It's a nice example, because it doesn't involve any old-fashioned spelling. "wonderful" here indicates something like one way people now use "amazing" - and not implying something positive. It's wonderful in the sense of inspiring much wonder (like, what the hell were you guys thinking?), and then "worthily distasted" is consistent with that sentiment and not in contradiction to it. However, if an editor were to put in "what the hell were you guys thinking?" it might be clearer, but it would no longer be Bradford. nice problem. Although I haven't seen it, I think that Caleb Johnson has produced a modern (but not modernized) full edition of Bradford in order, and that's likely to be the best available text for ordinary use. It might have a glossary, but I don't know. Jeremy Bangs Leiden Linda Smith <smit8698@bellsouth.net> wrote: >Thanks for the tip about the Morison book. I haven't seen it, of >course, but if Jeremy is accurate in his assessment of it, then I would >agree that it would have been much better to keep it in order just like >Bradford wrote it. However, if one keeps that in mind and tries to use >it for reference, it should be a lot of help. It isn't just the >spelling that is difficult for me; it is the phraseology and the old >manner of speaking. An example is the sentence from 'one of Mr. >Weston's letters' : "That you sent no lading in the ship is wonderful, >and worthily distasted." I believe he is referring to the fact that the >Mayflower returned to England without being loaded with goods for the >merchant adventurers, but I still don't understand that sentence. >'Wonderful' and 'worthily distasted' seem contradictory to me, so it >doesn't make sense. . Undoubtedly, that's because I am unfamiliar with >how those words and phrases were used in the 17th century. There are >many phrases such as that which contain old terminology that is lost in >today's vernacular. I wish someone would translate it in the proper >order, text, etc., just like it was meant to be read, but with today's >language, spelling, and grammar. >I wish also that someone would translate the Robinson sermons and other >related materials the same way. I think it would help a lot in >understanding the mindset of the day, which, (I agree with Jeremy) was >VERY important and contains lessons that we would do well to pay >attention to and learn from today. It could be done in a book in which >the old and new were side by side, even, so it could be easily >referenced if desired. At any rate, I'm probably wishing for the moon >..... > >Thanks again for the Morison tip; I shall purchase a copy! > >Bangsflynn@cs.com wrote: >> Samuel Eliot Morison considered the Pilgrims "of slight importance in their own time." He also proclaimed that “The insignificance of the Plymouth Colony in the colonial era is one {issue} upon which almost all American historians are agreed.” >> >> (I happen to be in the minority not in agreement there.) >> >> His view explains why he re-arranged the text of Bradford's history Of Plymouth Plantation, placing over a quarter of it at the end, thus destroying Bradford's narrative order and explicitly indicating that the religious and financial history Bradford found significant was in Morison's view uninteresting to the modern reader. >> >> I haven't decided yet whether or not to modernize the spelling of quotations that will be included in my book on the Pilgrims. I prefer retaining the old spelling. But some people find the barrier that this creates to be off-putting. There is, I think, some value in taking the effort to become familiar with the ways of speech (and thought) that the Pilgrims familiarly used. On the other hand, a friend of mine who is an expert on this period and has both written about it and edited manuscripts thinks that it is in keeping with the spirit of the seventeenth century to modernize the spelling in order, like the Pilgrims, to attempt to tell the story in a plain style. >> >> He may be right. But Morison was not, in editing the presentation all out of shape. >> And to make it worse, the paperback version that most college students read, omits all the material Morison put at the end in appendices. >> cheers, >> >> jeremy bangs >> >> leiden >> >> >> >> Robert Gerrity <yankeeancestry@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> For just the reasons you raise, Adm. S E Morison, long U S history professor at Harvard, "translated" the text into readable modern English. His notes are excellent. Copies can be readily found on eBay & amazon, both hardcover & trade paperback. I would agree with you that reading this version first allows you experience a modern conversation, but it is onemediated through Morison's style. Still, you can zip along! >>> >>> The listing below is one example from Abebooks: >>> >>> Of Plymouth Plantation 1620-1647 >>> By William Bradford >>> edited by Samuel Eliot Morison >>> >>> Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1953. Hard Cover. Book Condition: Excellent. Dust Jacket Condition: Good. 8vo - over 7¾" - 9¾" tall. Publisher: Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1953. Book is in excellent condition, owner signed name on first page. DJ is in good condition, some edgewear and a few tears. This is a New Edition: The Complete Text, with Notes and an Introduction by Samuel Eliot Morison. >>> >>> Robert M. Gerrity >>> YANKEE ANCESTRY >>> P. O. Box 2814 >>> Acton, MA 01720 >>> >>> >>> >>>> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:51:20 -0600 >>>> From: smit8698@bellsouth.net >>>> To: mayflower@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: [MFLR] Question about William Bradford's book >>>> >>>> Hello list, >>>> >>>> I would like to know if there is, to anyone's knowledge a >>>> 'contemporary' version, or translation, for lack of a better word, of >>>> William Bradford's book >>>> "Of Plymouth Plantation". I have two of the printed versions, and they >>>> are true to the old language, spelling, etc. That's all well and good, >>>> of course, but I am finding it very tedious to read. Some of it is more >>>> easily understood than the rest, but I find I have to read and re-read >>>> parts of it many times to get the 'gist' of what he is saying. It's >>>> kind of like the King James version of the Bible; while it is readable, >>>> some of it is difficult to decipher because the language is so different >>>> from our modern tongue. I really want to understand all this book has >>>> to say, and I am not sure I am doing that at this point. Please let me >>>> know if there is such a book out there. If there's not, all you >>>> scholars, historians, and writers out there should think about taking on >>>> such a project. I for one would buy it! >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Linda >>>> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. >>> http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 >>> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I see! You are right, it makes perfect sense that way. He was saying " I find it amazing and [worthily] distaste/ful/" ( I can't believe you guys did that!!). Someone else wrote to suggest that wonderful meant 'full of wonder' and immediately I knew she was right, but I still couldn't quite get 'worthily distasted', even though it is obvious to me now. [kind of slow on the uptake, I guess] :-) A glossary would be a fabulous thing in any book that reproduces Bradford's work or any of the other writings of that time period. Thanks for clearing that up. Bangsflynn@cs.com wrote: > It's a nice example, because it doesn't involve any old-fashioned spelling. > "wonderful" here indicates something like one way people now use "amazing" - and not implying something positive. It's wonderful in the sense of inspiring much wonder (like, what the hell were you guys thinking?), and then "worthily distasted" is consistent with that sentiment and not in contradiction to it. > However, if an editor were to put in "what the hell were you guys thinking?" it might be clearer, but it would no longer be Bradford. > nice problem. > Although I haven't seen it, I think that Caleb Johnson has produced a modern (but not modernized) full edition of Bradford in order, and that's likely to be the best available text for ordinary use. It might have a glossary, but I don't know. > > Jeremy Bangs > Leiden > > > > Linda Smith <smit8698@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > >> Thanks for the tip about the Morison book. I haven't seen it, of >> course, but if Jeremy is accurate in his assessment of it, then I would >> agree that it would have been much better to keep it in order just like >> Bradford wrote it. However, if one keeps that in mind and tries to use >> it for reference, it should be a lot of help. It isn't just the >> spelling that is difficult for me; it is the phraseology and the old >> manner of speaking. An example is the sentence from 'one of Mr. >> Weston's letters' : "That you sent no lading in the ship is wonderful, >> and worthily distasted." I believe he is referring to the fact that the >> Mayflower returned to England without being loaded with goods for the >> merchant adventurers, but I still don't understand that sentence. >> 'Wonderful' and 'worthily distasted' seem contradictory to me, so it >> doesn't make sense. . Undoubtedly, that's because I am unfamiliar with >> how those words and phrases were used in the 17th century. There are >> many phrases such as that which contain old terminology that is lost in >> today's vernacular. I wish someone would translate it in the proper >> order, text, etc., just like it was meant to be read, but with today's >> language, spelling, and grammar. >> I wish also that someone would translate the Robinson sermons and other >> related materials the same way. I think it would help a lot in >> understanding the mindset of the day, which, (I agree with Jeremy) was >> VERY important and contains lessons that we would do well to pay >> attention to and learn from today. It could be done in a book in which >> the old and new were side by side, even, so it could be easily >> referenced if desired. At any rate, I'm probably wishing for the moon >> ..... >> >> Thanks again for the Morison tip; I shall purchase a copy! >> >> Bangsflynn@cs.com wrote: >> >>> Samuel Eliot Morison considered the Pilgrims "of slight importance in their own time." He also proclaimed that “The insignificance of the Plymouth Colony in the colonial era is one {issue} upon which almost all American historians are agreed.” >>> >>> (I happen to be in the minority not in agreement there.) >>> >>> His view explains why he re-arranged the text of Bradford's history Of Plymouth Plantation, placing over a quarter of it at the end, thus destroying Bradford's narrative order and explicitly indicating that the religious and financial history Bradford found significant was in Morison's view uninteresting to the modern reader. >>> >>> I haven't decided yet whether or not to modernize the spelling of quotations that will be included in my book on the Pilgrims. I prefer retaining the old spelling. But some people find the barrier that this creates to be off-putting. There is, I think, some value in taking the effort to become familiar with the ways of speech (and thought) that the Pilgrims familiarly used. On the other hand, a friend of mine who is an expert on this period and has both written about it and edited manuscripts thinks that it is in keeping with the spirit of the seventeenth century to modernize the spelling in order, like the Pilgrims, to attempt to tell the story in a plain style. >>> >>> He may be right. But Morison was not, in editing the presentation all out of shape. >>> And to make it worse, the paperback version that most college students read, omits all the material Morison put at the end in appendices. >>> cheers, >>> >>> jeremy bangs >>> >>> leiden >>> >>> >>> >>> Robert Gerrity <yankeeancestry@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> For just the reasons you raise, Adm. S E Morison, long U S history professor at Harvard, "translated" the text into readable modern English. His notes are excellent. Copies can be readily found on eBay & amazon, both hardcover & trade paperback. I would agree with you that reading this version first allows you experience a modern conversation, but it is onemediated through Morison's style. Still, you can zip along! >>>> >>>> The listing below is one example from Abebooks: >>>> >>>> Of Plymouth Plantation 1620-1647 >>>> By William Bradford >>>> edited by Samuel Eliot Morison >>>> >>>> Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1953. Hard Cover. Book Condition: Excellent. Dust Jacket Condition: Good. 8vo - over 7¾" - 9¾" tall. Publisher: Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1953. Book is in excellent condition, owner signed name on first page. DJ is in good condition, some edgewear and a few tears. This is a New Edition: The Complete Text, with Notes and an Introduction by Samuel Eliot Morison. >>>> >>>> Robert M. Gerrity >>>> YANKEE ANCESTRY >>>> P. O. Box 2814 >>>> Acton, MA 01720 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:51:20 -0600 >>>>> From: smit8698@bellsouth.net >>>>> To: mayflower@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: [MFLR] Question about William Bradford's book >>>>> >>>>> Hello list, >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know if there is, to anyone's knowledge a >>>>> 'contemporary' version, or translation, for lack of a better word, of >>>>> William Bradford's book >>>>> "Of Plymouth Plantation". I have two of the printed versions, and they >>>>> are true to the old language, spelling, etc. That's all well and good, >>>>> of course, but I am finding it very tedious to read. Some of it is more >>>>> easily understood than the rest, but I find I have to read and re-read >>>>> parts of it many times to get the 'gist' of what he is saying. It's >>>>> kind of like the King James version of the Bible; while it is readable, >>>>> some of it is difficult to decipher because the language is so different >>>>> from our modern tongue. I really want to understand all this book has >>>>> to say, and I am not sure I am doing that at this point. Please let me >>>>> know if there is such a book out there. If there's not, all you >>>>> scholars, historians, and writers out there should think about taking on >>>>> such a project. I for one would buy it! >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Linda >>>>> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. >>>> http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 >>>> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > Frequently-asked questions may often be answered by visiting the FAQ page for this list at: http://www.craigrich.net/mayfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message