COLEEN COLEMAN wrote: > They were both age 20 he was a bachelor and she was a spinster. Good :)) Let's concentrate just on John for now. We can come back to Mary later. John said he was 20. The chances are he would have turned 21 that year. Therefore, he would have been born before civil registration began so you need his baptism. That will give you his mother's given name but not her surname. What sources tell you where he was born? It's no good looking in Ireland or Scotland if he says he was born in England. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Coleen, Can you stop for a while and back up please? Can you also please read this carefully. We are trying very hard to help you but you are jumping around all over the place and not answering specific questions. This is making it very difficult to help you because you don't seem to be taking in or understanding what's being said. I don't know anything about Laszlo Mail which you seem to be using to send to the list but you should be able to include the mail you are replying to. Slow down and go step by step. If we ask you a question or for information, please answer it as fully as possible so we are better able to help you. Forget about John HYLAND's birth for now. It's no good trying to chase that down until you know more about him. Please tell us *exactly* what you know for certain about John: not what you think you know, not what you believe, just cold, hard facts that would stand up in a court of law. For instance you have the name of his father, his father's occupation, his bride's name, her father's name and her father's occupation. The source is his marriage certificate which it may be possible to find on Ancestry. What you do NOT have is John's mother's name nor his mother in law's name because they are not on the marriage cert. You need to give references to the sources and the sites you've used - but NOT Google! :)) We can then take it step by step. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Surely the site will tell you how much it costs! J On 6 August 2012 21:28, COLEEN COLEMAN <[email protected]> wrote: > Found the following in RootsIreland.ie: > birth/baptism John Hyland born 1833 (+/-) 5 yrs > 1832, Co Kilkenny Co Offaly (2) > 1834 Co Waterford, Co Tipperary, Co Dublin > With a father Thomas but need to purchase 25 credits each to view > each of these records. Not sure what it would run me in US dollars. Can > anyone elaborate. thanks > **************************************

COLEEN COLEMAN wrote: > 1853 Marriage solemnized by ____________________________in the District > of Stepney in the County of Middlesex > 8th May 1853 John Hyland and Mary Dwyer Father's name and surname Thomas > Hyland, laborer, John Dwyer, coke dealer. > Married in the __________________________________according to the Rites > and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church. by > me________________________________________ > in the presence of JOhn Dwyer and Catherine Hyland. This marriage was > solemnized between us, The ward of X John Hyland and the ward of X Mary > Dwyer There's nothing there to say Catherine HYLAND was John's mother. It doesn't give any relationship at all which is normal. You will need John's birth certificate to find out his mother's name. It's not "the ward of" but "the mark of" meaning that neither could apparently not sign their name. What you haven't given is the ages of the bride and groom. What did it say there? -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Coleen you recently wrote:- >> I have a marriage record for John and Mary Hyland in 1853 giving his parents as Thomas and Catherine Hyland. I feel that these people are indeed my people as they were in England in 1861 census. << Where did John Hyland marry his Mary in 1853? I see that John Hyland married Mary Dwyer in June Qtr. 1853 at Stepney vol. 1c page 1033. If this is the marriage entry you have a copy of then an English marriage certificate, either from the register office or Church of England marriage register, would not show the mother's name, just the father's name and occupation of both bride and groom. So where did you get the mother of John given as Catherine from? What sort of marriage record is it that you have? Did they marry in the Catholic church? maybe the RC registers do have both mother's and father's names recorded in marriages. I don't know as I don't have any Roman Catholics to find in my family so have not seen RC church registers of marriage. I know that Scottish marriages show both parents names of bride and groom maybe Roman Catholic registers do too. I remember you said they were of mixed religion and that is why they emigrated, the family disapproving of the marriage. Regards Jenny DeAngelis

Go back to the entry in FreeBMD and click on the "page number", you will see it gives Vol number and Page number. This will bring up any other names that appear on the same page of the marriage register, but only those names that have so far been subscribed to FreeBMD, you may find just 1,2 or 3 names instead of the 4 names from the 2 marriages that appear on each page of a marriage register. FreeBMD, as I said in my last message, is an ongoing project so not all names nor entries have yet been transcribed. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<Unfortunately I went to freebmd.org.uk/ and did what it told me to do click on the pair of eye glasses and all it did was brought up the index listing Bridget Hyland where and when she married and where to find said record. What am I doing wrong? I did not find the name of the spouse for this lady. Thanks>>

Tony Mitchell wrote: > You may be interested to know what a senior manager from the Family Records > Centre (R.I.P.) had to say in 2005. > > "There's no way of knowing exactly how many of our ancestors' vital life > events escaped the registration net but, based on my personal experience, I > would be very surprised if the real figure (in the early years) was more > than 5 per cent overall. I also suspect that by the mid 1840s > non-registration had ceased to be a significant problem other then in > exceptional circumstances." > > He went on to say: > > "Did the 1874 Act make any difference? If it did, then we would expect to > see a considerable rise in the number of births registered in 1875; but we > don't. In fact, the total rises steadily and gradually throughout the 1870s > without any significant increase after the 1874 Act became law. It seems > that by the early 1870s, for the vast majority of people, trips to the > Register Office had become a part of everyday life. The Act may have > tightened up a few aspects of the process, but it had little or no effect on > whether our ancestors chose to register family births or not." Thank you :)) -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

COLEEN COLEMAN wrote: > Unfortunately I went to freebmd.org.uk/ and did what it told me to do > click on the pair of eye glasses and all it did was brought up the index > listing Bridget Hyland where and when she > married and where to find said record. What am I doing wrong? I did not > find the name of the spouse for this lady. Thanks You will not find the complete record. Only what is in the index and then only by clicking on the *page* number. I've already given you the potential spouses. The specs symbol gives you the option to find the image. The info symbol gives you more information but *not* to the actual marriage cert. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

You may be interested to know what a senior manager from the Family Records Centre (R.I.P.) had to say in 2005. "There's no way of knowing exactly how many of our ancestors' vital life events escaped the registration net but, based on my personal experience, I would be very surprised if the real figure (in the early years) was more than 5 per cent overall. I also suspect that by the mid 1840s non-registration had ceased to be a significant problem other then in exceptional circumstances." He went on to say: "Did the 1874 Act make any difference? If it did, then we would expect to see a considerable rise in the number of births registered in 1875; but we don't. In fact, the total rises steadily and gradually throughout the 1870s without any significant increase after the 1874 Act became law. It seems that by the early 1870s, for the vast majority of people, trips to the Register Office had become a part of everyday life. The Act may have tightened up a few aspects of the process, but it had little or no effect on whether our ancestors chose to register family births or not." Tony

Hello Charani,  I think you will find freebmd will only go up till 1983 hanks pete ________________________________ From: Charani <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 6 August 2012, 14:51 Subject: Re: [MDX] birth recprds/certificates of birth HYLAND,DWYER Nivard Ovington wrote: > ??? > > Both links take you to freebmd , both are the same content How can they have the same content?  Ancestry's version of FreeBMD stops at 1915.  FreeBMD's own site is into the 1950s if not later. To get passed 1915 on Ancestry, researchers have to pay. To get passed 1915 on FreeBMD, researchers don't have to pay - they simply enter the later dates. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk/ ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Coleen, What makes you so certain that the parents of John and his sister Bridget were Thomas & Catherine? Have you found something with these parents names and their son John and/or daughter Bridget? You have still not told us in which census, or other document, you have found the two children, John and Margaret, with what you believe to be their aunt Bridget and Malachy Hyland after John & Mary emigrated to the USA. Was this in the 1871 census entry that you found the children with Bridget and Malachy? I found what I think might be John Hyland junior, he born about 1855, in the 1871 in a lodging house in Chelsea. The ref. for this entry is RG10 piece 77 folio 60 page 23. It is a very large lodging house in Queen Street East, Chelsea, the house is called Model Lodging House I think, though it is a little difficult to read. This John Hyland is noted as a Lodger, is aged 16, occupation Servant, Born Chelsea Middx. His age of 16 in 1871 puts him born 1854/5. I can find no Margaret Hyland, or variant, born 1859 with +/- 5yrs., born Chelsea, nor one born anywhere in Middlesex, living anywhere in England in the 1871 census. As to the marriage you noted below. If you go back to FreeBMD and click on the page number in each of the entries in turn it will bring up the other names that appear in those two marriage, female and male names. By the 1870s. there were just 2 marriage per page in the register so you should find 4 names in all per page, provided that all four names have been transcribed to FreeBMD. FreeBMD is an ongoing project so not yet complete and you might find just two or three names instead of 4 on occasion. Regard Jenny DeAngelis <<free bmd.org.uk/ Bridget Hyland 1876 Chelsea Middlesex County Vol 1a pg.474 1877 Chelsea Middlesex County vol 1a pg.377 wonder if one of these could be her or if she married twice within a few mos. say if for example her husband died and she re-married. Hmm need to check out these two marriages as well to see if her parents were Thomas and Catherine Hyland>>

On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 13:26:01 -0400 (EDT) COLEEN COLEMAN <[email protected]> wrote: Hello COLEEN, >married and where to find said record. What am I doing wrong? I did not >find the name of the spouse for this lady. Thanks Nothing. Wherever you look online you'll only find the index information. Only from March qtr 1912 was the spouse's name included in the index. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" They said we'd be artistically free, but that was on a bit of paper Complete Control - The Clash

COLEEN COLEMAN wrote: > I have a marriage record for John and Mary Hyland in 1853 giving > his parents as Thomas and Catherine Hyland. Where are you getting the idea Catherine was John's mother????? You are *NOT* getting this from an English marriage cert because it is not given. Was there is a witness to John's marriage who was called Catherine? If so, she *might* be his mother but it's equally possible she *could* be his grandmother, his sister, his aunt, his cousin, his sister in law or any other female relative. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Jenny De Angelis wrote: > I can find no Margaret Hyland, or variant, born 1859 with +/- > 5yrs., born Chelsea, nor one born anywhere in Middlesex, living > anywhere in England in the 1871 census. I haven't been able to find a Margaret born c1859 either. > As to the marriage you noted below. If you go back to FreeBMD and > click on the page number in each of the entries in turn it will > bring up the other names that appear in those two marriage, female > and male names. By the 1870s. there were just 2 marriage per page > in the register so you should find 4 names in all per page, > provided that all four names have been transcribed to FreeBMD. > FreeBMD is an ongoing project so not yet complete and you might > find just two or three names instead of 4 on occasion. Coleen Coleman wrote: > <<free bmd.org.uk/ > Bridget Hyland > 1876 Chelsea Middlesex County > Vol 1a pg.474 This one is the Dec qtr (Coleen: this is what we mean about giving *all* the information!). This Bridget married either John FITZPATRICK *or* Stephen PASSENGER The 1881 census will tell you which. > 1877 Chelsea Middlesex County vol 1a pg.377 This one was in the March qtr. There's only one other name: Edward STRETTON Could be the other couple hasn't been transcribed or they were the last couple in that particular volume or quarter. > wonder if one of these could be her or if she married twice within > a few mos. say if for example her husband died and she re-married. > Coleen: If she remarried she would have done so under her late husband's name NOT her maiden name. You are talking about two different women, one of whom married in 1876 and the other in 1877 *but* one of them is very likely to be the Bridget you are looking for. > Hmm need to check out these two marriages as well to see if her > parents were Thomas and Catherine Hyland You will *NOT* get the mother's name! Please stop being so fixated with a single idea. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hello again, Adrian I think it is the word "compulsory" which is giving the difficulty here. Registration was compulsory in the sense that it was not optional - i.e. it was not a matter of parental choice (as baptism was and is), but a requirement under the law of the land. Despite its limitations, the 1836 Act was clear in its purpose - to produce a register of *every* birth. It was clearly hoped that the financial inducement offered to Registrars of 2/6 each for the first 20 entries in the registers in each year and 1/- for every one thereafter would be sufficient encouragement for them to be zealous in their pursuit of every birth in their District. Best wishes Caroline > How could it be compulsory for the parents if they could not be > penalised? > As you say, in the early days it was the responsibility of the > Registrar to seek out and deal with the registration! > > Adrian >

COLEEN COLEMAN wrote: > How do I locate the right marriage record for the lady named Bridget > Hyland age 23 in 1861 Middlesex with John, Mary and their (2) two > children w/would like ordering all (7) seven certificates? By asking the GRO to do a reference check which you can do by NOT giving the reference. The GRO will see if the *father's name* matches together with any other information you have *confirmed* is correct and issue you with the cert if it matches but give you a refund if it does not. > I would like to find one with her parents possibly being listed as > Thomas and Catherine. As has been said already: the mother is NOT given on English marriage certs. The father "possibly being listed" isn't enough. You have to be absolutely sure Thomas was the father or you are going to end up wasting a lot of time and money chasing the wrong family. > DATES: > Dec 1861 Vol.8d pg.847 > June 1864 vol.6b pg.927 > Sept 1864 6d pg.396 > June 1866 Vol.8e pg.84 > Dec 1866 Vol.8c pg.243 > Dec 1867 vol.8b pg.410 > Mar 1869 vol.6c pg.228 None of those are in Middlesex or close so not likely to be yours. The volume numbers are for a number of different areas in the Midlands (NOT Middlesex) and the North of England. The volume number for Middlesex is generally 1 followed by a letter. Bridget may have married when she was much older or not at all. > If someone could get me a quick check on these records and let me > know which one I need to order for my records as I am almost positive > this is my family. Each registration district covers a number of difference parishes. It's not a quick and easy check but a long one. It's a big ask. You are wanting someone to check around 14 weeks worth of marriages in dozens of parishes in order to find one marriage. That's several hours worth of work. The parish registers are arranged in date order NOT alphabetical order and no one has access to the certs held by the GRO. The only way to access the GRO certs is to buy them. If you click on the page number in FreeBMD you will find the possible husbands. Have a look in the 1881 census (which is free of charge) for each of the potential *husbands* to see if they have a wife call Bridget. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Don't overlook http://www.ukbmd.org.uk Clicking on "local BMD" leads to a page where you will find links to all the county sites that offer online transcribed indexes to the original records held by the local register offices. The benefit is that the transcriptions are from the actual register, not much copied indexes, and have often been transcribed by local people; with all the benefits of accuracy. Furthermore, there is a link and preprinted order form for the local RO with full details and income from certificates go to the local Council, not the government, which I applaud.. Bearing in mind the transcription was done with the full cooperation of the local Registrar it follows that their offices are especially helpful in assisting to ensure I have found the correct certificate; even phoning me to tell me I have got something wrong or offering a better alternative. The local transcriptions also have other advantages, such as pairing husband and wife with both names ! listed in the marriage results pages. The downside is that the coverage is currently very limited! I am lucky because many of my Middlesex ancestors originated from N Wales which is well covered. Any volunteers out there for Middlesex? Barry1936 On 6 Aug 2012, at 14:58, [email protected] wrote: > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 14:31:55 +0100 > From: Charani <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MDX] [!! SPAM] Re: birth recprds/certificates of birth > HYLAND, DWYER > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > COLEEN COLEMAN wrote: >> need to save more money as I need to purchase more credits in order to >> view the records I located on Free BDM > > FreeBMD is free. What do you need credits for? > > The entries on FreeBMD are an index. There's no more information for > births or deaths on any other site. You can only get birth and death > details in the form of a certificate. > > -- > Charani (UK) > OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, > Greinton and Clutton, SOM > http://wsom-opc.org.uk >

They were both age 20 he was a bachelor and she was a spinster.

What sarcasm? I am very sorry if you took umbrage Nothing was intended, having reread my post I can't see anything to be upset about Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 06/08/2012 16:42, Charani wrote: > Nivard Ovington wrote: > >> Please try them before replying > > The sarcasm is uncalled for. > > Goodbye! > >

Nivard Ovington wrote: > Please try them before replying The sarcasm is uncalled for. Goodbye! -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk