I am mostly replying to Redell Reed, but I'm sending this message to the list as there may be some comments other than mine on John and Frances' family. I am not looking at my papers so I may not be exact. Comments: The births of the first four children of John and Frances are recorded in the Parish records. I wrote to the Archives at Annapolis for copies of the birth records and Land records. The Parish is now located at Harford. Harford was not formed until after the time John and Frances left. Most of the records were in Baltimore Co. which part later became Harford. The first records I found were after the birth of Rachel. They were Land Records. I say the first 4 children as there appear to be more children as you would expect. I'm pretty sure there was a daughter named Mary Ann. Records in Johnston and Wake Co., North Carolina suggest it. Descendants of Mary Ann say her name was given as Muckle which I find in my branch of the family. She married John Belk. It appears (unproven by me) that sons, John and Archibald were both killed in the French and Indian War in 1860. Their father, John lived a few years longer and sold his land and home place for a fairly cheap price to John Belk, Mary Ann's husband. He gave other things (personal possessions) to John Belk Jr. by deed of gift. (that is what I remember). John Mackelroy still lived on the place after it became the property of John Belk. Somewhere there is a deed where a James Mackelroy (actually they spelled it McIlroy a lot of the time in Johnston and Wake Counties. His wife, Ruth also signed it as a witness. Some have suggested that there was another son named James. I cannot say that there was not. I did think James might be a son and I have really not changed my mind completely. I recently did an application for the Daughters of the American Colonists, This time period begins at July 3, 1776 and extends back as early as we can find ancestors who fit the criteria. In gathering service for my most recent ancestor, Avington Muckleroy, son of Archibald, (other spellings - same family line) whose service was that he served as a Constable in Johnston Co., NC by 1770, I used the books on Johnston and Wake Co., NC by Weynette Parks Haun to establish places and dates and notes regarding this event in my database. I may not have every event each Mackelroy was involved in, but I certainly have a good start. If someone is interested in a particular family group, I will be glad to send an attachment from my database. They would need to be able to read an Adobe pdf file to get the best view. Back to the children. Since the family was very good about naming after each other, it was occasionally difficult to figure out just which person the information belonged to. A man had to be 21 to own property and hold office or serve on a jury, etc. They could be a witness to a deed or will after their 16th birthday (maybe 14 in some instances). Their father had to pay a tax when their son reached 16. A person no longer had to pay a tax after they reached 45. (This is not necessarily true in all colonial states, but it is in most I think.) After sorting through all the impossibilities as well as the possibilities, I tend to believe that this James who married Ruth is a grandson, son of John and Rebecca. He witnessed a deed for John along with his wife Ruth. I have no further information on him. I have that he was born about 1744. I keep an open mind and would love to have other thoughts. Incidentally, it appears that Rebecca was a Sims. I do not have positive proof, but the Sims folks claim her and there are Sims witnessing deeds and living as neighbors. If someone wants what I based it on, I can try to dig it out. About Archibald's wife, Catherine (thought to be a Simpson), this is probably correct, but it is based on the fact that Archibald and Catherine's daughter, Frances who married John Baptist Shaw, named their oldest son, Simpson. My source, Judy Barnett, says she has talked with Shaw researchers through the years and the name does not appear to have come from the Shaw side of the family. Frances is thought to have been a Durham. Since her husband, John, was appointed an Administrator of the Durham Estate, I think it is most likely true. I found this in a book on Baltimore Co. Families: "James Durham came to the colony of Maryland sometime before 1692, for it was in that year he was listed as a table (?) (tithable?) living on the North side of Gunpower Hundred. In June of 1693, he and wife, Mary Staley), sold 250 acres to John Durham. On March 29, 1725, administration bond was posted on the estate of James Durham by John McElroy along with Archibald Rollo and George Rigdon. The estate was finally settled in June of 1726." Unfortunately, the Will of James Durham does not seem to name a daughter, Francis. The spelling of the name in early times seemed interchangeable for males and females. I did see something regarding the Durham and Staley families where there is a son named Francis who was not heard from later I'm not sure where I saw this. I find this a puzzle. I have been told it has been proven, and I think it likely, but I cannot find actual proof. I hope some of you younger researchers can find the answer to this puzzle. Some of you may have seen other other Muckleroys (my mother's family name) or Mackelroys. There is a Patrick Muckleroy early in Virginia. He married the widow Youell. I can't connect him to anyone. Other researchers who have followed him say they could find no connection. He was one of 3 husbands of the widow Youell. They had one daughter, Dinah Muckleroy. David Muckleroy (Family Adventures) found some years ago, another John Mackelroy in an early time frame in New Hampshire. I found a reference this past week, a family he married into. His wife was not Francis and he lived in New Hampshire. I have not put him in my "unknown" section of my database yet, but I did put the information in my "favorites." If anyone wants to follow this up, I will endeaver to find it. This is getting long. - After John and his family left Baltimore Co., MD, they do not actually appear for about 10 years until they pop up in Craven Co., NC which became Johnston which became Wake. Rachel and Avington Phelps were found in Orange County, Virgina before moving to NC and one William's sons, named John (he became a Baptist Preacher) preached in Virginia. Avington, son of Archibald and his wife Sarah Dawson had their first son's birth recorded in the Douglass Register. The Parish was located in Goochland Co., VA, St. James Northam Parish. Sarah's father and Grandfather lived on Licking Hole Creek, before her father, William Dawson moved to Johnston Co., NC. The point of the above was that they likely migrated across Virginia. I think I hit most of the spots. I hope some of you are doing research into some things that were unavailable when most of the earliest research was done. Betty