Wow thank you so much....I knew some of this info but you've given me a bit I didn't know which will help...One thing I am noticing is that I am not reading the census details enough...I definitely need to be more observant and not skim over information I think is not relevant LOL cheers Sheila HI Sheila, In the 1841 census for Clerkenwell Middlesex I found etc Regards Jenny DeAngelis

what a very helpful site. thank you cheers Sheila For what is and is not on English and Welsh certificates see: http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

thanks again Nivard cheers Sheila Hi again You can cut down the risk a little by ordering the birth certificates with *no* GRO index reference By ticking the box no GRO reference on the order it will enable you to enter qualifying data I would order them stating *if the father is named Ephraim* and leave it at that If the father is so named you will get the certificate, if the father is another name they will refund the charges That way you will only get them if connected Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) the body of the message

Thanks to everyone for this great information, which has saved me money LOL Believe it or not I am actually a marriage celebrant so deal with marriage certificates on a regular basis, but I am in Australia and the rules are obviously different in different countries, and also for different generations . cheers Sheila >SNIP< One small point on your comprehensive reply. The local Registrar forwards the clergymans Quarterly Return to the GRO, rather than making yet another copy. The curch retains two (supposedly identical) registers, each being signed by the parties. When the pair of registers is full, one is retained by the church (and may end up in the local archives), the other is sent to the local Registrar for safekeeping. Until this happens, the local Registrar is unable to issue marriage certificates from that register. A few marriage registers still in use are those issued in 1837, tho' attempts are being made by most local registrars to call them in for closure and issue of new registers. Once the Registrar has a register, he, as well as the church and the Registrar General, can issue certificates. But GRO certs (pre-computerization) are always certified copies of certified copies, never certified copies of entries in registers (with a few exceptions where the GRO does have the registers). Mike Foster's two part work, "Comedy of Errors" remains the standard work with many illuminating examples of how the registraon system worked (and failed to work) in practice. Kind regards, John Henley 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks... I had looked up this record but couldn't read it properly. cheers Sheila >From the Ancestry/LMA records I see there is a baptism for a Tryphena Sparrow on 9 Apr 1874 at St Paul Clerkenwell. A birthdate is given of 20 Jan 1863, and the address is 26 Little Sutton St. The father is unnamed as noted as Dead, and the mother is Elizabeth. Another entry on the same page does name a father even though he is also noted as dead. A baptism at age 11 is not so unusual, perhaps she was about to go to work, be an apprentice or even go to school. Cannot identify her in 1861. JK

Thanks Nivard. I know that Tryphenia had a brother Frederick who married the Patience Sparks who was the other witness on the certificate. He was a widower then and it is possible he is the Frederick Robert mentioned but I haven't been able to connect them. I think I will have to apply for both Tryphenia's and Frederick's birth certificates and see if they come up with the same parents. unless anybody can suggest a better way cheers Sheila -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] Birth certificates and Ancestry.com Hi Sheila The marriage is the actual one as signed so you will not get any more from the GRO or local copy Our marriage registrations do not include the mother except on very odd occasions for an illegitimite childs marriage The way to get the parents would be to obtain the birth certificate England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Tryphenia Sparrow Name: Tryphenia Sparrow Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1863 Registration district: Clerkenwell Inferred County: London Volume: 1b Page: 561 The Frederick SPARROW as a witness fits in with the right family as Ephraim & Elizabeth had a son Frederick Robert in 1849 Frederick appears to follow his fathers footsteps for occupation in 1881 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/10/2012 12:04, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > It is the marriage between Tryphenia Sparrow(b 1863) and Edward Wright (b > 1862) on 29 Jun 1880 at Clerkenwell St Paul. I was hoping for a bit more > information about her parents as although It tells me her father is > Ephrain > (m) Sparrow I can't find any information to link her to the Ephraim > Sparrow > I find in the census lists. > > > > cheers Sheila ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Michael AS you noted in your original post, Saxby & Farmer later became founding parts of the Westinghouse Brake & Saxby Signal Co - the Saxby part of the name was dropped in 1935. I wanted to add to the other reply on here that a significant amount of historical documentation about the Company is held by the Chippenham Museum & Heritage Centre, which may be a better or at least equally important source than the Wiltshire & Swindon History Centre in Chippenham. It may be worth contacting them to enquire whether they have records of Saxby & Farmer or not. Unfortunately the book that details the history of WBS by the late O.S. Nock "A Hundred Years of Speed with Safety" covers "only" the period from 1881 which would post-date your ancestor's time, but may still be of interest. You may also find the following web site of interest: http://www.polunnio.co.uk/ as it covers history and associated publications of the constituent companies. I have no family connection with either company, apart from the fact that I worked for WBS (or Wes as it was often known) in Chippenham for many years and have always had an interest in the history of the company. My wife also worked in the Drawing Office, so I suppose I do have a family connection in that sense :-) Jon Baker -----Original Message----- I'm trying to trace anybody who had ancestors who work for the Saxby & Farmer Signal Works. John Saxby worked for the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway which began in 1852. In 1856 Saxby took out a patent for a signal lamp that was linked to the railways point and manufactured his new signals in Brighton but left the railway in 1862, moved to Kilburn in London where he joined forces with John Stinson Farmer and opened a factory in what was then Kilburn Lane and later became Canterbury Road. The company was amalgamated with others in 1920 to form Westinghouse Brake and Saxby Signal Company. My Gt. Gt Grandfather was pattern maker until his death in May 1871 Michael

Thanks for your help. much appreciated. cheers Sheila -----Original Message----- From: Andy Hedgcock Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] Birth certificates and Ancestry.com English marriage certificates will only have details of the father - that is if they were known. If no one's managed to find further info for you I can have a look when I get home tonight. Cheers Andy

It is the marriage between Tryphenia Sparrow(b 1863) and Edward Wright (b 1862) on 29 Jun 1880 at Clerkenwell St Paul. I was hoping for a bit more information about her parents as although It tells me her father is Ephrain (m) Sparrow I can't find any information to link her to the Ephraim Sparrow I find in the census lists. cheers Sheila -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MDX] Birth certificates and Ancestry.com Hi Sheila If you give the names and places we can double check for you but if it is a marriage registration from a Parish Register it will be the same detail if you order from the GRO or local office The copy on Ancestry is generally more desirable at it is may be signed by the people getting married A copy from the GRO would not be signed by them and may have errors that creep in as its a transcript of information sent from the local office The local office copy may or may not have the signatures of the couple As I said previously if you supply the names and details we can confirm the above for you Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/10/2012 11:39, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > I have a paid subscription on Ancestry which gives me access to what > appears to be a copy of the marriage register for my great > grandmother. If I order the official marriage certificate will it > give me any more information? The marriage took place in 1880 > > cheers Sheila ************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have a paid subscription on Ancestry which gives me access to what appears to be a copy of the marriage register for my great grandmother. If I order the official marriage certificate will it give me any more information? The marriage took place in 1880 cheers Sheila

Bucks Genealogical Society presents a fasinating talk about the Welsh drovers. KEEPING UP WITH JONES THE DROVER by Bruce Smitgh this Saturday Oct 13. Many hundreds of Welsh drovers took their cattle across the county to sell in London - and some of them couldn't or wouldn't face the long trudge back home to the Valleys -so they staqyed put in Bucks. We have loads of Joneses and Evanses and Williamses and even the finely named Cadwallader Coker. The talk is at 3pm on Saturday, and if you come early, from 2pm, you will be able to consult a mass of books, CDs and fiches about Wales too. Not to mention help with translation of welsh from our Eryl. VENUE iois the Southcourt Commuinity Centre, Prebendal Ave, Aylesbury. Approach from east via inner ring road, turning off on to the Oxford Rd, A418, pass Aylesbury College (mini-roundabout) and turn left at the traffic lights into Churchill Ave, then left at the nearby mini-roundabout into Prebendal Ave. The Centre is shortly left with ample [parking. >From the west, pass the first set of traffic lights on the 418, turn round at Aylesbury college and double back to the lights, turn left and left. Contact information [email protected] Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

HI Sheila, In the 1841 census for Clerkenwell Middlesex I found Ephraim Sparrow aged 25 occ. Vellum Binder not born in the county, i.e not born Middlesex, with wife Elizabeth aged 20 and daughter Mary Ann aged 5. Ages of all those aged 15yrs and over were rounded down to the nearest 5 years in this census and only whether or not a person had been born in the county in which they were currently residing was recorded, with answer Yes (Y) or No(N) instead of actual birth places. the ref. for this 1841 census entry is HO107 piece 650 Book/ED10 folio 60 page 24 Finsbury Clerkenwell, abode is Cold Bath Square. This ephraim's occupation agrees with that in the baptism of son Frederick Robert at Clerkenwell. In the 1851 census for St. Pancras Grays Inn Lane, Northumberland Terrace, Ephraim Sparrow is aged 36 married occ. Vellum Binder born Newcastle Upon Tyne Northumberland Elizabeth wife age 34 born Whitechapel MDX Mary Ann dau. aged 14 born City of London Ephraim son 8, b. Christ church Surrey, Elizabeth dau. 9 b.Clerkenwell MDX alfred son 7 b. Christ Church Surrey Emily dau. 5 b. ditto Frederick son 1 b. ditto Alice (?) dau. 2mths(?) b. ditto (she over on the next page). the ref. for this entry is HO107 piece 1495 folio 603 page 45 The 1861 census ref. RG9 piece 190 folio 74 page 31 Clerkenwell, shows Ephraim Sparrow head marr. age 46 occ (----) Book Binder b. Newcastle U. Tyne Elizabeth wife age 44 b whitechapel MDX Ephraim son 18 Chair Carver born Christ Church Surrey Alfred son 17 Errand Lad b. ditto Emily dau. 15 Staymaker b. ditto Frederick 11 scholar b ditto Alice dau. 10 scholar b. ditto Rebecca dau. 5 scholar b. Clerkenwell MDX FreeBMD shows a death in March Qtr. 1872 at Holborn volume 1b page 476 Ephraim Sparrow aged 57. This aged of 57 in 1872 puts Ephraim born about 1815 which agrees with his age in the 1851 census. Baptism St. Mary Lambeth Surrey 1837 Aug. 20th , born 4th Aug. 1837 Ephraim son Ephraim & Elizabeth Sparrow abode Pulteney Street fathers occ.Vellum Binder. Baptisms St. John the Evangelist Lambeth Surrey 1849 May 6th Emily born Sept. 1845, Frederick Robert b. 12th April 1849 & Alice b. 29th ? 1847 children of Ephraim & Elizabeth Sparrow abode Bear Lane fathers occ. Vellum Binder. I found the marriage in 1862 of Elizabeth Rose Sparrow to Frederick wm. Clowes where she gives her father as Ephraim Sparrow Book Binder. None of this ties Tryphenia Sparrow to Ephraim as his daughter but if you bought her birth certificate it should show her father's name on there. If it was Ephraim Sparrow then his name should appear on the certificate as he was still alive, it seems, in 1863 if the above death I found is the right one. I found on the IGI at the family search site the marriage of Ephraim sparrow to an Elizabeth Cooper in 1835 at St. Clement Danes Westminster. This might fit with the 1841 census entry I found where they had a daughter Mary Ann born about 1836 or so. A birth certificate of one of the children should show the mother's maiden name.. If she is shown as Elizabeth Sparrow formerly Cooper then you could try to find the marriage in the IGI and then get a copy from the parish register to see if it shows anything further. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<Thanks Nivard. I know that Tryphenia had a brother Frederick who married the Patience Sparks who was the other witness on the certificate. He was a widower then and it is possible he is the Frederick Robert mentioned but I haven't been able to connect them. I think I will have to apply for both Tryphenia's and Frederick's birth certificates and see if they come up with the same parents. unless anybody can suggest a better way>>

Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > I have a paid subscription on Ancestry which gives me access to what appears to be a copy of the marriage register for my great grandmother. If I order the official marriage certificate will it give me any more information? The marriage took place in 1880 One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is that ordering a certificate through Ancestry will cost you considerably more than the same certificate would through the GRO direct. Ancestry have to order their certificates from the GRO. The only other official source is the local register office. There is no other alternative source for births or deaths. Marriages, as has been said, can be found in the marriage registers, many of which for the London area (excluding in the main the City of Westminster) are available on Ancestry. From the GRO it would cost you 9.25GBP, postage paid anywhere in the world. For what is and is not on English and Welsh certificates see: http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Ashcott, Shapwick, Greinton and Clutton, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

Hi again You can cut down the risk a little by ordering the birth certificates with *no* GRO index reference By ticking the box no GRO reference on the order it will enable you to enter qualifying data I would order them stating *if the father is named Ephraim* and leave it at that If the father is so named you will get the certificate, if the father is another name they will refund the charges That way you will only get them if connected Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/10/2012 13:36, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > Thanks Nivard. > I know that Tryphenia had a brother Frederick who married the Patience > Sparks who was the other witness on the certificate. He was a widower then > and it is possible he is the Frederick Robert mentioned but I haven't been > able to connect them. I think I will have to apply for both Tryphenia's and > Frederick's birth certificates and see if they come up with the same > parents. unless anybody can suggest a better way > > cheers Sheila

HI Sheila, English marriage certificate never give anything other than the fathers names and occupations of the bride and groom, no mothers names appear on marriage certificates. If you have the original image from the parish register then that is the best copy of the marriage entry you could ever have as it is what the couple signed, or made their marks to, at the time they married. A copy of that parish register entry would be sent, by the vicar conducting the marriage, to the Registrars office who then makes another copy to send on to the General Register Office, GRO, who then make up the GRO index that we can access on line. Making copies in this way can leave things open to errors creeping in, as Nivard said. You are lucky to have the image of the original marriage register. How many Ephraim Sparrows appear in the censuses? I doubt there are too many of them and there would only be one or two Tryphenia Sparrows I suspect. I think you would find it fairly easy to tie them together as father and daughter if you check how many people by those names appear in the various censuses. Look at her father's occupation on the marriage and see if it compares with his occupation in the censuses. Men did sometimes change occupation but if he had a trade then you might be lucky that he carried on the same trade all his life. Regards Jenny DeAngelis. <<It is the marriage between Tryphenia Sparrow(b 1863) and Edward Wright (b 1862) on 29 Jun 1880 at Clerkenwell St Paul. I was hoping for a bit more information about her parents as although It tells me her father is Ephrain (m) Sparrow I can't find any information to link her to the Ephraim Sparrow I find in the census lists.>>

Hi Michael You may or may not be aware that Saxby and Farmer became part of the Westinghouse Brake & Signal Co. The company had premises in Chippenham in Wiltshire and a lot of info may be held at the Wiltshire records office again located in Chippenham. Their address etc will no on the Internet. Regards Chris Longdon Sent from my iPod On 10 Oct 2012, at 10:01, Michael <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I'm trying to trace anybody who had ancestors who work for the Saxby & > Farmer Signal Works. > > John Saxby worked for the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway which > began in 1852. In 1856 Saxby took out a patent for a signal lamp that > was linked to the railways point and manufactured his new signals in > Brighton but left the railway in 1862, moved to Kilburn in London where > he joined forces with John Stinson Farmer and opened a factory in what > was then Kilburn Lane and later became Canterbury Road. > > The company was amalgamated with others in 1920 to form Westinghouse > Brake and Saxby Signal Company. > > My Gt. Gt Grandfather was pattern maker until his death in May 1871 > > > Michael > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 10/10/2012 1:08 PM, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > HI Sheila,>SNIP< > If you have the original image from the parish > register then that is the best copy of the marriage entry you could ever > have as it is what the couple signed, or made their marks to, at the time > they married. A copy of that parish register entry would be sent, by the > vicar conducting the marriage, to the Registrars office who then makes > another copy to send on to the General Register Office, GRO, who then make > up the GRO index that we can access on line. Making copies in this way can > leave things open to errors creeping in, as Nivard said. >SNIP< One small point on your comprehensive reply. The local Registrar forwards the clergymans Quarterly Return to the GRO, rather than making yet another copy. The curch retains two (supposedly identical) registers, each being signed by the parties. When the pair of registers is full, one is retained by the church (and may end up in the local archives), the other is sent to the local Registrar for safekeeping. Until this happens, the local Registrar is unable to issue marriage certificates from that register. A few marriage registers still in use are those issued in 1837, tho' attempts are being made by most local registrars to call them in for closure and issue of new registers. Once the Registrar has a register, he, as well as the church and the Registrar General, can issue certificates. But GRO certs (pre-computerization) are always certified copies of certified copies, never certified copies of entries in registers (with a few exceptions where the GRO does have the registers). Mike Foster's two part work, "Comedy of Errors" remains the standard work with many illuminating examples of how the registraon system worked (and failed to work) in practice. Kind regards, John Henley

> I have a paid subscription on Ancestry which gives me access to what appears to be a copy of the marriage register Access to facsimiles of the 1880 marriage registers in London and some other counties will give you exactly what you would find on a bought certificate from ONS so don't waste your money. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

Hi Sheila The marriage is the actual one as signed so you will not get any more from the GRO or local copy Our marriage registrations do not include the mother except on very odd occasions for an illegitimite childs marriage The way to get the parents would be to obtain the birth certificate England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Tryphenia Sparrow Name: Tryphenia Sparrow Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1863 Registration district: Clerkenwell Inferred County: London Volume: 1b Page: 561 The Frederick SPARROW as a witness fits in with the right family as Ephraim & Elizabeth had a son Frederick Robert in 1849 Frederick appears to follow his fathers footsteps for occupation in 1881 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/10/2012 12:04, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: > It is the marriage between Tryphenia Sparrow(b 1863) and Edward Wright (b > 1862) on 29 Jun 1880 at Clerkenwell St Paul. I was hoping for a bit more > information about her parents as although It tells me her father is Ephrain > (m) Sparrow I can't find any information to link her to the Ephraim Sparrow > I find in the census lists. > > > > cheers Sheila

>From the Ancestry/LMA records I see there is a baptism for a Tryphena Sparrow on 9 Apr 1874 at St Paul Clerkenwell. A birthdate is given of 20 Jan 1863, and the address is 26 Little Sutton St. The father is unnamed as noted as Dead, and the mother is Elizabeth. Another entry on the same page does name a father even though he is also noted as dead. A baptism at age 11 is not so unusual, perhaps she was about to go to work, be an apprentice or even go to school. Cannot identify her in 1861. JK On 10 October 2012 12:04, Sheila and Brian Longden <[email protected]> wrote: > It is the marriage between Tryphenia Sparrow(b 1863) and Edward Wright (b > 1862) on 29 Jun 1880 at Clerkenwell St Paul. I was hoping for a bit more > information about her parents as although It tells me her father is Ephrain > (m) Sparrow I can't find any information to link her to the Ephraim Sparrow > I find in the census lists. > > > > cheers Sheila > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nivard Ovington > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:49 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MDX] Birth certificates and Ancestry.com > > Hi Sheila > > If you give the names and places we can double check for you but if it > is a marriage registration from a Parish Register it will be the same > detail if you order from the GRO or local office > > The copy on Ancestry is generally more desirable at it is may be signed > by the people getting married > > A copy from the GRO would not be signed by them and may have errors that > creep in as its a transcript of information sent from the local office > > The local office copy may or may not have the signatures of the couple > > As I said previously if you supply the names and details we can confirm > the above for you > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 10/10/2012 11:39, Sheila and Brian Longden wrote: >> I have a paid subscription on Ancestry which gives me access to what >> appears to be a copy of the marriage register for my great >> grandmother. If I order the official marriage certificate will it >> give me any more information? The marriage took place in 1880 >> >> cheers Sheila > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in > CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > **MEANINGFUL Subject Lines - who, what, where, when, with SURNAMES in CAPITAL letters** > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message