - or, if they did originate from Ireland, were they Catholics? But the marriage would still have been recorded at the GRO if it was in England & Wales. Because a birth has not been recorded in BMD's that does not mean the child was not born in England, because at that time it was not compulsory to report the birth - it was up to the Registrar to find them. You may have already noticed that St Barnabas was founded in 1826 as a daughter church of St Luke, Old St, which makes the Rawlins you have found in that parish more than the just "significant" that you suggested. They are certainly worth exploring further to see where the trail leads you to or from. Also, the only registers available for St Barnabas are from 1842. It may be the earlier registers have not survived (the church was heavily bombed in 1940) or, more likely, all BMD's were performed at St Luke's; making their records worth further research. Ancestry only appear to have digitised the registers up to 1812 but the LMA catalogue says they have the registers much later than that and on microfilm - but the microfilms have been withdrawn because of the Ancestry digitisation. Only the LMA can explain that one! The other records which may help are the poor rate records, electoral registers and workhouse records. Most of these are at the LMA, some have been indexed on Ancestry and a few are held at local history libraries such as Camden and Islington. Although the "working poor", as you describe Samuel, would be unlikely to appear in the poor rate and electoral registers, there were exceptions depending upon the particular circumstances. A surprisingly large number of people from a wide range of backgrounds went in & out of the workhouse, or received 'out relief', for short periods - temporary layoffs, pregnancy and illness being the most common. The Settlement Examination record often contained valuable information about the applicants background. Like you Bev, I get frustrated with the LMA web site. It is difficult to find, difficult to navigate and their catalogue does contain some errors, mainly due to a lack of clear identity of a record. Awarding the digitisation and indexing to Ancestry has added to the problem because of both the transcription and identification errors they have made. As I said at the start, I don't have any answers but I hope the above will be of some help in navigating your difficult task. Barry1936 On 26 Jul 2012, at 13:26, [email protected] wrote: > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 06:38:29 -0400 (EDT) > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MDX] London Metropolitan Archives > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hello again, > > > As I have posted, I am searching for information about the parents of my great great grandfather, Samuel Rawlins, who was baptized with is brother Alfred and sister Mary at St. Barnabas Finsbury in October of 1845. Samuel's birthdate was given as May 3, 1839, his brother was born in 1842 and his sister born in 1844. Samuel's father was also a Samuel Rawlins whose trade was "watch finisher". His mother's name was Mary (?). They were living on Rahere Street at the time of the baptism. > > > I have searched all online English Census records for these people to no avail. There do not seem to be records in the BMD for any of the children mentioned. I have often thought that these may not have been the only children in the family. > > The one US census record found for my ancestor (1880) states that Samuel Rawlins (Jr) was born in Ireland and his parents were born in England. Where in England is the question!! Samuel Jr left Ireland in 1867 for the US. He worked in the shipping trade for several years in the States before establishing permanent residence in 1875, Samuel obviously returned to England sometime between 1871 and 1872 because there is another passenger record for him leaving Liverpool again in 1872 with a watch maker, James Marshea and his sister, Ellen, from Wolverhampton. > > Needless to say, James Marshea was the son of a Jeweler/Watchmaker, James D. Marshea who was born in Birmingham but grew up in Clerkenwell. James D. Marshea appears to have been a contemporary of my Samuel Rawlins Sr. and the two may have worked together. The Marshea family also traveled from town to town but can be tracked in the census records. > > It appears that my Rawlins ancestors traveled to Ireland and back again. I have examined all of the English online directories on Ancestry and on other online sites and find no trace of my family. I have also searched both FMP and Ancestry for birth, marriage and death records for Samuel Sr. and wife Mary. I spent four years working with a researcher in Ireland trying to find a "trace" of these folks. I do think I found a mention of my great great grandfather, Samuel jr. working in Belfast in 1858 in a pawn shop in article found on the new British Newspaper Archive site. Again, I have found no direct information on the family in the Irish sites online. I should say, I have ordered quite a few Birth, Marriage and Death records in hopes of making a connection. > > > I believe that my ancestor, Samuel Rawlins Sr., was one of the "working' poor in the 19th century. Owning no property, working for others, and probably traveling around quite a bit makes him difficult to track. One thing we do know, is that he waited to baptize his children in Islington. > > There are other Rawlins families in Middlesex and a few earlier records at St. Lukes Old Street for them which might have significance. I am just not certain. Perhaps there are other resources that can be checked at the LMA that would connect the dots? > > Information for this line of my family has come in bits and pieces. I am hopeful that one day, I will discover just who Samuel and Mary Rawlins were. > > > Thanks for listening again.... > > Bev W > ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message