Jean, First, all the 'facts' you note below could be correct. Second, you might be dealing with two families, one your correct one, the other transient who showed up in the Lutheran Church. Secondary records can be dangerous to use without going back to the original. Third, I'd try to check the original documents on film if possible. You might learn alot from the records and the adjoining records on the film. You might find a temporary situation of Reformed folks appearing in the Lutheran records. Or maybe the wife was Lutheran and they family started there and moved later. All these things I've run into in Hagerstown and elsewhere. I have two contemporary John Herr families in Hagerstown: the Lutheran family and the Reformed family. At least I hope they were two families. Otherwise they were one husband with a wife and a girlfriend and 25 kids around town! I have had family records recording marriage dates with the year conveniently moved back one year in a family genealogy book to make the next 50,000 descendants "legit" and not the descendants of, shall we say, oh well. You get the picture. Only the original church record of 1769 in Lancaster PA proved the point. Finally, remain cautious of the LDS records. Their films of original records are primary records and can usually be believed except for original errors! But the extracted records are, in many cases, a mess. Good luck! John M. Rhodes -----Original Message----- From: jean stamm <tiderow@yahoo.com> To: MDWASHIN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:20:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [MDWASHIN] Re:Reformed Congregation = which religion? Susan: you say that the Refermed Congregation and the St. John's Church were different, if I read your response to Joe correctly then I have a question. I have family that was from Hagertown in the late 1700's early 1800's. the first son born to my line in Hagerstown was born/baptised in St. John's. Some four years later they had another son born in the Reformed Congregation. Now, my information on the reformed congregation baptism was based on a LDS record in Salt Lake City Utah. But there is an exact date and not a circa. So if they are different church's why would the family have children born in two differnent congregations? Assuming that the LDS location is accurate! By the way, its interesting, my 3rd great grandfather Jacob Stamm had a son, Adam that went to Coshocton County and married Elizabeth Emerich. The rest of the family moved to Indiana then to Wayne County Ohio then back to Indiana. Thanks Jean Stamm --- OhSuzan419@aol.com wrote: > Ok Joe -- I'll take a stab at this, noting first of > all that there are enough > regional differences in any given situation to make > what I am about to tell > you largely inoperative. > > First of all, St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church > is the historical > Lutheran parish in Hagerstown (which used to be > called Elizabethtown). Many of my > ancestors were members of this church from about > 1780 - 1800, before they moved > to Ohio. > > Oftentimes (especially, it seems to me, in German > wills) you will see > reference to the Evangelical Church. In this > context, it would mean the Lutheran > Church. So if your ancestors were "consistent > members of the Evangelical Church" > in Hagerstown, St. John's Lutheran is where you > would have expected them to > give their money. > > The Reformed Church had nothing to do with the > Lutheran Church; in fact, many > Lutherans back then had less-than-friendly feelings > toward the Reformed. They > are both Protestant churches, but spring from two > entirely different strains > of Protestantism. To the best of my knowledge, the > Reformed Church would have > been followers of Calvin or Zwingli. The Lutherans > were followers of -- > Luther!! And as an ex-seminarian, I can tell you > that Luther (whose use of language > was very --umm -- "colorful") had no use whatsoever > for these folks, and said > so with great vehemence at every opportunity. > > There are some cases on record however, where at one > point and probably out > of necessity, Lutherans and Reformed shared the same > building. But especially > as populations grew, this practice became less > common. > > I don't think the Reformed had quite the degree of > disdain for the Lutherans > as vice-versa, but I don't think either of them > liked Catholics very much. > Individuals in earlier times tended to marry within > the religion of their family. > Indeed, as I have come to understand it, in Germany > and much of Europe, one's > religion is/was not just a matter of "which church > you go to," but actually > extends to which town you live in, who your friends > are, and even who your head > of state is. > > For example, my husband, who is a Russian German (a > specific ethnic group) > was born to Lutheran family in Russia. They lived in > a town called > Grosliebenthal. Everyone in Grosliebenthal was > Lutheran. And German. If you were a Catholic > in that area, you lived in another town, called > Kleineliebenthal. You didn't > hang out with people from the other town. > So you see, his identity as Lutheran includes > religious, family, and civic > components -- a far cry from what we think of today > as being "just" a religious > choice. > > I believe that was more-or-less the context from > which our ancestors emerged > when they came to America. I don't believe that > religious intermarriage was > ever legally forbidden in the post-Revolutionary > U.S.(although the colony of > Maryland was originally Catholic, so I may be wrong > about that), but I do think > it was locally frowned upon -- and some places were > probably "frownier" than > others. The parents and pastors could and did bring > all sorts of pressures to > bear on their kids to keep them in the fold. But of > course, we didn't segregate > people in separate villages by their religious > preference, so over time, you > did inevitably find intermarriage and conversion -- > again, until fairly > recently, a uniquely American experience. > > As for your relatives, it seems very plausible to me > that some of them could > have been Lutherans, and then married Reformed, and > then become Catholic. > > To show how recently this issue about religious > intermarriage was still an > issue among American Protestants, I would give you > the example of my grandmother > (who died in 1983 at the age of 90). One of her > "deathbed" confessions to us > -- which she clearly wanted to get off her chest -- > was that she had not been > born a Lutheran, but was, rather, a Presbyterian > (those "Reformed" folk you > were talking about), and became a Lutheran only when > she married my grandfather. > This had honestly lain heavily on her soul all her > adult life; it was > something she needed to confess before she could > meet her maker. > > I can't help but wonder what she would think about > the situation in those > churches today, where they not only recognize each > other's rites, but also are > entitled to hire one another's pastors, if they so > choose. (She would be > s-o-o-o-o-o happy to know I married a "real" > Lutheran!) > > Susan Kundert > Coshocton, OH > > > ==== MDWASHIN Mailing List ==== > The OFFICIAL website for this list is: > http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/MD/washington/ > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about > your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the > last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > test'; "> __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ==== MDWASHIN Mailing List ==== The OFFICIAL website for this list is: http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/MD/washington/ ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx