Hello NIVARD, I know my father said he was living at his wifes home back in 1935she lived n hommerton while he lived in shoreditch but they both told me they done this because she wanted to marry in her parish and it saved them money in having the banns read in two parishes. thanks pete. ________________________________ From: Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 28 July 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [MDX] Qualifying for "Of this Parish" Hi Jenny I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" My question would be, how do they know? As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the truth, neither would know everyone on their patch In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have both parents blessing or some other reason Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/07/2012 18:34, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where > the Olympics are being held at the moment,  but they both lived in > Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England.  My grandfather was a > merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down > to marry there.  They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they > were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 > weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry > in the parish.  Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge > for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they > could marry. > > I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone > to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a > suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or > so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. > > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Nivard: > Likewise whilst people in rural areas might know much more about their > neighbours than their city dwelling counterparts, I would say its > stretching it somewhat to say that everyone knew where everyone else > lived Not stretching at all. With a parish of, say, 200 souls (and many rural parishes were smaller) grouped into, say, 40 families I'm quite sure that everyone would know everyone. Bear in mind that most of those 200 would spend most of their lives in the parish, all day every day. Quite different from 21st century villages. When I was at secondary school there were 100 people in my year group, and we only spent 7 hours a day there 5 days a week from age 11. But I can confidently say everyone knew everyone very quickly. Best wishes Paul

Hi once again and I thi k I really need some help her if anyone can help I have taken up my neighbours tree after 20 year hiatus after she want3ed to know some small details that could only be found her in melbourne OZ re her families Her main family is FRENCH and gee is it a hard nut to crack!! The other are ok as Ancestry has a heap of them which helps but FRENCH?? Forget it Here is what we know or don't know.. My neighbour enlisted a professional researcher 20 year ago to get some info which somewhat helped but made the puzzle even worse!! He applied for a death certifcate in London for John FRENCH who died 1848 which is the ocrrect guy and his occupation was that of TAILOR aged 45 years He died or rather his death was recorded 21 Feb 1848 at 5 GLOUSTER PLACE REGENTS PARK. and we have no idea who the informant was. Transgressing... The 1841 Census shows John French and his wife Ann living HERTFORD St Borough Marylebone and in the house were John French 41y Tailor and his wife Ann 40y plus 3 kids Maria 7, Henry 10y, James 10y possibly twins as there are twins in my neighbours family John and Ann were not of this parish but the kids were!! Then the 1851 Census shows Ann French as widow born Bristol plus her niece who was born Dorset. No signs of the kids !! Ann French nee Cruse married John French St Clement Danes London 1832 and both just said both of this parish. Ann French or Cruse was the daughter of Bartholomew Cruse that I have had help with or I would be still floundering but this John French?? there is no way he will come out of the closet to tell me where he was born Ann and her surviving son Thomas came to Melbourne 1852 then married again and on her marriage certificate she stated she had 8 kids dec!! This is the where the puzzle begins Who were the kids and where were they born . I have tried Ancestry, Find my Past, The Genealogist ( with help) still nothing I haunt Ancestry in hopes Ann French nee Cruse died in Sydney and her son Thomas was the informant and he too died in Sydney and after looking at his kids names nothing seems to jump out at me for hints, clues for his siblings names etc Thomas French son of John and Ann was born January 9 1844 5 Gloucester place London and his father stated his occupation was that of Tailor Is it possible and I know anything is possible, that the kids were born in this area and is so how or where are these registers One would think Thomas French would appear in the 1851 Census as part of the house hold but he didn't I have tried using Ancestry as in inputting Thomas French as pupil or even nephew had a hit with that, but if that is so, who the couple are don't know. This family of French is really a puzzle and we want to try and solve it and would love to know where this John French was born, Maybe London but not knowing his parenatge certainly doesn't help Many thanks for reading this long winded plea, but I am out of ideas Elaine in wet Melbourne Oz

I am new to this mailing list so I hope my message is OK. BACKGROUND Gibbon FITZGIBBON m Catherine HURLEY and lived at Barron 1817, Barrack Street 1819-1821 in Clonakilty and Castle Freke 1827 in Cork, Ireland before taking his family to England abt 1828. I have found that Edmond, the son, was " educated in London "; " went to London when he was five "; " the family moved to England " Therefore the family likely moved to England in 1828 when Edmond was five. This information was found in Australian newspapers as Edmond came to Victoria in September 1852 - gold rushes. This was an educated family as Edmond was awarded the Companion of the Order of St. Michael and St. George for his services to the Community of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. 1841 Census England, Middlesex, St Giles in the Fields, Tower Street Gibbon Fitzgibbon General Dealer b Ireland age 60 Edmund Fitzgibbon clerk b Ireland age 15 Margt Fitzgibbon General Dealer b Ireland age 40 Margt Fitzgibbon b Ireland age 14 [Edmund's sister] [As yet I do not know who the Margaret age 40 is as Gibbon was married to Catherine HURLEY] Marriage I have found a marriage of Margaret HURLEY to Gibbon FITZGIBBON at St Anne's Soho 1835 - perhaps Catherine had died and Gibbon married her sister. There is no death certificate for her as this is pre 1837 Registration. I have not found her death. 1851 Census Middlesex St Giles in the Fields Tower Street Gibbon Fitzgibbon head age 77 Chelsea Out Pensioner b Ireland Mary FITZGIBBON wife age 50 Domestic b Ireland Does this information lead me an further - Chelsea Out Patient ????? 1851 Census Carshaltown, Surrey FITZGIBBON Margaret b abt 1829 IRL sister Carshalton Surrey HASSELL Elennor T b abt 1822 IRL wife Carshalton, Surrey HASSELL Thomas b abt 1803 Carshalton, Surrey, England, head, Carshalton, Surrey Margaret & Ellen are Gibbon's daughters 1856 death Gibbon Carew FITZGIBBON Dec Q Epsom Surrey Vol 2a I have this certificate: 4 Nov 1856 Carshalton male age 79 gentleman Dysentery & bronchitis Mary WRIGHT present at death DEATH: On the 4th inst., at Carshalton, Surrey, in his 79th year, Gibbon Carew FitzGibbon, youngest son of Thomas FitzGibbon, Esq., of Hospital, County Limerick.- Cork Newspaper QUESTION: How can I find out more about Gibbon FITZGIBBON ? Where is he buried, what happened to his 2 wives. I cannot find Margaret/Mary in the 1861 census. Cheers from Valerie in sunny Sydney

My parents married at St Pancras Parish Church, London in 1933 and the suitcase was no myth ! My father packed and delivered a suitcase to the future in-laws address for the appropriate three weeks, although whether that detail was ever checked I do not know. Both sets of parents had given their blessing and attended the service. This had been delayed by three years, because of the depression and the possibility of both being unemployed. Gee. -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 7:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] Qualifying for "Of this Parish" Hi Jenny I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" My question would be, how do they know? As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the truth, neither would know everyone on their patch In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have both parents blessing or some other reason Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/07/2012 18:34, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where > the Olympics are being held at the moment, but they both lived in > Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England. My grandfather was > a > merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went > down > to marry there. They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they > were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required > 3 > weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry > in the parish. Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge > for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they > could marry. > > I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone > to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave > a > suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or > so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. > > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis

Hi Paul The particular case was one in East London and yes I would agree there is a lot of difference between the rural Parish and the urban However I might just believe that the Vicar of a small rural Parish might have known most or even stretching it a little, all of his Parishioners but can't believe that all did and certainly a registrar wouldn't There were good Vicars who actively saw to their Parishioners wants and needs but there were plenty who did not, some left it to an overburdened curate and its certainly not unknown for some to bend the rules a little (or more) Likewise whilst people in rural areas might know much more about their neighbours than their city dwelling counterparts, I would say its stretching it somewhat to say that everyone knew where everyone else lived As I said previously. although a Vicar would not knowingly marry someone who was not old enough or a non resident I can't see them spending to much time finding a reason not to marry someone Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/07/2012 20:37, Paul Prescott wrote: > Hi: > > There was a big difference between urban and rural parishes. In rural > areas everyone would know where everyone lived. In city parishes > no-one would know or check, and what people said and did was up to > them. Some may not have liked to deceive the vicar, but I doubt that > that was a widespread view. > > My own parents had no such scruples - they simply gave an aunt's > address, no suitcase involved at all. And both my grandmother and > great grandmother didn't even tell the truth about whether they were > already married! > > Paul

Totally agree Caroline. I have examples in my family where a suitcase was left at a relatives address - because they preferred that church! Barry1936 On 28 Jul 2012, at 20:38, [email protected] wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 20:26:09 +0100 > From: Caroline Bradford <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MDX] Qualifying for "Of this Parish" > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Whilst I would absolutely agree that no one ever checked, the practice of leaving a suitcase in the hall or hanging a coat in the spare bedroom is certainly not mythical. My mother insisted on my doing this when I married in my old home parish (whilst actually resident in London) 34 years ago tomorrow. She had done the same thing in the 1940s. Neither she nor my grandmother were especially pious, I think there was a certain queasiness about lying to the vicar in those days. > > Caroline > > Sent from my iPad > > On 28 Jul 2012, at 19:33, Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Jenny >> >> I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for >> three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" >> >> My question would be, how do they know? >> >> As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a >> couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this >> Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going >> around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the >> truth, neither would know everyone on their patch >> >> In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the >> fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead >> >> As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more >> inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted >> >> Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that >> they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have >> both parents blessing or some other reason >> >> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Hi Paul, Thankyou for asking if I was looking for help tracing my grandparents. No I was not looking for help just pointing out another thing that our ancestors did in order to marry, one of the pitfalls of research sometimes. I have both my Grandmother's and grandfather's families back to around the 1600s in the north east of England. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<Absolutely, the practice of leaving clothes at an abode so they could say they were of that parish was a common occurrence often monetary. That is why it is not uncommon to see the married couple having the same address. This practice continued right through the 20th. century. Were you looking for help tracing them?>>

I have found John Kinshela in the 1901 census in the W Victoria park workhouse. I'll see if I can find the others for you. Name John Kinshela Relation to Head of Family Inmate Age Last Birthday 85 (b 1816) Sex Male Profession or Occupation Gl Labourer Condition as to Marriage Widower Where Born Bethnal Green London Address W Victoria Park Civil Parish I also found this site which lists the local workhouses. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jeffery.knaggs/Instuts.html cheers Sheila -----Original Message----- From: mvs Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 7:57 PM To: MIDDLESEX ROOTSWEB Subject: [MDX] COLES - KINSHELA Hello Does anyone out there have any connection to Charles Coles or Ellen Kinshela. They married on 21 September, 1890 in the Parish of St James. They were both 22 and both residing in Bethnal Green. His father was also Charles Coles (dec) and her father John Kinshela (dec) I've looked for them in the Census and they just don't seem to be anywhere. I'm hoping someone can help me find them. Cheers Marcelle ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Caroline I did say seemingly mythical :-) Yours is the first time I have heard first hand knowledge of it I can well understand the need to salve the conscience, certainly I don't think many would have any queasiness these days :-) Mind you who gets married these days <g> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/07/2012 20:26, Caroline Bradford wrote: > Whilst I would absolutely agree that no one ever checked, the > practice of leaving a suitcase in the hall or hanging a coat in the > spare bedroom is certainly not mythical. My mother insisted on my > doing this when I married in my old home parish (whilst actually > resident in London) 34 years ago tomorrow. She had done the same > thing in the 1940s. Neither she nor my grandmother were especially > pious, I think there was a certain queasiness about lying to the > vicar in those days. > > Caroline > > Sent from my iPad >

Hi: There was a big difference between urban and rural parishes. In rural areas everyone would know where everyone lived. In city parishes no-one would know or check, and what people said and did was up to them. Some may not have liked to deceive the vicar, but I doubt that that was a widespread view. My own parents had no such scruples - they simply gave an aunt's address, no suitcase involved at all. And both my grandmother and great grandmother didn't even tell the truth about whether they were already married! Paul On 28 July 2012 20:26, Caroline Bradford <[email protected]> wrote: > Whilst I would absolutely agree that no one ever checked, the practice of leaving a suitcase in the hall or hanging a coat in the spare bedroom is certainly not mythical. My mother insisted on my doing this when I married in my old home parish (whilst actually resident in London) 34 years ago tomorrow. She had done the same thing in the 1940s. Neither she nor my grandmother were especially pious, I think there was a certain queasiness about lying to the vicar in those days. > > Caroline > > Sent from my iPad > > On 28 Jul 2012, at 19:33, Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Jenny >> >> I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for >> three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" >> >> My question would be, how do they know? >> >> As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a >> couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this >> Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going >> around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the >> truth, neither would know everyone on their patch >> >> In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the >> fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead >> >> As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more >> inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted >> >> Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that >> they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have >> both parents blessing or some other reason >> >> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >> >> >> On 28/07/2012 18:34, Jenny De Angelis wrote: >>> My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where >>> the Olympics are being held at the moment, but they both lived in >>> Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England. My grandfather was a >>> merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down >>> to marry there. They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they >>> were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 >>> weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry >>> in the parish. Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge >>> for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they >>> could marry. >>> >>> I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone >>> to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a >>> suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or >>> so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. >>> >>> Regards >>> Jenny DeAngelis >> ************************************** >> Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. >> >> **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** >> >> List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Sheila Thank you for your help. The workhouse - one can only imagine! Very much appreciated Marcelle Western Australia

Whilst I would absolutely agree that no one ever checked, the practice of leaving a suitcase in the hall or hanging a coat in the spare bedroom is certainly not mythical. My mother insisted on my doing this when I married in my old home parish (whilst actually resident in London) 34 years ago tomorrow. She had done the same thing in the 1940s. Neither she nor my grandmother were especially pious, I think there was a certain queasiness about lying to the vicar in those days. Caroline Sent from my iPad On 28 Jul 2012, at 19:33, Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Jenny > > I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for > three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" > > My question would be, how do they know? > > As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a > couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this > Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going > around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the > truth, neither would know everyone on their patch > > In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the > fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead > > As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more > inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted > > Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that > they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have > both parents blessing or some other reason > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > On 28/07/2012 18:34, Jenny De Angelis wrote: >> My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where >> the Olympics are being held at the moment, but they both lived in >> Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England. My grandfather was a >> merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down >> to marry there. They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they >> were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 >> weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry >> in the parish. Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge >> for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they >> could marry. >> >> I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone >> to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a >> suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or >> so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. >> >> Regards >> Jenny DeAngelis > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Pete, That's a wonderful suggestion. Many thanks Marcelle in Western Australia -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of PETER WELLS Sent: Saturday, 28 July 2012 6:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] COLES - KINSHELA Hello Mvs, have you tried contacting tower hamlets archives, or the east london hyistory society google will give you the addresses thanks pete   ________________________________ From: mvs <[email protected]> To: MIDDLESEX ROOTSWEB <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, 28 July 2012, 10:57 Subject: [MDX] COLES - KINSHELA Hello Does anyone out there have any connection to Charles Coles or Ellen Kinshela. They married on 21 September, 1890 in the Parish of St James.  They were both 22 and both residing in Bethnal Green. His father was also Charles Coles (dec) and her father John Kinshela (dec) I've looked for them in the Census and they just don't seem to be anywhere. I'm hoping someone can help me find them. Cheers Marcelle ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where the Olympics are being held at the moment, but they both lived in Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England. My grandfather was a merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down to marry there. They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry in the parish. Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they could marry. I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<This particularly applies to marriages My grandmother married in a church away from her parish because she liked the look of the church and it had steps she could walk down in her wedding gown! Steven Hollis Senior Metallurgist>>

Hi Jenny I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" My question would be, how do they know? As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the truth, neither would know everyone on their patch In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have both parents blessing or some other reason Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/07/2012 18:34, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where > the Olympics are being held at the moment, but they both lived in > Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England. My grandfather was a > merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down > to marry there. They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they > were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 > weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry > in the parish. Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge > for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they > could marry. > > I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone > to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a > suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or > so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. > > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis

Hello Does anyone out there have any connection to Charles Coles or Ellen Kinshela. They married on 21 September, 1890 in the Parish of St James. They were both 22 and both residing in Bethnal Green. His father was also Charles Coles (dec) and her father John Kinshela (dec) I've looked for them in the Census and they just don't seem to be anywhere. I'm hoping someone can help me find them. Cheers Marcelle

As I frequently point out to anyone prepared to listen to me drone on about Genealogy, and those caught unawares with no easy means of escape. Nobody has proof of their ancestry even back to 1837 and regardless of what certificates and parish register copies that have obtained. What they have proof of is what peole have told registrars over the ensuing tje period since no registrar was required to verify in any way the facts presented them. Simply to record what the "Informant" told them and who the "Informant" said they were. On 07/28/2012 02:33 PM, Nivard Ovington wrote: > Hi Jenny > > I have often seen mention of the leaving of clothes or a suitcase for > three weeks in a Parish to qualify for "of this Parish" > > My question would be, how do they know? > > As the Vicar or Registrar was not looking for an excuse *not* to marry a > couple, I would have thought the mere statement that they were of this > Parish would be enough, I do not see either a Vicar or registrar going > around knocking on doors to try and prove the couple were telling the > truth, neither would know everyone on their patch > > In the same way, no proof of age was asked for neither was proof of the > fathers name, occupation or if alive or dead > > As there is no record kept of the seemingly mythical suitcase I am more > inclined to believe they simply made the statement and it was accepted > > Another reason they may have married so far from home, could be that > they could not marry at a home Parish, either because they did not have > both parents blessing or some other reason > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > On 28/07/2012 18:34, Jenny De Angelis wrote: >> My Grandparents married in Stratford East London, a short walk from where >> the Olympics are being held at the moment, but they both lived in >> Hartlepool County Durham in the North East of England. My grandfather was a >> merchant seaman and must have been in the London Docks and grandma went down >> to marry there. They gave an address in the Stratford area and said they >> were both of that parish but maybe my grandfather had arrived the required 3 >> weeks beforehand and took up lodgings there in order that they could marry >> in the parish. Either that or my grandma moved down to Stratford to lodge >> for that period of time until granddad returned from his voyage and they >> could marry. >> >> I have also been told that all that would be required in order for someone >> to say they were of the parish in which they wanted to marry, was to leave a >> suitcase of clothes in a house in that parish for the required 3 weeks or >> so, they didn't necessarily have to live there. >> >> Regards >> Jenny DeAngelis > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- */Mick/*

Marcelle, I presume that your Charles and Ellen COLES are the couple found in West Ham (Essex) in 1891 and 1901. If so, in 1891 he is recorded as Charles F. COLES, born Bethnal Green. His age is hard to read and has been transcribed as 32, but it might be 22. 1891 - RG12-1310 folio 109 page 83 (Ancestry have indexed him as Chap F. COLES) In 1901 the family is recorded under COLE. 1901 - RG13-1563 folio 130 page 38 Bearing in mind the middle initial F shown in 1891, there's a likely baptism for Charles *Frederick* COLES on 20 June 1869 (born 1 June) at St Matthias, Bethnal Green, son of Charles (brewer's servant) and Elizabeth COLES, of 30 Menotti Street (Ancestry's London parish registers). The COLES family is found at that address (or at 34 Menotti Street) in 1871. 1871 - RG10-498 folio 18 page 30. In 1881 the family has moved to West Ham. The mother Elizabeth (née CLARK) has remarried (1878, St James the Great, Bethnal Green) to James Samuel WRIGHT. She is enumerated under WRIGHT, and her children are under COLES. Charles now has a sister Susan(ah) aged 7, who could be the Susan COLES who witnessed the 1890 marriage to Ellen KINSHELA. 1881 - RG11-1705 folio 57 page 40 (or search for C. F. COLES aged 11 in West Ham.) Again from Ancestry's parish registers, Charles COLES senior married Elizabeth CLARK on 26 June 1864 at St James the Great, Bethnal Green. Perhaps these are worth looking at? Say if you need the images. HTH Judy London, UK -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mvs Does anyone out there have any connection to Charles Coles or Ellen Kinshela. They married on 21 September, 1890 in the Parish of St James. They were both 22 and both residing in Bethnal Green. His father was also Charles Coles (dec) and her father John Kinshela (dec) I've looked for them in the Census and they just don't seem to be anywhere. I'm hoping someone can help me find them. Cheers Marcelle

Hello Mvs, have you tried contacting tower hamlets archives, or the east london hyistory society google will give you the addresses thanks pete   ________________________________ From: mvs <[email protected]> To: MIDDLESEX ROOTSWEB <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, 28 July 2012, 10:57 Subject: [MDX] COLES - KINSHELA Hello Does anyone out there have any connection to Charles Coles or Ellen Kinshela. They married on 21 September, 1890 in the Parish of St James.  They were both 22 and both residing in Bethnal Green. His father was also Charles Coles (dec) and her father John Kinshela (dec) I've looked for them in the Census and they just don't seem to be anywhere. I'm hoping someone can help me find them. Cheers Marcelle ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message