I agree with Anne. The system used to record birth dates is written assuming the child was born a month or two before baptism. Only if the child is older than that is the date expanded to remove ambiguity. For those baptized on 21st March 1802 the dates refer to the previous few months, except for Maria who was born in 1799. So, Harriot was born Feb 21st 1802 Steve -----Original Message----- From: Anne Chambers Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 11:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] Help with Date on Image I don't agree - if you look at the page, the only years that are written out are *not* 1802. It would seem that if a year is not stated, then it must be 1802....they cannot all be baptisms of children born before 1802. Anne South Australia Connie wrote: > sylvia wrote: >> Hi: Can anyone with ancestry look at Harriot Higgs, baptized 21 March >> 1802, >> St. George Hanover Square (this exactly), please help me understand what >> the >> date of birth is. I can't quite figure out what the date is as the >> months >> and days and years keep changing in the "born" column. Thx > > Hallo > > Harriot was baptised March 21 1802 and was born November 21 1799. > > The entry before for Maria is November 6 1799. The vicar has not > included the month or year of birth for Harriot because it is the same > as Maria's. > > The vicar is using a kind of shorthand. He gives the date of birth in > full where it is a new month, day and year. He gives the month and > day where the year of birth is the same as the previous entry. He > gives just the day where the month and year are the same in the > previous entry. > > The last five entries for baptisms that took place on March 21 are: > > Thomas born February 16 1801 > Maria born November 6 1799 > Harriot born November 21 1799 > George born November 28 1799 > Thomas born January 30 1799 > > The entries are probably in the order they were booked, hence the > apparent jumping around of birth dates. I think this may be a day > book. Ancestry had access to what was in the LMA. St George Hanover > Square is in Westminster which has their own archives. It isn't > included in the LMA records. > > You should be able to get confirmation of Harriot's age from the 1841 > census (40) and 1851 census (51) and her death certificate if the > informant knew how old she was. > > Connie in London ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Judy Lester wrote: > The images on Ancestry are from the bishop's transcripts for St George > Hanover Square (held at LMA.) Hallo Thank you. Connie in London

The images on Ancestry are from the bishop's transcripts for St George Hanover Square (held at LMA.) HTH Judy London, UK -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Connie I think this may be a day book. Ancestry had access to what was in the LMA. St George Hanover Square is in Westminster which has their own archives. It isn't included in the LMA records.

sylvia wrote: > Hi: Can anyone with ancestry look at Harriot Higgs, baptized 21 March 1802, > St. George Hanover Square (this exactly), please help me understand what the > date of birth is. I can't quite figure out what the date is as the months > and days and years keep changing in the "born" column. Thx Hallo Harriot was baptised March 21 1802 and was born November 21 1799. The entry before for Maria is November 6 1799. The vicar has not included the month or year of birth for Harriot because it is the same as Maria's. The vicar is using a kind of shorthand. He gives the date of birth in full where it is a new month, day and year. He gives the month and day where the year of birth is the same as the previous entry. He gives just the day where the month and year are the same in the previous entry. The last five entries for baptisms that took place on March 21 are: Thomas born February 16 1801 Maria born November 6 1799 Harriot born November 21 1799 George born November 28 1799 Thomas born January 30 1799 The entries are probably in the order they were booked, hence the apparent jumping around of birth dates. I think this may be a day book. Ancestry had access to what was in the LMA. St George Hanover Square is in Westminster which has their own archives. It isn't included in the LMA records. You should be able to get confirmation of Harriot's age from the 1841 census (40) and 1851 census (51) and her death certificate if the informant knew how old she was. Connie in London

mvs wrote: > Hi Sylvia. > > Harriot was born 21 November 1802 and baptized 21 March 1802, as per > Ancestry. Hallo How could Harriot be born 8 months after she was baptised? Connie in London

Resending as a few errors in my first email - it's early for us in the West Coast of US. Definitely Feb 21, 1802 1) all those listed without the year are 1802 2) can't be Mar 21, as that's the date of the baptism 3) isn't January because the after the next one (28th) they have actually entered January for the next one It has certainly caused a debate this one.   Paul Eggleton ________________________________ From: Paul Eggleton <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [MDX] Help with Date on Image Definitely Feb 21 1) all those listed without the year are 1802 2) can't be Mar 21, as that's the date of the burial 3) isn't January because the after the next one (28th) they have actually entered January for the next one   Paul Eggleton ________________________________ From: sylvia <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 9:12 PM Subject: [MDX] Help with Date on Image Hi:  Can anyone with ancestry look at Harriot Higgs, baptized 21 March 1802, St. George Hanover Square (this exactly), please help me understand what the date of birth is.  I can't quite figure out what the date is as the months and days and years keep changing in the "born" column.  Thx ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Definitely Feb 21 1) all those listed without the year are 1802 2) can't be Mar 21, as that's the date of the burial 3) isn't January because the after the next one (28th) they have actually entered January for the next one   Paul Eggleton ________________________________ From: sylvia <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 9:12 PM Subject: [MDX] Help with Date on Image Hi:  Can anyone with ancestry look at Harriot Higgs, baptized 21 March 1802, St. George Hanover Square (this exactly), please help me understand what the date of birth is.  I can't quite figure out what the date is as the months and days and years keep changing in the "born" column.  Thx ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Would someone please tell me how to locate the file of "Masters and Mates " on ancestry.ca Thank you very much Alaine Alaine Bastow

Hi: Can anyone with ancestry look at Harriot Higgs, baptized 21 March 1802, St. George Hanover Square (this exactly), please help me understand what the date of birth is. I can't quite figure out what the date is as the months and days and years keep changing in the "born" column. Thx

Hi Anne I missed the earlier part of your conversation with Nivard, so at the risk of going completely off the track, the P & O company had three ships called the Salsette. The first was built in1858 and mostly worked on the Suez, Mauritius, Sydney run.She was sold in 1870, renamed the Sumatra in 1873 and eventually broken up in 1900.The second Salsette was built in 1908 and sunk by torpedo off Weymouth in 1917.The last one was built in 1856, I know because I served on it as 3^rd mate in 1963. There is more information on the P & O's archive web site. Regards Peter Hi Nivard, Yes, I did know the first bits of info but....Wow! I have never heard of the other Vessel Salsette. I think it must be him. The birth date is a bit different but it works out different on his death certificate too. [died age 45 in 1908] Well done! I shall have a look at find my past. Thanks too for the links to lists, I have not used any them, but have put a lot of info on the Caribbean Surnames index, with no joy so far. I will try the these three lists you sent too. You have given me some hope again, especially as Vessel Salsett says Antigua. The family story was that he came from Kingston Jamaica and his birth, worked out from the death certificate, works out at 1863. "West Riding" crew list says, he was born in 1859 in Antigua. [I have a copy of the actual list from the Martime History Archive in Newfoundland.] I am lucky that I have photo's of Everard and Keziah, plus their children, but it would be great to break through this brick wall. If the actual crew list exists, there is a fair amount of information on them, which may confirm some of the info on "West Riding" crew list too. I have also found the house they lived in in 1901, which still exists. 395, Acton Lane. Anyway, thanks so much for your input, which is very helpful. Best wishes Ann

Eselle: I would guess C&D is for Chess and Draughts. CW could perhaps be the name of a village, a firm or a pub. Regards, John Moore >Hello Listers,I am wondering if anyone knows what the initials C. W. >C. & D. LEAGUE may mean? They are printed on what may be a silver >medallion or it could be the hanging part of a bar type pin. The >initials are imprinted in a semi-circular portion on the top of the >"medallion". In the middle is a raised, almost shield-like portion. >Reaching upwards to the right and left, from a central point at the >bottom, going upwards towards the semi-circular part are what looks >like laurel or fern leaves. These are in cut out shapes in the >shape of the frond and pressed into the texture of the leaf. On the >back is the inscription...draughts J S Cope, 1920. Just wondering if >any wise listers would have any ideas on the origin of the >medallion; it's inscription, or it's owner? It has been found in >Queensland, Australia, but perhaps it's family origins are in >England. Thank you for any help. Estelle > >************************************** >Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM >AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > >**MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES >in CAPITAL letters** > >List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

am working with a will written in London in 1747. The will opens with > the common expression of consideration of one's mortality, recommendation > of soul to God and so on. These were standards in most wills, conditioned by the fact they were proved in Church (of England) courts. As lawyers were paid by the size of documents, they shoved in up to a dozen of these vaguely pious expressions before they got down to the nitty-gritty of 'Imprimis I give, devise and bequeathe to....' It is highly likely, on other grounds, that the > testator is a Non-conformist in faith, possibly Baptist of some variety. > > Paradoxically, those who were Dissenters often had fewer of the stock formulaic expressions than others. (And Quakers, of course, would not swear to adminioster so were allow3ed to 'affirm' they would do so' > This one seems somewhat longer than usual, and also refers to "the Elect" > which is somewhat distinctive. That is certainly an expression which I would associate with Particular Baptists (rather than General ones. They believed that you were only likely to be Saved if you were born 'chosen' to be so. I have never understood how a sect could rec ruit new members, if they were damned from the start, but I suppose it did tend to cling on to the existing members and their families, since if you left, you were 'unelected' and lost your place in heaven. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians in cluding 'Wills Before 1858' Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

Thank you very much for this. It seems to fit with what I know about him. The executor of the will I am concerned with was a John Gill. I have John Gill's signature on the inventory of the testator's estate, and have compared it withf the signature of John Gill, who was at this time, pastor of the Goat Yard Strict Baptist congregation at Horsleydown in Southwark (right across the Tower Bridge from the Wapping area where the testator lived). The testator's sister was some years later, a member of a Mill Yard meeting house Baptist congregation. On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 7:22 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > am working with a will written in London in 1747. The will opens with > > the common expression of consideration of one's mortality, recommendation > > of soul to God and so on. > > These were standards in most wills, conditioned by the fact they were > proved in Church (of England) courts. As lawyers were paid by the size of > documents, they shoved in up to a dozen of these vaguely pious > expressions before they got down to the nitty-gritty of 'Imprimis I give, > devise > and bequeathe to....' > > It is highly likely, on other grounds, that the > > testator is a Non-conformist in faith, possibly Baptist of some variety. > > > > > Paradoxically, those who were Dissenters often had fewer of the stock > formulaic expressions than others. (And Quakers, of course, would not > swear to adminioster so were allow3ed to 'affirm' they would do so' > > > This one seems somewhat longer than usual, and also refers to "the Elect" > > which is somewhat distinctive. > > That is certainly an expression which I would associate with Particular > Baptists (rather than General ones. They believed that you were only > likely > to be Saved if you were born 'chosen' to be so. I have never understood how > a sect could rec ruit new members, if they were damned from the start, but > I > suppose it did tend to cling on to the existing members and their families, > since if you left, you were 'unelected' and lost your place in heaven. > EVE > > Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians > > in cluding 'Wills Before 1858' > > > Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society > >

I am working with a will written in London in 1747. The will opens with the common expression of consideration of one's mortality, recommendation of soul to God and so on. It is highly likely, on other grounds, that the testator is a Non-conformist in faith, possibly Baptist of some variety. Anyway, I think I have read and cannot now recall the source, that these first paragraph expressions of faith varied to some degree by religion. This one seems somewhat longer than usual, and also refers to "the Elect" which is somewhat distinctive. Does anyone have any knowledge of this topic, and could opine on what forms of this preliminary statement might be more typically associated with someone of Non-conformist beliefs/affiliations?

Thanks Connie,No Google is not helping me much on this, hence my question to the list. The inclusion of the word "draughts" on the back makes me lean towards that being for the "D", but that is not necessarily the case. Australian on-line newspapers indicate that at that time worldwide competitions in draughts were popular, and the organisations were often known as Leagues. Winning moves and game plays were published in newspapers around that time. What I can gather from Google, is that a world draughts organisation was established in 1897. Regards Estelle > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 09:01:54 +0100 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MDX] Medallion inscription - slightly off topic > > Estelle Daniels wrote: > > > > Hello Listers,I am wondering if anyone knows what the initials C. > > W. C. & D. LEAGUE may mean? They are printed on what may be a > > silver medallion or it could be the hanging part of a bar type pin. > > The initials are imprinted in a semi-circular portion on the top of > > the "medallion". In the middle is a raised, almost shield-like > > portion. Reaching upwards to the right and left, from a central > > point at the bottom, going upwards towards the semi-circular part > > are what looks like laurel or fern leaves. These are in cut out > > shapes in the shape of the frond and pressed into the texture of > > the leaf. On the back is the inscription...draughts J S Cope, 1920. > > Just wondering if any wise listers would have any ideas on the > > origin of the medallion; it's inscription, or it's owner? It has > > been found in Queensland, Australia, but perhaps it's family > > origins are in England. > > Hallo > > It sounds as though it was a Draughts (Chequers) League which J S COPE > belonged to in 1920 or which he was awarded in 1920 for winning the > league. > > C. W. C. & D. League could be a place, a company or the games that > made up the league. Do you get any results from a search engine? > > Connie in London > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Listers,I am wondering if anyone knows what the initials C. W. C. & D. LEAGUE may mean? They are printed on what may be a silver medallion or it could be the hanging part of a bar type pin. The initials are imprinted in a semi-circular portion on the top of the "medallion". In the middle is a raised, almost shield-like portion. Reaching upwards to the right and left, from a central point at the bottom, going upwards towards the semi-circular part are what looks like laurel or fern leaves. These are in cut out shapes in the shape of the frond and pressed into the texture of the leaf. On the back is the inscription...draughts J S Cope, 1920. Just wondering if any wise listers would have any ideas on the origin of the medallion; it's inscription, or it's owner? It has been found in Queensland, Australia, but perhaps it's family origins are in England. Thank you for any help. Estelle

Hi Bonnie, You can find all of the mailing lists that come under the umbrella of Rootsweb by going to the page below. http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ Put in the name of the county of interest to you in the box for Find a Mailing List and you should get at least one result if not a long list of results for the county. You can browse and search a given list by selecting one of the results that get and scrolling down to where you see the words Browse or search the archives of the -------list. You will also see the link/s for subscribing to the list/s that interest you. Rootsweb is a worldwise system so there will be lists for other countries besides the countries of the UK. Go to the Rootsweb home page for information about the whole Rootsweb system along with information on all sorts of matters. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ As to the Bugler on board a ship, as Nivard suggested, you could ask on the Mariners Mailing list which you will find on the above Rootsweb mailing list page if you search to find a list Mariners. Someone on the Mariners list will be bound to help you and might give even more information about the Ballarat. Regards Jenny DeAngelis << Wow, there are so many lists and the only lists I know about are at Yahoo, so thanks for that too. I also didn't know that the Ballarat was sunk and that information is good too because someone has come forward claiming they have a George Swain (who was a Bugler on the Ballarat)about the right age but we just can't assume that he is right one. Without DNA, I don't know. I also don't know what a Bugler is, unless a fella that trumpets out the time?>>

It certainly does pay to look at several of the images either side of the one that you find for a member of your family. I found the certificate for the brother of my Gt. Grandfather on the mates and masters certificates. Not only did I find the brother's Master Mariner Certificate but I also found his earlier Mate's certificate. I only found this by going back and forth through the images for several pages. I had known for several years that this brother had become a Master Mariner so was pleased to find his records on the Ancestry site. I did find the record of my Gt. Grandfather's Master mariners certificate and his father's Certificate of Service on the site too but I had already bought copies of their records from the National maritime Museum at Greenwich about 10 years ago. The Certificate of Service, gained in 1850, is different to the Master Mariner's Certificates, gained in 1856 & 1871, because it was gained solely on a man's past service at sea. He did not have to sit an examination as his son/s had to do at a later date because he had been at sea for many years before the examination system was set up. My Gt. Grandfather's record shows that he first went to sea as an apprentice to his father on the ship that his father partly owned. His youngest brother is shown in the 1861 census on board the same ship in that 1861 entry as an apprentice aged 14 to his father, my Gt. Gt Grandfather. My Gt. Grandfather was also on board that ship at that time sailing as Mate to his father. My Gt. grandfather later took over the part ownership of the vessel when his father died in 1862. The younger son I believe later became a boatswain, also known as a bosun. Perhaps one day Bosuns certs., will become available or something with which I can prove this is the same younger son. The Mariner's website and accompanying mailing list are very useful to anyone researching mariner ancestors, not only the UK but around the world too. The site will explain the difference between gaining a Certificate of Service and a Master mariners Certificate obtained by sitting the examination. See the site below where you will find the link for subscribing to the mariners mailing list, part of the rootsweb system of lists. http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ Note, the mariners mailing list "only" deals with mariners and the ships they sailed on and does not deal with passengers. Regards Jenny DeAngelis -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 3:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] New database on Ancestry Masters & Mates certificates1850 -1927 Hi Jenny One of the good things about Ancestrys search is that you can search for any word or name or place I have found it well worth trying a keyword search for even village names as it may highlight some connected men from the same area as your own , even quite remote places often get a mention And like the WW1 service records it pays to view the images before and after the hit Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/09/2012 14:17, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > Hi Nivard, > > Having just read your message below, I went to Ancestry and selected the > Search all records option. I then selected the country as England and the > county as Durham, where some of my family were from and where I have > mariner > ancestors. > > Of course, as a result of such a broad search, I got quite a list of > subjects to choose from. One of these was Master and Mates certificates > 1850-1927, looking at those results shows men from various parts of > England > & Wales who gained their certificates in County Durham. > > It is well worth making similar searches to yours and mine using other > country names to see what comes up as a result of you have mariner > ancestors. > > My husband has some mariners in the Middlesex area in his ancestry so I am > going to try a search for that county too. > > Thankyou for the tip. > Regards > Jenny DeAngelis

Bonnie Cole wrote: > I also didn't know that the Ballarat was sunk and that information is good > too because someone has come forward claiming they have a George Swain (who > was a Bugler on the Ballarat)about the right age but we just can't assume > that he is right one. Without DNA, I don't know. I also don't know what a > Bugler is, unless a fella that trumpets out the time? Hallo A bugler would call out "action stations" or any other commands from the captain/master that required the attention of all the crew. It sounds as though you may have found a cousin. A search engine may give you more information about the Ballarat. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Estelle Daniels wrote: > > Hello Listers,I am wondering if anyone knows what the initials C. > W. C. & D. LEAGUE may mean? They are printed on what may be a > silver medallion or it could be the hanging part of a bar type pin. > The initials are imprinted in a semi-circular portion on the top of > the "medallion". In the middle is a raised, almost shield-like > portion. Reaching upwards to the right and left, from a central > point at the bottom, going upwards towards the semi-circular part > are what looks like laurel or fern leaves. These are in cut out > shapes in the shape of the frond and pressed into the texture of > the leaf. On the back is the inscription...draughts J S Cope, 1920. > Just wondering if any wise listers would have any ideas on the > origin of the medallion; it's inscription, or it's owner? It has > been found in Queensland, Australia, but perhaps it's family > origins are in England. Hallo It sounds as though it was a Draughts (Chequers) League which J S COPE belonged to in 1920 or which he was awarded in 1920 for winning the league. C. W. C. & D. League could be a place, a company or the games that made up the league. Do you get any results from a search engine? Connie in London