> At 05:10 PM 9/3/02 -0400, Susan E. Roser wrote: > >Just to confirm what others have already hinted at - the parentage of > >William White is unknown, as is the identity of his wife, Susanna. As for > >her being a Fuller, the sister of brothers Dr. Samuel Fuller and Edward > >Fuller of the Mayflower - this is completely false based on the available > >information. I covered this topic in "Mayflower Births & Deaths", 2:486, > >fn.#1, however if anyone is interested, I will post the info here. > > A recent opinion by a well-respected Pilgrim scholar, Dr. Jeremy Dupertuis > Bangs, appears in, "Notes from Leiden: Another Look at the Identity of > Edward Winslow's Wife, Susanna (?Fuller) White," _New England Historical > and Genealogical Register_, vol. 154 (2000), pp. 109-118. Basically, he > concludes that, while there were two William White individuals in Leiden, > it is still possible that the one who married Ann Fuller, sister of Samuel, > could have been the one who came on the "Mayflower" and died in Plymouth. > Furthermore he says that the widow Susanna White who married Edward Winslow > could still be identical to Ann (Fuller) White. He also points out that > there is neither proof nor disproof either way. The records simply allow > either of the two interpretations (and possibly others!). > > Regards, > > Robert _______________ Robert, Thank you for reminding me of the article - I've just read it over to refresh my memory. Dr. Bangs did a superb job of restating the facts and suggesting certain interpretations, however he did not prove the question one way or the other. In fact, in the next issue of the NEHGR was a note to readers entitled "Oh, Susanna..." whereby it was stated: "Unfortunately, some readers were left with the impression that Dr. Bangs was trying to prove that Edward Winslow married an Ann Fuller who was many years his senior. Such is not the case...After pulling together all the information he could find in the Leiden records, he restated the conflicting arguments for and against traditional identifications of Mrs. Winslow. Some of his comments were definitely in the spirit of devil's advocate." There are problems in identifying Susanna as Ann Fuller which I outline in Mayflower Births & Deaths, 2:486, #1. 1) Ann Fuller, dau of Robert and sister of Samuel & Edward Fuller, was baptized 22 Apr. 1577 - Edward Winslow was baptized 28 Oct. 1595. This would make her 18 years older than Edward. Even if we accepted that fact - it would mean that she bore him children when she was in her 50's. (And, it would mean she was about 38 when her first child with William White was born.) Any time we encounter these types of unusual occurences in genealogy a red flag immediately goes up. 2) There IS a marriage record in Leiden for a William White & Ann Fuller, dated 11 Feb. 1612, however there was at least one other man by the name of William White in Leiden who was living there after "our" William White had already left. Therefore there is another "contender" for the marriage to Ann Fuller. 3) The will of Robert Fuller, dated 19 May 1614, mentions daughter Ann "Fuller" not Ann (or Susanna) "White" - this is two years after the above marriage to William White <NEHGR 55:415-6> So, according to this will, there must have been another "contender" for Ann Fuller in Leiden as well. [NOTE: It is MF 5:7 which cites NEHGR and states that daughter Ann Fuller was mentioned in Robert's will. In his article, Dr. Bangs states that she was NOT mentioned in the will. Unfortunately, my NEHGR CD does not work so I can't check 55:415 to see who is right.] 4) The famous letter from Edward Winslow to "uncle Mr. Robert Jackson", dated 30 Oct. 1623, which states: "Almost two yeares since I wrote to my father in law declaring the death of his soon White & the continued health of his daughter and her two children". <NEHGR 109:242> Since Robert Fuller died in 1614, how could Winslow have written him in 1621? 5) On the other side of the coin is the marriage record of Samuel Fuller to Agnes Carpenter in 1613 - one of the witnesses was "Willem Hoyt" his brother-in-law. Dr. Bangs suggests that "Hoyt" was a rendition of "White". Note that one of the other witnesses was "Agnijs Weyt" (Agnes White) - the spelling of which is much closer which makes me wonder why, in the same document, it wasn't spelled the same way if it was William White who was the witness. The MF Winslow book [5:7] says it is "highly unlikely, if not impossible" that Susanna was Ann Fuller. The MF White book [13:2] states Susanna was "not the sister of Dr. Samuel Fuller as is often claimed" and goes on to state that there is no proof that the William White in Leiden was the same William White in Plymouth, saying "A critical examination of Leiden sources casts heavy doubt on this assumption". Susan E. Roser www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

NEHGR 55:415-416 "Norfolk Archdeaconry Court, Norwich" "Register, 1614; folio 259." " Roberde Fuller, of the parish of Redenhall, yeoman, will dated 19 May, 1614, proved 31 May, 1614 . . ." Includes: "To daughter Ann Fuller, twenty pounds." Also: "The rest of my chattels to be divided and half to be given to my wife, the other half among my four children, viz., Edward, Ann, Elizabeth and Mary Fuller." Jim Bullock Littleton, CO -----Original Message----- From: Susan E. Roser [mailto:roser@iprimus.ca] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 5:59 AM To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Fw: [MFLR] More on William & Susanna ( ) White . . . 3) The will of Robert Fuller, dated 19 May 1614, mentions daughter Ann "Fuller" not Ann (or Susanna) "White" - this is two years after the above marriage to William White <NEHGR 55:415-6> So, according to this will, there must have been another "contender" for Ann Fuller in Leiden as well. [NOTE: It is MF 5:7 which cites NEHGR and states that daughter Ann Fuller was mentioned in Robert's will. In his article, Dr. Bangs states that she was NOT mentioned in the will. Unfortunately, my NEHGR CD does not work so I can't check 55:415 to see who is right.] . . .